First flight / new gyro pilot = too dangerous

[choppergabor]

Copyrights?

Might that look like we are encouraging self-training?

Does that really help with a new aircraft that has never flown or is that more for a new pilot that has never flown a gyro?

I think a pilot should reach proficiency before flight testing a new aircraft.

I have reasonable flight time and I would not be looking forward to flight testing a new aircraft even if I built it.

This is on the public PRA download archive:

[url]https://www.pra.org/publicdl/FAA%20Related%20Documents/faa%20flight%20test%20handbook.pdf[/URL]

Ok so under that logic they are better off with no knowledge than having at least some? Who has better chances to pull it off Tim? As for copyright? I am in the industry to know 10% change in the manual will render it completely legal. Even I could do it with my limited English. So it might just worth to take a swipe at it...of course if we really shooting for trying to make things safer. Knowledge is definitely a useful tool. All the guys in the boonies with no one around them for hundreds of miles this could be a lifesaver....just my opinion. And you know me I do NOT encourage flying without formal training.

 

[BUD ONEAL]

All good thoughts,However herding cats is easier .Most everything put forth here has been tried with not much in results. Was good to start with never any lasting results. Most are to impatient and want to fly,now. As said you can lead the horse to water-----.

 

[barnstorm2]

Ok so under that logic they are better off with no knowledge than having at least some? Who has better chances to pull it off Tim? As for copyright? I am in the industry to know 10% change in the manual will render it completely legal. Even I could do it with my limited English. So it might just worth to take a swipe at it...of course if we really shooting for trying to make things safer. Knowledge is definitely a useful tool. All the guys in the boonies with no one around them for hundreds of miles this could be a lifesaver....just my opinion. And you know me I do NOT encourage flying without formal training.

I don't know, that is why I am asking.

10? Dr. B has passed so he won't mind, but I would not be willing to upset Marion.

I don't know the mindset of those that will fly a new machine untrained. I understand impatience. However, I got a solo sign off before I flew my UL gyro, even though it was not legally required.

I understand your statement I think, some help is better than none.

The devils advocate in me does not like the idea of helping someone have another excuse to self train though.

No easy answers.

The deaths from PPO have been very greatly reduced thanks to education and social pressure, could the same be done for pilots that don't have solo skills that plan to test fly a new built gyro?

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[StanFoster]

I am not condoning self training, especially in this day and age where there are instructors you can go to or now have them come to you. I did follow Dr. Bensens training manual, and the biggest surprise to me was there wasn't any surprise at all. You MUST be patient and methodical and let your senses talk to you. That's the kicker, too masny people are not patient enoughz, so sewlf training is dangerous and its too easy to find some training now than back when I was all alone in Illinois. Stan

 

[gyromike]

The question is, when someone builds what is obviously a gyro, then uses the "wright bros exception" to get out of a cat/class add on or a solo sign-off is that abuse of the rule??

.

How so?

If the rule clearly states that a cat/class rating for Experimentals is not required, how is not having one an abuse of the rule?

 

[choppergabor]

Yes I agree with you Tim there is no easy answer to it. Stan is right I have heard that the Bensen training manual is a great one. I have never seen it myself so I can't attest to it. Marion's article is just excellent excellent publication and I am almost positive she wouldn't mind having it available for the one's who need it.
I am not big on self training either. But when that is your only means of achieving your dreams.....who am I to judge? As for flying a newly built machine.....well it is always risky even for experienced pilots. I can only speak for myself. I needed to muster enough guts to ask Greg to test fly mine.
Ron had offered me to do it too it's only that he wasn't there at the event. I know I had a knot in my stomach although I knew I had tightened every bolt and made sure everything worked properly. Still seeing someone else risking his life......well.....my hat is off to all of you out there. You have big hearths and balls!!!
I just hope some day to pay forward what I received from all of you who had pointed things out that were off. Yes I know I am one of those who had built a one of the kind. Guilty as charged. Some follow some lead! I ain't a follower, sorry.....hard headed bastard here. Anyways. I am grateful for all the help from the Morons too. What a great bunch...!!??
This could be the ultimate setup for greenhorns like me. But the reality is that not all of them can live close by places like Wauchula. So my thinking was if we could at least help them by providing the most possible reliable information....maybe we could raise the chances of a successful new member making it relatively safely into the air. Ok now go ahead and stone me to death LOL

 

[barnstorm2]

How so?

If the rule clearly states that a cat/class rating for Experimentals is not required, how is not having one an abuse of the rule?

I don't know that is why I put the question out.

If the intent was to allow someone who builds a machine so unique that it does not neatly fall into any existing category and class to be able to fly it with out a catch 22...

Then does the rule in "spirit" apply to a machine that is clearly a standard airplane or gyro?

Perhaps it does? Or perhaps it is a loophole that lets some people fly a craft legally that they don't cat/class training for, even when in all honesty it would be that cat/class if it where certified?

I don't know what scope the rule makers had in mind.

Perhaps it is already a non-issue.

If gyros are being given airworthines certs with a phase I restriction on non-cat/class pilots then we have another ball game.

I wonder if this is some add-in added by a DAR as appropriate, or a new boiler plate that must be used?

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[Mike484]

The PRA should come up with a training manual for beginners on how to go about you desire to fly gyro's from start to finish. This manual can have some advertising in it for the gyro community. This will offset some of the cost of the manual. The newbie's can purchase this book from the PRA for a small fee.

The manual should explain all of the stuff from A to Z like "getting someone experience to look your machine over for proper build techniques" and such. Newbie's could use it to get many of there questions answered.

Brent, I believe you are on the right track. If the information can be compiled by the right people and correct information put into it then I believe it will hold a very high value. Currently how does a newbie learn about our sport? Information he had to dig through the internet himself to find? Is it correct and updated information? Or information from people that don't have the knowlege that the think they have? Giving proper information to a newbie can help him determine the correct path to follow and to make the right desicions to get into our sport and to be able to make decisions based on FACTS and TRUE EXPERIENCE, rather than gather information that may be incorrect, out dated, or unreliable. The PRA should take an active stance to provide this information a booklet or packet.

 

[David Hoover]

As a brand new potential gyroplane pilot/owner, I wanted to share that I think Brent Drake's idea is an excellent one. I've bought most of the books I could find on gyroplanes, scoured the internet for months at a time, incessantly quizzed members of this forum, and I still have lots of unanswered questions. It would be great to have some type of booklet that would list all of the things Brent was talking about. It would save people interested in the sport countless hours, which may draw more people to participate. I can tell you that as a person new to flying, all of the information I have had to learn and attempt to find has been mind boggling. I am sure there are areas of the sport I haven't even learned at all. Even just listing the basics, such as the steps you should take to get your Sport Pilot certificate would be extremely helpful. Such as what steps you should take before seeking instruction, should you pass the written test first, should you purchase a machine before finishing lessons, ways to finance a Gyroplane purchase, insurance carriers and cost, etc. Everyone I have talked to from the forum and fly-in I attended have been EXTREMELY helpful and generous. I have enjoyed the learning process and internet research, however it may be overwhelming to some and may keep them from participating.

Thank you to so many of you on here who have answered my questions and volunteered your services!

 

[barnstorm2]

The PRA should take an active stance to provide this information a booklet or packet.

If someone creates this, the PRA will promote it.

We just need a volunteer(s) to step forward and make it happen.

.

 

[GyroRon]

David, good posting.

You know something we COULD do... If people here want to create a posting with all of that info, a kind of "the top ten things you should know about gyroplane ownership and flying" or call it whatever you'd want.... If someone were to take the time to create something real good. We could perhaps make a place on this forum for it, and make it a sticky, where it is always the first thread in that area, etc.. Wouldn't be a book, but it would be here for newbies to see and read

As a brand new potential gyroplane pilot/owner, I wanted to share that I think Brent Drake's idea is an excellent one. I've bought most of the books I could find on gyroplanes, scoured the internet for months at a time, incessantly quizzed members of this forum, and I still have lots of unanswered questions. It would be great to have some type of booklet that would list all of the things Brent was talking about. It would save people interested in the sport countless hours, which may draw more people to participate. I can tell you that as a person new to flying, all of the information I have had to learn and attempt to find has been mind boggling. I am sure there are areas of the sport I haven't even learned at all. Even just listing the basics, such as the steps you should take to get your Sport Pilot certificate would be extremely helpful. Such as what steps you should take before seeking instruction, should you pass the written test first, should you purchase a machine before finishing lessons, ways to finance a Gyroplane purchase, insurance carriers and cost, etc. Everyone I have talked to from the forum and fly-in I attended have been EXTREMELY helpful and generous. I have enjoyed the learning process and internet research, however it may be overwhelming to some and may keep them from participating.

Thank you to so many of you on here who have answered my questions and volunteered your services!

 

[choppergabor]

david, good posting.

You know something we could do... If people here want to create a posting with all of that info, a kind of "the top ten things you should know about gyroplane ownership and flying" or call it whatever you'd want.... If someone were to take the time to create something real good. We could perhaps make a place on this forum for it, and make it a sticky, where it is always the first thread in that area, etc.. Wouldn't be a book, but it would be here for newbies to see and read

amen to that brother!!!

 

[Master Roda]

All good thoughts,However herding cats is easier .

I'm a problem solver. I love that saying (harder than herding cats).
So, my problem solving brain says "use a laser pointer and you WILL BE herding cats!!!".

Yes,yes....nothing to do with this thread. Random thoughts, my apologies for intruding.

RE: I think a sticky thread as suggested is a great idea.

 

[NoWingsAttached]

As I too often do, I am posting a response w/o having taken the time to read all the posts, so this may be a redundant thought. I am also probably way out in left field by now (I'm sure many of you think I am anyway, no matter what the circumstances) , the thread has probably taken many twists and turns and by now my response to the initiating posts is likely outdated.

Regardless of experience and credentials, I sure wouldn't want to test fly anyone else's build if I didn't have up-close, personal knowledge of the project, and/or the builder and his capabilities.

That isn't always possible for everyone's project, so happily we have this forum. It helps a lot if a builder venturing into unknown/unfamiliar/altogether new territory posts his progress on this forum, so others can spot errors, weaknesses, etc and give a tip or helpful nudge.

I think some folks don't take enough advantage of that here. If builders cant' take a helpful thought, or take exception and lash out, that is unfortunate. I know I am pretty defensive, as most builders go, but I really try to keep an open mind and think about comments over and over again.

I think what we do, building and flying experimental aircraft, should be treated like kids swimming: Never do it alone, always have a swim buddy with you, and always keep them safe, and they are to keep you safe.

No one has the time to monitor every step of someone else's project, but everyone has the time to stop and take a photo of each step of his own build, and posting it here for public view is a pretty good way to keep things on course. This helps keep your build honest, and helps you from forgetting critical components - like cotter keys in rotor heads.

I guess I could go on and on writing more about this, I have so much more to say about it, but that probably says enough for the moment. And the time is better spent actually reading the good thoughts of others ALREADY posted.

And I found myself scratching my head, too, wondering what could have gone wrong with the IL gyro, what with him coming from such a highly-respected group of significantly experienced gyronauts. It's not like he was isolated and had no resources available to help him out, right?

 

[GyroRon]

Its a whole other issue, whether a pilot would be willing to test fly someone elses gyro. I myself have done it many times and as of late have not been too keen to do that as I did before..... way too much risk and no real reward.

The point I am trying to drive home here, is if your a new gyro pilot, or a very low time inexperienced gyro pilot, in my opinon it would be very smart of you to......

1. bring your machine to as many experienced people as needed to collect their thoughts as to if you did a proper job designing and or constructing the machine. You might be lucky enough to be able to have those experienced people come to you... either way have your machine inspected and know it is up to par.

some here have taken it slightly off track by discussing how some people don't want to hear constructive advise about their pride and joy..... This is true! But my point is the builder / owner / should SEEK OUT this constructive advise, and welcome it, good with the bad.

And this isn't just for newly built gyros... It could be a used gyro you bought off someone who had it for sale here, or on barnstomers, or ebay, etc... There is no telling what could be wrong with it, even if it has flown hundreds of hours with previous owners.

I was asked to inspect and test fly a gyro at Mentone, for someone who lives in florida and couldn't make it. He had already had a past PRA board member and popular gyro CFI inspect it and even crow hop it, and that person had given it a thumbs up. Upon my inspection I found many things that were wrong with the gyro...... The fuel line was so cracked and brittle I was sure it was ready to come apart. The control system was binding and hitting the seat. the belt for the redrive was dry rotted. the tires were dry rotted. the whole gyro looked like it had been left outside in the rain and all the aluminum had a layer of corrosion on it. These were the biggest issues, and needless to say, I didn't bother even flying it. The buyer was told it had flown before and was ready to be flown now as is and it was far from it. This buyer was smart enough to ask for more experienced eyes before even purchasing.

2. If Possible, try to have the gyro test flown. Yes its alot to ask of someone else to risk their lives to fly your new machine. Even just a high speed taxi / takeoff run with the gyro getting light on the wheels will identify alot about a machine. If the machine was built right, and it shows, most experienced pilots would be willing to at least put the machine through ground trials and possibly even a crow hop..... If no one is willing to fly your machine, then that is a clear sign that something ain't right about it!

 

[Redbaron]

The deaths from PPO have been very greatly reduced thanks to education and social pressure, could the same be done for pilots that don't have solo skills that plan to test fly a new built gyro?

Why do instructors teach in gyros that are capable of ppo? Why don't instructors teach the dangers of flying in such death traps. Its almost like going to your local airport and having the instructor put 100 lbs of lead in the tail of your 172 and saying you can do it, just a little more practice. Doug Riley seems like the only real PROPER instructor. Fire away.

 

[cgmg]

OK Jeff, I'm going to fire away at you, as you requested.

I've flown with seven instructors in my flying time, and six of those seven all addressed the dangers of unstable gyros. With the seventh, it was a refresher hour in my type of aircraft, and I've never spoken with him since. He doesn't post much, so I don't know where he is on unstable gyros.

My wife flew with an additional instructor that I haven't, and he also preaches the danger of unstable gyros.

Based on what people I think highly of have said here on the forum, there are several others who talk about the dangers of unstable gyros.

So that's seven instructors who I personally know discuss the dangers of unstable gyros, plus several more I would bet a load of money fit the bill.

How many instructors have you flown with, or have had enough dialogue with to make the kind of knee-jerk statement you just made about only one instructor being a true instructor?

You might want to consider editing your post. It doesn't show you in a very favorable light, and is a great dis-service to a lot of well-versed instructors out there.

 

[Redbaron]

OK Jeff, I'm going to fire away at you, as you requested.

I've flown with seven instructors in my flying time, and six of those seven all addressed the dangers of unstable gyros. With the seventh, it was a refresher hour in my type of aircraft, and I've never spoken with him since. He doesn't post much, so I don't know where he is on unstable gyros.

My wife flew with an additional instructor that I haven't, and he also preaches the danger of unstable gyros.

Based on what people I think highly of have said here on the forum, there are several others who talk about the dangers of unstable gyros.

So that's seven instructors who I personally know discuss the dangers of unstable gyros, plus several more I would bet a load of money fit the bill.

How many instructors have you flown with, or have had enough dialogue with to make the kind of knee-jerk statement you just made about only one instructor being a true instructor?

You might want to consider editing your post. It doesn't show you in a very favorable light, and is a great dis-service to a lot of well-versed instructors out there.

Not all instructors are created equally. good nite.

 

[Vance]

The deaths from PPO have been very greatly reduced thanks to education and social pressure, could the same be done for pilots that don't have solo skills that plan to test fly a new built gyro?

Why do instructors teach in gyros that are capable of ppo? Why don't instructors teach the dangers of flying in such death traps. Its almost like going to your local airport and having the instructor put 100 lbs of lead in the tail of your 172 and saying you can do it, just a little more practice. Doug Riley seems like the only real PROPER instructor. Fire away.

Below are some of the CFIs I have flown with who speak out against unstable gyroplanes.

1. Terry Brandt
2. Steve McGowan
3. Jim Mayfield
4. Terry Eiland
5. Ernie Boyette
6. Roy
7. Greg Gremminger
8. J.R. Stark
9. Michael Burton
10. Chris Burgess

All of these CFIs risked their lives to help me be a safer pilot.

Perhaps if you took some instruction Jeff; you would have a better idea of what CFIs are teaching and you might even learn something about flying.

In my opinion they all take safety very seriously.

I feel that perhaps you think because it worked out for you that self training is perfectly safe.

In my opinion you increased the chances of getting hurt and or rolling over your aircraft dramatically by not getting proper training.

I feel you are less safe today because of the things you have still not learned.

This is just my opinion and I am not a CFI.

I have no desire to get in a debate with anyone who feels that self training is the safest way to learn to fly or hear about the people who self trained and have been flying safely for 40 years.

Stated simply; in my opinion there is risk in flying a gyroplane and self training is one of many ways to elevate that risk.

Not every one dies that self trains and not everyone dies who flies an unstable gyroplane.

Not all instructors are good.

Thank you, Vance

 

[GyroRon]

The deaths from PPO have been very greatly reduced thanks to education and social pressure, could the same be done for pilots that don't have solo skills that plan to test fly a new built gyro?

Why do instructors teach in gyros that are capable of ppo? Why don't instructors teach the dangers of flying in such death traps. Its almost like going to your local airport and having the instructor put 100 lbs of lead in the tail of your 172 and saying you can do it, just a little more practice. Doug Riley seems like the only real PROPER instructor. Fire away.

Jeff, your a example of the type of person I am talking about in this thread. From what I know of you, you have had one short flight in a two place as a passenger, with limited time at the controls. You never had anything that would be considered training. You also built a gyro from plans downloaded off the internet, and completed it and have been flying it, without it ever being looked over by a experienced gyro builder, or having had it test flown by someone experienced either.

Now I will admit, you seem to have done okay. But honestly dude.... you have to admit, it was pretty freaking ignorant to do it as you did, seeing as unlike many here that don't have another gyro within 200 miles of their home, you have 2 very experienced gyro people less than 30 miles away.