First flight / new gyro pilot = too dangerous

[barnstorm2]

I used to. I still might if I feel good about the machine needing the testing. I would have no problems at all with at the least, looking over the machine and giving you my opinion of it

You are a good man Ron.

.

 

[Penguin]

Cory - Ron is an excellent pilot, generous in his test piloting offers, and is generous with his advice. Take him up on his offer to look it over. You'll be the better for it.

 

[EI-GYRO]

Bensen manuals

Bensen manuals

OK folks,
I have the Operation section of the Bensen manual on JPG format.

I will not attempt to post these on the forum without the explicit permission
of the forum owner, as to do so might be contentious, and I like to behave
properly as a guest of this facility.

However, if those wishing to read it will PM me with an email, (preferably
g-mail) address, I will attempt to send it, as attachments to 2 emails.

Will be away for a day or two, so please be patient.

 

[M._Springer]

Thanks to everyone who commented on the basic gyro flying handbook.

Thanks to everyone who commented on the basic gyro flying handbook.

Ron, I didn't mean to hijack your thread which I think is a good one. Someone mentioned Bensen's pilot manual and my crow hops article so I posted thinking my subject would fit in as we are on the same subject which is new gyro pilot safety.
Marion

 

[okikuma]

Hi Marion,

Writing a gyroplane specific ground school book is a wonderful idea and I'll gladly purchase a signed copy. I'll trust whatever knowledge you write down 100%.

In the mean time, you can still teach Lynette the fundamentals of gyroplane flight and operations through ground instruction. Knowledge is knowledge no matter how it was gained.

Marion? Did you ever posses a Basic or Advance Ground Instructor certificate prior to your CFI? If so, the BGI or AGI never expires so you could sign Lynette off for her written too.

Wayne

 

[clytle374]

I used to. I still might if I feel good about the machine needing the testing. I would have no problems at all with at the least, looking over the machine and giving you my opinion of it

Thanks, if this economy ever straightens out enough I can even consider building I'll be asking for lots of advise. I'll be hanging out and mostly just reading until then.

Cory

 

[anthom]

Marion? Did you ever posses a Basic or Advance Ground Instructor certificate prior to your CFI? If so, the BGI or AGI never expires so you could sign Lynette off for her written too.

Wayne

I do not mean to hijack the thread, or question if it is relevant in this case, but there is a recent experience requirement to exercise the privileges of a ground instructor since 2009. I wasn't aware of it myself till a few years ago, as I had been out of aviation for a while.

§ 61.217 Recent experience requirements.

The holder of a ground instructor certificate may not perform the duties of a ground instructor unless the person can show that one of the following occurred during the preceding 12 calendar months:

(a) Employment or activity as a ground instructor giving pilot, flight instructor, or ground instructor training;

(b) Employment or activity as a flight instructor giving pilot, flight instructor, or ground instructor ground or flight training;

(c) Completion of an approved flight instructor refresher course and receipt of a graduation certificate for that course; or

(d) An endorsement from an authorized instructor certifying that the person has demonstrated knowledge in the subject areas prescribed under §61.213(a)(3) and (a)(4), as appropriate.

[Doc. No. FAA–2006–26661, 74 FR 42562, Aug. 21, 2009]

 

[GyroDel]

Tough love is what is needed for the new gyro builder. There shouldn’t be dancing around trying to make him feel warm and fuzzy when being straight up an honest about his pride and joy needs to be done. This is not judging a bake sale, there is a lot more at stake here. What he is being told could save his life. The time to talk to him is before the inspection, when you’ve got his attention. Not after you just tore apart the work he was so proud of. The pre inspection talk is where you have the chance to explain what you’re looking for and why. I would say that having several inspectors to look it over and compare notes and the sit down and explain the findings with the owner. I say several inspectors the more eyes the less chance of missing anything. Also pull the gyro off to the side away from the main center of activity. The less looking and commenting, plus not putting him in an uncomfortable position of a bunch standing around when he gets any bad news the better. On the other hand if it’s a winner then announce it to the gathering.

Go to any build thread posted by a first time builder and the same thing happens on all of them. When the new builder posts his photos and comments, they get some replies that an experienced builder has noticed something that doesn’t look right. The majority of the posts are accolades and pats on the back telling him what a great job he is doing. When he gets done he is proud and wants to show off his new toy. Who wouldn’t, everyone loved it in his build thread.

Then some a-hole comes along and just rips his baby apart, telling his everything that he has done wrong. Wonder why he gets mad, everybody boosted his ego and this one guy just insulted him.

The biggest sin in build threads is when a new builder starts his thread and says he has never done anything like this before and isn’t a pilot. At some point in the build he decides he has a better way to do a part and put a little more bling, or wants to redesign the landing gear to his liking or material used. This is Experimental and this just my opinion we should not be encouraging new builders to get off of the plans until they gain experience and understand why the plans were made with the design. It’s a proven design that flies and results are predictable.

I am in no way advocating that there should not be congrats posted on build threads it is good to let him know that we are there and if doing a great give some positive reinforcement. But also do what I call being a, “Being a mean SOB in a nice sort of way”. Someone has to be the mean sob and tell him what’s wrong but do it in a way that doesn’t make his want to cuss the messenger.

 

[choppergabor]

Ron, I didn't mean to hijack your thread which I think is a good one. Someone mentioned Bensen's pilot manual and my crow hops article so I posted thinking my subject would fit in as we are on the same subject which is new gyro pilot safety.
Marion

I did Marion. After reading your article a lot of new information sunk in finally. I did appreciate the hands on experience you have and the way you had approached the matter. Easy to understand and very very useful. Thank you.

 

[choppergabor]

I just uploaded the Bensen manual to my website for all of you who want to read it. Downloadable at the bottom of the main page. No I am not advocating self training so hush! I am simply giving a tool for the ones who have no other means....

 

[Thechap]

Gabe,

I just downloaded it from your site. Thanks brother!

Bryan

 

[M._Springer]

Wayne and Thomas, I never held any ground

Wayne and Thomas, I never held any ground

instructor certificates, just a CFI-gyro. I do plan to verbally give my granddaughter all the ground school info I can when she is here. Problem is, she lives in No. Ca. and we only see her a couple of times a year.

Gabor, I'm glad you found the crow hops article useful. I still have a copy or two of Bensen's pilot manual from the days when I was a Bensen dealer. His manual got my husband and I through self training safely back when there were no instructors. It takes lots of self discipline to self instruct...those that lacked discipline self-destructed .
Marion

 

[anthom]

It takes lots of self discipline to self instruct...those that lacked discipline self-destructed .
Marion

That is a fantastic quote!! Look forward to your book!

 

[choppergabor]

Gabe,

I just downloaded it from your site. Thanks brother!

Bryan

You are welcome my brotha! And you too all of who had downloaded it. The site got pretty busy as I see the traffic on the download amount So I guess it was a good thing after all. Hey and no membership nor credit card number required either LOL

 

[Steve McGowan]

Pitiful!

Pitiful!

Half of you don't know what the hell your talking about,, the other half is gonna lose everything they own, trying to say they do..

There are CFI's here trying to keep people outta trouble, disrespectful statements are made towards them.. We Instruct Grown Ups,,,,,they have a life, and Can afford the gyros they want, and they go home, don't listen, and get killed.

RAF even kept the blades until the person was singed off, and then that person would break the rules and they're word promised to the CFI that instructed them, then the CFI's get the Blame...

YES it HAPPENS, but you can't "FIX Stupid".. And I'm saying that about myself, because I was also self trained,, BUT very Lucky, almost 30 years ago.

As I said in another thread, the Feds are monitoring forums,,,,Y'all keep talkin

"They Won't Be Happy,, Till Your UN-HAPPY."

But Hey, don't believe me,,, all I know is ,,,, "YOU'VE been told"

 

[Aussie_Paul]

Sad...

Sad...

Half of you don't know what the hell your talking about,, the other half is gonna lose everything they own, trying to say they do..

There are CFI's here trying to keep people outta trouble, disrespectful statements are made towards them.. We Instruct Grown Ups,,,,,they have a life, and Can afford the gyros they want, and they go home, don't listen, and get killed.

RAF even kept the blades until the person was singed off, and then that person would break the rules and they're word promised to the CFI that instructed them, then the CFI's get the Blame...

YES it HAPPENS, but you can't "FIX Stupid".. And I'm saying that about myself, because I was also self trained,, BUT very Lucky, almost 30 years ago.

As I said in another thread, the Feds are monitoring forums,,,,Y'all keep talkin

"They Won't Be Happy,, Till Your UN-HAPPY."

But Hey, don't believe me,,, all I know is ,,,, "YOU'VE been told"

Totally agree Steve.

Aussie Paul.

 

[SandL]

Well here's an out of the box thought
after a few gyro/aircraft first flight crashes and the option to use a CFI/ test pilot avoided for one reason or another perhaps the airfield owner/operator could also have an influence.
For example If I owned/managed an airport I do not want accidents/crashes, fires etc, it's bad publicity. When an aircraft or gyro takes off they will often have to book out with the airfield operator to say where they are going, SOB and pilots name. They will then start up and make a radio call sometimes to advise traffic, sometimes to request permission. Maybe at all these points there is an option for the airfield owner to put the brakes on before allowing a potential crash to take place on his field. Maybe it could be in published airfield rules.
Maybe the airfield owners can step in saying no "student first flights" on my field, this could cover all ultralights, fixed wing, gyros and experimentals, that way the gyro hanger buddys are not the bad guys and can still keep a healthy build relationship going. Might help save someones life, might add an extra hinderance to those wanting to risk their lives, the sport gyroplane image and their host airfields reputation. I still think the carrot is the way to go. But there should also be check hurdles to jump if you chose to take on hign risks. Airfield owner can co-operate by asking the pilot to sign to say he is aware of the accident stats and he is aware that he is taking on a high risk venture, possibly having to pay for the crash truck on standby which should be charged at a higher price than a CFI would charge to test fly it for you. !
just thoughts

 

[barnstorm2]

SandL,

I think your ideas are good ones, in a more knowledgeable world.

In my experience many airports do not welcome gyroplanes and few are knowledgable obout our issues.

It is much easier to ban all non n-numbered gyros/ultralights then to work up and enforce polices for an aircraft that makes up less than 1% of the flying population.

Some small field owners by do some hand-holding, as you suggest but most operators I know of are mostly interested in managing other aspects of the field.

A number of airports ban gyro fly-in events thanks to our bad safety record.

If an airport receives Fed $ then they must allow certain operations from ALL N-numbered aircraft so that would cause issues with airport specific policies.

The FAA is looking for the community to self-regulate and reduce the accident rate or they will bring forth new rules that could throw the baby out with the bath water.

Endorsing self-training in any way undoes many positive advances with the FAA and our sport.

Through education and socal pressure PPO deaths are way down, can we do the same for untrained gyro pilots??

Taking a firm stance on getting people to acquire at least a solo sign-off before crow-hops, even when not required by law is a good first step.

I hope you and others will continue to post ideas on what we can do to self-regulate our sport and reduce self-training and flight-testing of aircraft by low-time pilots or pilots without Class/Cat certification.

.
.

 

[choppergabor]

Not feasible and banning and regulating will hurt more the sport than a few self destructing grown ups! My experience is that publicly founded municipal even a privately owned but open for public airport has no way of preventing accidents due to first flight accidents nor should it be their responsibility!
In this country we are becoming accustomed not taking personal responsibility for our actions and it had penetrated the flying community too. DAMN IT!
If you play with fire and burn your hands that is all your fault! Anyone with at least a room temperature IQ level can see the danger of not getting training and not having at least expert eyes look over a newly built machine deserves what the outcome will bring.
It is called the thinning the herd! 21st century damn it! Internet, cell phones, iPods and computers and an active (very active) gyro forum. Just how much more opportunity one needs to contact, ask, or learn about this????? I don't want to seem harsh about one's misfortune but geeeeezzzzzzzzzz. Should we hold their wiener while they pee too? OK I guess I am outta this one!!!
Marion said it the the best God bless her: "the impatient will self destruct" !

 

[Master Roda]

should we hold their wiener while they pee too?

BaHhaHaaahaaaa!!!!!

No need to hold mine.....I just peed my pants laughing!!