Greetings from Tucson

[spaceman spiff]

Hi guys and gals,

Just got an old Air Command auto gyro (pre- horz stab). It has been sitting out in a friends back yard for 15 years, so it is a bit weathered, but has only a few flights on it. Don't know much about these beasts, just seen a few pics on PRA so i have a whole bunch of questions to ask before i start tearing it down for restoration.

are there still folks flying a 20+ year old one like mine?
does air command have a kit so i can add a stab?
longer tail boom?

anyway thanks in advance for any advice.

Spiff

 

[gyromike]

Welcome aboard Joe.

Yes people are still flying older machines (provided they're in proper mechanical condition)
Yes, you can (and should) get the stabilizer kit from Air Command.
And yes, you can (and should) get a longer tailboom from Air Command.

But if it's been sitting out in the weather for 15 years, you need to find an experienced builder in your area to help you go through it completely.

 

[PW_Plack]

Spiff,

At one time, Air Commands were banned in England for a high fatality rate. The company responded, did the right thing, redesigned to solve the major aerodynamic issues, and offered a retrofit kit to owners at a very low price. I believe it's still available.

You may be looking at replacing some parts anyway. I'd start by seeing if the upgrade kits are still available. I think they were about $1200 US.

 

[spaceman spiff]

Banned?!!!

Not a comforting word to hear as a beginner!

 

[GyroRon]

You need to completely tear the gyro apart. Clean and inspect each tube for cracks and corrosion. Then repaint those tubes.

The rotor head should be sent back to Aircommand to be rebuilt.

The engine should be shipped to a rotax certified mechanic to have all the seals and gaskets replaced. This is very important. A bad seal or gasket and the engine will run lean and will quit running. I would say the muffler will likely need replacing as well.

You need all new tires and tubes. New bushings in the control stick assembly under the seat. New rod ends for the control push tubes - these need to be the type used for aircraft and can be purchased from Aircommand.

All the nuts and bolts should be replaced for safetys sake. Rudder cables inspected, all new fuel lines. New rubber carb sockets. Carbs rebuilt.

The most important part of the rebuild is adding Aircommands Center Line Thrust installation kit. This involves raising the seat and front end higher up the mast and flipping the engine so the sparkplugs are on top. I will attach a pic of a older aircommand like yours that has had the CLT conversion recently done to it.

You also need to order the extended tail boom and horizontal stab kit.

The prop is totally shot. Replace it with a nice Ivo or Warp Drive prop.

Measure the blades by themselves and then the Hub bar. 25 foot blades would be the longest you would want to use on that light of a machine.

This gyro as configured is very unstable. It can easily bunt over. The CLT kit is very much a needed item for this machine. I can't stress that enough. With the CLT kit the gyro is very nice and safe - as long as the rest of the restoration is done properly.

None of my business, but I hope you didn't pay much for that thing!!! It will need at least 3000-4000$ worth of professional work and parts, and alot of your time - sanding, painting, cuting, drilling, shipping, ordering, etc... etc... to get it airworthy.

 

[ben]

hey joe welcome to a great sport

 

[barnstorm2]

are there still folks flying a 20+ year old one like mine?
does air command have a kit so i can add a stab?
longer tail boom?

anyway thanks in advance for any advice.

Spiff

Spiff,

You are getting good advice here and in Chris's thread.

I have a few tidbits to add to lighen your heart!

First if you get the CLT upgrade kit you will get alot of new parts in it as well as a new keel so that is likely worth every penny. During the CLT-upgrade you can do the restore killing 2 birds with one stone.

Rotor-Head has made a FANTASTIC time-lapse video (posted here on the forum) of him doing this very upgrade on a machine of the same vintage as yours.

Have you called Doug at AirCommand yet?

Restoring an older gyro is more work then building a kit. I know because I have had to do this.

Do you have the old assembly manual for this gyro? If not AirCommand will sell you one. If they don't have any left email me and we can make arrangements to get you a copy of mine (I think I can find it...).

Make sure you crimp the rudder cables with the proper tool. Personally, I would have the crimps inspected by an experienced builder before flying (along with the rest of the craft).

You can ship the rotorhead back to AirCommand for rebuilding. I did so with mine and I was very happy with the results.

Rebuilding the engine could be expensive so shop around. If you buy a new one you might be able to sell your old engine for parts here or on ebay to recoupe alittle cost.

I have a few spare parts around so if you have a want list send me a copy and I will let you know what I have.

Here are picts of mine when I got it and now (single place). I did not do a full rebuild on the single place because it was well stored. My 2-place however was another story.

If you (or anyone) has some spare brake pads for this gyro please let me know. I need some or a source for some. AC no longer stocks them.

 

[spaceman spiff]

Thanks guys. Sounds like a big job ahead of me. Good news is the gyro was given to me. As soon as i have my trailer set up for it ( i have an old 4x8 which will have to be modified.) i can haul it home and start tearing it down. still don't have the manuals, my friend has a box of info stashed somewhere, but hasn't been able to find it.

Got an email from Doug @ Aircomand this morning, got some basic info on the stab and centerline upgrades. definatly gettng the stab and longer boom, but
Man that centerline upgrade is butt ugly! looks like something out of the Dr. Seus books!

 

[scottessex]

Contact me by PM before you pay anyone else to recondition your engine.

 

[PW_Plack]

Space,

Ugly is as ugly does. Ever see how ugly a black, smoking crater is? I'll see if I can find a link to the story of the Air Commands in England...

 

[pwendell]

T
Man that centerline upgrade is butt ugly!

Ugly is as ugly does.

Forest Gump

Seriousely, the CLT upgrade will greatly improve the gyro's handling charecteristics and make it much safer and easier for a new gyro pilot to learn on. It's not nearly as ugly as a set of bent blades or a big medical bill.

 

[spaceman spiff]

Greatly improved handling is something i would be willing buy that for.

Did a littel research a few days ago on gyro crashes. 19 serious crashes between 1996 and 2001 about half of them were blamed on instability. All of those were on gyros that had no stab. FAA was pushing for manditory stabs so it apears to me neither the FAA nor the data is pointing to having a lower CG as certain death, but the stab is the important thing, so i was inclinded to get that and leave most of the rest alone.

i was looking at the frame and wondering about a few other mods related to CG i could do. Thinking about getting rid of the under-seat extra fuel tanks. Maybe turning the engine around so the bulk of the engine is higher (cylinders hang down presently), possibly raise the seat a few inches... maybe switch to a smaller diameter 4 blade so i can place the motor a few inches lower.... any opinions of how any of those mods would play out for handling? if i can get reasonably good handling and still have reasonably low CG that seems like the thing to do..

Are the ones with high seats more vulnerable to tipping over on landings?

Thanks for the opinions guys

verrry nice avitar ben!

 

[MikeBoyette]

Spaceman,
If you fly that without the CLT you are risking your life. A gyro is not supposed to be pretty. If you are concerned about looks over fuction then I suggest you sell your aircraft. I for one do not want to have to deal with someone else giving gyros a bad name. I have personaly witnessed, and was first on seen of a fatality in the exact aircraft you have. In closing I do not want to come off like a know it all AS*Hole, but this is you life you are dealing with. The best advice is go to CLT. These are aircraft that should be breaking ground at a slow speed and landing at near zero ground speed so tip over should not be an issue.

 

[Friendly]

Welcome to the forum Spaceman, it sounds as though you are doing the necessary research to upgrade your machine to a reliable aircraft. I encourage your to join PRA and your local chapter. Make some flyins and get training from a qualified trainer. By the way, great price on the gyro. May I ask why your friend lost interest in the gyro?

 

[spaceman spiff]

I asked him the same thing twice. All he said was He had gotten laid off from a good job a number of years ago and couldn't afford it anymore. Currently has a repair job in the same company i work for. Repair doesn't pay well (i know this first hand). Most likely there is more to it though, maybe he just tried it, it was fun experience but decided not to continue. Iv'e done that i time or two. Maybe he doesn't want to admit he is a wuss? He has cautioned me about it being extreemly dangerous (and no doubt all you guys agree), so he is not misrepresenting it as just pure safe fun.

We had a hot air balloon accident here a few days ago, two died. One of my RC buddies was hit by a model airplane and died a horrible death a couple years ago. Truth is nothing that flys is safe..

Anyway, i have plenty of time to sort it all out, make informed decisions. I see a lot of low slung gyros on these pages, so obviously not everyone agrees on the importance of the CG issue. Will consider it very carefully though, just looking at options and gathering opinions and data at this point. I see no need to go rushing thru and flying what i have, but i am cautious about just hauling off with the credit card and buying everything anyone says i should. Sorting it all out is part of the adventure of it all.

 

[GyroRon]

Okay call me a asshole.... cause I don't like to beat around the bush, or sugarcoat things.

You are looking for a excuse not to do the most important upgrade you could do to this machine. That is simply RETARDED.

Understand that the stab DAMPENS the airframe in pitch. It does NOT counter the force of the engines thrust trying to push the gyro over into a power push over in a machine where the thrustline is several inches above the vertical CG. The stab makes it harder to get into the conditions that can cause a power push over, but it DOES NOT Prevent or Stop it from happening.

Power Push over can not happen when the thrust of the engine is pushing directly on or slightly below the vertical CG.

Do you not understand that Power push over is one of the most fatal traits gyroplanes can have? Once a power push over starts, you can not stop it and you are Certainly going to die. Even at a low altitude.

Why have a gyro that a power pushover is possible in? Some people do have it because either they can't afford the time or money to fix their gyro, or they feel they will never get into a mode of flight that a power pushover is possible. This is called rolling the dice, and it is your life that that roll decides, everytime a HTL gyro goes up. With CLT the odds of a bunt over is zero. How can that be ugly?

Look I am not trying to be a asshole and I hope you take waht I am saying with a grain of salt. You got alot of work ahead of you and you might as well put this gyro back together in the most up to date and safe way as possible. It could save your life.

 

[cgmg]

Joe,

Listen to everyone, and get the CLT kit. I have it, and will not fly an Air Command without it. I bet Charlie will heavily lean on you to get it, if you take lessons from him. He encouraged it for us, and it is worth every penny we spent for it. The machine is more forgiving to you as a novice pilot, and removes the constant danger of not reacting to a pitch excursion in time. In over 100 hours of flying our machine, I've yet to encounter a situation where I have had to reduce throttle immediately, or correct for, a pitch excursion. But understand that I don't fly flat-out, and reduce my airspeed if it gets turbulent. Flying our CLT is much more relaxed than when trying to fly Charlie's machine, which is not CLT.

Also, if you need it, I still have the original assembly manual, and the CLT conversion manual. I would be happy to run off a copy, and send it to you, at no cost to you. Just let me know by private email, and it's yours.

 

[spaceman spiff]

There's no reason for me to call a guy who is looking out for my best interest an asshole. You all have and will continue to have my respect and gratitude, whether i agree with you or not. At this point neither, only cautiously skeptical for the reasons listed below:

I am a big believer in statistics.

The FAA report catagorized the 19 serious crashes reported between 1996 and 2001. Thats ~3 per year(all causes combined). Seems like a low number. How many gyro guys are there? I can't seem to get a number, but i keep hearing there are quite a lot. So when anyone tries to convince me that flying any common gyro that has this or that is certain death, from a statistics point of view, i will be justifiably skeptical of that claim.

The FAA catagorized those crashes and determined that half of them were due to instability. The FAA found that in ALL of the cases of the crashes due to instability, the aircraft HAD NO STAB. So is it safe to say that statistically there is a corelation between a stab and serious instability? Yes, obviously.

The not so obvious thing to consider is that of the many non-centered gyros that had a stab, NONE of them had a serious crash atributed to instability for any of those 6 years.

According to the FAA report, and the statistics, a good stab is enough to fix the problem. So i will take any claim that i will certainly die for not doing this or that with a grain of salt.

I will however be very interested in handling. if you wish to convince me that i will enjoy the experience more for getting this expensive and ugly upgrade. i will consider it, but I see no basis for drama, and i refuse to be motivated by fear.

What i plan on doing is weighing all the components of my bird, verifying for myself where the CG is in relation to the thrust line with me on board (tall, with skinny leggs, makes a difference no doubt) and see how big this moment really is, and decide from there.

 

[PW_Plack]

Space,

If your friend stopped flying because he scared himself, it may not be because he was a "wuss." Lots of "brave" people won't fly the old low-rider Air Commands.

Don't confuse the terms "stabilizer" and "instability" in these reports. Adding a stabilizer to an older Air Command machine doesn't make it stable. The full modification kit will. The H-stab only makes an unstable pitch oscillation reach a critical point more slowly, allowing most people to survive it.

 

[Rotor-Head]

Sounds like you are where I started.... I had an ALL ORIGINAL 1985 447. Here's my AC and its evolution to a modern machine: http://www.rotor-head.com/pictures/mygyro/mygyro.html