Glassy Water Landing in a Gyro?

[RogerB]

TAG seems to have messed with the idea a few years ago

Not sure if that’s a stock 100hp 912 or if it’s modded

 

[RogerB]

Thread drift........
I always wanted to build a ground effect vehicle, there is some real grey area there, it has to be registered as a boat and cannot sustain flight out of ground effect. Many have enough power to go fast enough for serious "Hops" like being able to head straight for an island, or peninsula and translate speed to altitude to hop up to 300ft. for over a mile....

I really think the only feasible float gyro would be a flying boat fuselage, like a modified "J2F Duck" without the wings.....

This one comes to mind

They went bankrupt in 2022 but the plans are still available, used to be a fan of there’s before I got into flying

 

[Aerofoam]

Where would you put the wingtip floats?

You would have to have small outboard sponsons.

 

[Doug Riley]

I attended Oshkosh with my Bensen gyroglider way back in 1972 (I was 16). Good times.

That year, a gyro builder showed up with a float gyro that employed a large central float and sponsons on tubular outriggers. He didn't fly it there that I saw, nor did I hear any more about it. The monofloat probably came off a larger plane. It looked incredibly heavy. There have been many such one-offs over the years.

I'm not opposed to float gyros. I intended to put that old Bensen of mine on floats, and only mounted wheels "temporarily" to get flying.

What I am advocating is experimentation with models before committing money (and your mortal body) to a concept that hasn't been systematically explored. Build a rotorless scale model. Stick a pivot rod through it side-to-side at the CG location (which must be adjusted to the same as predicted for the real craft). "Fly" it out a car window or in the back of a pickup, allowing it to pivot on the rod. You want it to fly "straight as an arrow," not flipping either nose-up or nose-down.

Among the more spectacular mishaps involving float "drag over" in float gyros are (1) my friend Harlan Gage's crash; (2) an uncommanded dive to just above the water experienced by Igor Bensen himself in a towed gyro with boat hull; and (3) a full in-flight inversion that happened to a Cierva-type machine in the 1930's. In that last one, the 'giro righted itself and the pilot survived, possibly thanks partly to its fully-articulated rotor head. Our underslung, teetering rotors go positively berserk when loaded the wrong way in inverted flight.

 

[Abid]

This was the first MTO in the US that was on floats. It was based in Edgewater, Fl, I don't believe much came of it.
Victor Agadzi in Pensacola really worked the concept in his MTO making numerous mods most significantly upgrading power to an Edge 155HP powerplant. Even with this powerplant, my observation of videos is that it took an inordinate amount of time to get off the water. He has now sold it and is moving on to a Seamax fixed wing amphib. I think the difficulties relating to gyros on floats are numerous as have been mentioned here. Starting with a very draggy aircraft and making it more so. I think the increased difficulty of glassy water landings is yet another consideration.
There's also another adage about aircraft on floats that I will vouch for, that is if you add floats to an airplane you double the maintenance, and if you put it in saltwater, you double the maintenance again! Flying seaplanes is a labor of love, once you've made your first water landing and takeoff it's pretty addicting, just like gyros.

EdgePerformance As

Victor Agadzi’s tricked out Gyro with EP155HP 😉

www.facebook.com

It was claimed to be 155 HP. I will place it at struggling 134 HP. Just my opinion.

 

[Abid]

TAG seems to have messed with the idea a few years ago

Not sure if that’s a stock 100hp 912 or if it’s modded

A standard 912ULS won't even get you 200 FPM on a float gyro. My God this guy landed faster than I land a taildragger and longer in that gyro. That background music was kinda painful.

 

[Doug Riley]

Abid -- apparently, speeding up pop songs is a "thing" in the TikTok world -- chipmunk voices and all. Yeah, it's painful.

The landings mystify me. One of the coolest things about gyros is their ability to land at zero airspeed. This pilot seems reluctant to do a good, firm flare, instead executing what would be a run-on landing in a wheeled gyro. Coming in with that much water speed would seem to increase the chances of tripping over your floats.

 

[loftus]

TAG seems to have messed with the idea a few years ago

Not sure if that’s a stock 100hp 912 or if it’s modded

Despite the criticism, I don't notice any instability issues in that video. I agree that traditional landings could be slower, but looking at that video I suspect a glassy water landing is feasible. Remember, that despite a sustained airspeed and pitch with a descent rate of 50-100fpm on approach, the moment one touches down the stick can be pulled back, braking very quickly in the water. I also like the way they addressed the landing gear mechanism.

 

[loftus]

It was claimed to be 155 HP. I will place it at struggling 134 HP. Just my opinion.

Most of Edge's performance claims are backed by dyno numbers and comparing them to stock engines. My 912ULS with Edge EFI they show 108 HP on the dyno.
I think the power issues are a problem more on the water till the aircraft breaks free. Once airborne I think the floats provide some lift so to some degree the effect of the drag is countered. This at least seems to be the case in the Aircam when flying performance numbers are compared to the wheeled versions, they are not significantly worse.

 

[Abid]

Most of Edge's performance claims are backed by dyno numbers and comparing them to stock engines. My 912ULS with Edge EFI they show 108 HP on the dyno.

Ronnie Smith did the engine for Victor not Edge Performance. Anyway, there is a big difference when a trained Edge Performance person does the engine conversion or its done by a mechanic buying the stuff from them. Those are very different imo. All I can say is Victor's gyro never seemed to me like a 154 HP engine equipped machine even one up.

 

[Abid]

Most of Edge's performance claims are backed by dyno numbers and comparing them to stock engines. My 912ULS with Edge EFI they show 108 HP on the dyno.
I think the power issues are a problem more on the water till the aircraft breaks free. Once airborne I think the floats provide some lift so to some degree the effect of the drag is countered. This at least seems to be the case in the Aircam when flying performance numbers are compared to the wheeled versions, they are not significantly worse.

Floats do not provide as much lift as people make it out to be. In wings, in ASTM standard for airplanes we are allowed inertia relief of 1/2 the wing weight. This comes in handy specially when your fuel tanks are in the wings but you can conservatively only take half the weight off for inertia relief. I doubt floats can do better than wings. I would say you should take 0.4 x float weights for relief (40%). Phil Lockwood told me the same tale about the AirCam floats, and I laughed. He is being very optimistic and if he ever goes for certification no DER will go for 100% inertia relief for the floats. I did the engineering work on Legend Super Cub floats and to be conservative, only took 25% of float weight as relief due to lift floats may produce.

 

[loftus]

Floats do not provide as much lift as people make it out to be. In wings, in ASTM standard for airplanes we are allowed inertia relief of 1/2 the wing weight. This comes in handy specially when your fuel tanks are in the wings but you can conservatively only take half the weight off for inertia relief. I doubt floats can do better than wings. I would say you should take 0.4 x float weights for relief (40%). Phil Lockwood told me the same tale about the AirCam floats, and I laughed. He is being very optimistic and if he ever goes for certification no DER will go for 100% inertia relief for the floats. I did the engineering work on Legend Super Cub floats and to be conservative, only took 25% of float weight as relief due to lift floats may produce.

I just know that one up with 50% fuel I can come close to matching my climb rate compared to on wheels and considering the floats add 300 pounds I don't find it effects my climb rate more than about 10-15%, still manage about 1700fpm, and no effect on single engine performance where I can still climb at 350-400 fpm even 2 up. I just demonstrated this last week with my CFI doing my BFR. So I won't argue specific numbers but it's not as noticeable as one would expect. 'll take you up sometime and show you. My point is only that I suspect the drag effect on the water is more pronounced than in climb.
You are correct on Victor's conversion being part Ronnie Smith which he did first, then went a step further with the Edge. No idea how the Ronnie Smith big bore produces more or less than the Edge. We'd have to ask Victor himself what his performance numbers were.

 

[Abid]

I just know that one up with 50% fuel I can come close to matching my climb rate compared to on wheels and considering the floats add 300 pounds I don't find it effects my climb rate more than about 10-15%, still manage about 1700fpm, and no effect on single engine performance where I can still climb at 350-400 fpm even 2 up. I just demonstrated this last week with my CFI doing my BFR. So I won't argue specific numbers but it's not as noticeable as one would expect. 'll take you up sometime and show you. My point is only that I suspect the drag effect on the water is more pronounced than in climb.
You are correct on Victor's conversion being part Ronnie Smith which he did first, then went a step further with the Edge. No idea how the Ronnie Smith big bore produces more or less than the Edge. We'd have to ask Victor himself what his performance numbers were.

Sure would love to go sometime. Searey's IP is being bought back by some American investors. So, Chinese will only be able to do Chinese Searey for China and they (Americans) will establish a new company (not Progressive Aerodyne) to make Searey for US, Canadian and Australian markets. I think it's not a done deal but close to being done because I was approached to help them with FAA audit again.

 

[GyrOZprey]

A standard 912ULS won't even get you 200 FPM on a float gyro. My God this guy landed faster than I land a taildragger and longer in that gyro. That background music was kinda painful.

The "912" on the Blue gyro in the flying clips was the 135-145Hp StevePaulet mod (very popular in Aussie gyros) - note 4 blade prop too!
The "blue-cow" cammo gyro in the clips showing Neil's elegant engineering solution to gear up/down needs is the one in FL - Danny Kelly's machine.
Neil has built/ delivered at least 2 more of these Amphib TAGs in the last year -- they do fly well with the 912 SP mod or a 915!