How feasible is the gyrobee for me?

[Viewtiful Josh]

I am trying to cure my lust for flight, gyrocopters seem to be the best solution.

Thing of it is, I live In the mountains. Home is at 5800' and family cabin is at 9000'. Can a gyrobee with a Rotax 503 handle that? I would go with a PPG or a trike but high winds are a problem.

Just building it from plans. But have a machine shop that likes me a lot

 

[Resasi]

High winds, gyros handle well, provided you have had good Instruction.

In my opinion the 503 might not handle the density alt that well, however I am not that well versed at alt with the Bee.

I weigh 200lbs and at sea level both Bensen and Hornet with the 503 tended to struggle a bit at warmer temps, with a 23' rotor. The Bensen did much better with the 582, which is very slightly heavier due to water and radiator but about another 10 HP.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Viewtiful Josh]

In my opinion the 503 might not handle the density alt that well, h

What if I used a HKS-700E? at 120 # its 10 pounds heavier than a Rotax 503 with gear box. https://www.bushwhackerair.com/hksspecs.html

If I used the HKS or the 582 could I still make it an Ultralight? The HKS is way too expensive, but I might find something cheep

 

[GyroDoug]

Josh,

A big determining factor is how much you weigh.

You should go to the websites "utahrotorcraft.org" & "pra2.org" and get to know more about a group of guys that can become your greatest asset as you attempt to chase your dream of flight. Fling at the higher density altitudes we deal with her in UT. are a unique challenge but we have lots of people doing exactly what you want to do, so come and join us and learn more about exactly what it takes to fly a Gyro here in UT.

Doug Barker
URA Pres.

 

[Jazzenjohn]

Josh, I have a small single seat gyro that is ultralight with an HKS but it is extremely difficult to do and I'm not sure about how well it would handle those density altitudes. The HKS company has stopped production of the engine too. I'd look at the the Rotax 582 or possibly the MZ 202 if you want to stay with an ultralight gyro. A 4 stroke alternative is likely to be an HKS 700T if you find one, a 912, or the D-motor. All would be either double to triple the price of the 2 strokes and about 40 pounds heavier. Send an PM to Rocky here on the forum. He has a Bee he built for high DA's with the MZ 202, a 65" prop, and 24 or 25 foot rotors.

 

[Resasi]

Yes, good point John, the 532 is a little old and the 582 was the successor.

The Bensen can only take a 52' prop and we have a 4 blade Arplast with 23' Rotordynes. With the Hornet's dropped keel I have a 3 Blade 62' Warp drive and 23' DW's.

At the higher density alts you will need longer rotor blades.

 

[Jazzenjohn]

What engine does the Bensen with the 4 blade prop have Leigh? How well does it fly?

 

[PW_Plack]

What if I used a HKS-700E? at 120 # its 10 pounds heavier than a Rotax 503 with gear box...

Josh, I flew a few hours in a 503-powered Sport Copter, including a Spanish Fork-Provo-Nephi cross-country route, a couple summers ago. That machine weighed about 40 pounds more than a 503-equipped GyroBee would, and I was about 190 lb. at the time. The machine would barely climb, about 200 feet per minute off the runway and less at altitude. A GyroBee, if kept light, could be expected to perform a little better. For flying in Utah, I'd suggest a little more engine.

The HKS 700e (non-turbo) and MZ202 have been reported by some users to be only a slight improvement in performance over the Rotax 503. The HKS aircraft engines have been discontinued by the manufacturer as of early this month, according to one distributor. (See this notice.)

For reliable operation, good power-to-weight ratio and the comfort of established support, the Rotax 582 is probably the best engine for the mission right now if you live at elevations and conditions common in Utah. There are promising alternatives being developed, and the D-motor and other options might be on your list if you're willing to accept the risks of being an early adopter. Rotax has advanced, direct-injected two-stroke technology being used now in its snowmobiles which is achieving fuel economy close to four-strokes, but it may be years before those engines (E-TEC 600/800) becomes available in an aviation package.

 

[Resasi]

John, when I began on the Bensen it had a single carb single ignition 503 a 3 blade Ivo Prop and 22' RotorHawk rotors. It was fine for training and hops but when I began circuits it struggled to get above 500'. RAF Little Rissington is 730' MSL and temps vary between -4 and around 28C.

The engine was swapped for a 532 and the prop for a 4 blade Arplast. Thrust went up from around 260 to 290 and she performed much better. We then went to a 22' Rotordyne/Layzelle rotor, then got permission from the LAA to use a 23' rotor.

She now performs well, better in the cooler temps of course. She is more responsive than the Hornet and I really enjoy flying her.

 

[Doug Riley]

Comparisons with Bensens are apples and oranges. The Bensen has too short a mast to fit the correct prop for a Rotax or other redrive engine. The Gyrobee has a vertical, six-foot mast allowing the use of props over 60" in diameter. A longer prop is significantly more efficient than a short one, other things being equal.

A 503 still isn't going to cut it, though. The recommendations concerning the Rotax 582 or equivalent are on target. Use a "C" or "E" gearbox, not a "B" model.

The rotor diameter should be 24 or even 25 feet (subject always to cautious flight testing for adequate rotor RPM).

The pilot's body weight is a critical factor when designing for these altitudes. The under-200-lb. crowd has an easier time of it.

 

[Rick Martin]

Josh,

If you do decide to build a Bee, I have some new Bee parts for sale in the "Classified" and "For Sale" sections.

 

[phantom]

a gyro with a 503 or 447 needs a 68 inch or longer prop to fly well, my dominator has a 503 with a 72 inch 2 blade warpdrive and with almost 400 pounds of thrust I am very happy with the performance, my gyro could be made a lot lighter by loosing the electric starter ,hydraulic prerotator, two place head, pod and windshield and several things that are not needed but I wanted them.

Norm

 

[Viewtiful Josh]

This is going to be a five year project as I am messing around with a bunch of other things I am involved in. I think this will be the easiest on my budget. I just wanted to make sure that it could be done.

If I understand right. I will need to use a Rotax 582 that is just about 10 pounds heavier than the 503. And rotors that are a bit bigger than what you'd use at sea level, Therefore heavier. Could this still make it as an Ultralight?
I weight 175 and at 5' 10" I think I might pack on 10 more pounds of muscle if I can.

Already looking at a guy down in Arizona who teaches gyro pilots. If you know of any one else closer I would love to hear it.

I'll take a look at that Utah club Doug. It seems like you guys are all up in northern Utah, I would have thought that people would want to be flying over Zion and Bryce canyon

 

[GyroDoug]

Josh,

Our chapter has members from a dozen different States and Members from the East Coast and the West Coast. Traveling from Iron County to Spanish Fork, UT is a bit of a drive but very doable. And we have a CFI based out of Spanish Fork at Airgyro which I am sure will be the closest and best alternative for you to get training.

I don't believe it is possible to make ultralight weight using a Rotax 582 for an engine on a Gyro Bee. It is possible to build a Butterfly Ultralight with an MZ 202 60 HP engine, that might work for you. We have a chapter member that just built one and he is about your weight but he is flying from a lower altitude than you are talking about. You really need to come join us and see first hand the kind of machines that fly at our altitudes.

Doug Barker

 

[GyroRon]

You will NOT be able to build a gyro capable of the altitude you want to fly at, that will meet the part 103 ultralight weight requirements. period. end of story.

Now it really isn't a big deal. You will need training to learn to fly it, and by the time you get enough training to be safe, you will have the nessasary training needed to apply for and pass your sport pilot license. Then you register the gyro as a experimental aircraft and your able to do whatever you want.

Sure this would cost you more money.... money on tests and books... and money on aircraft inspection, and possibly state / local property taxes... But end result is your legal and your flying a nice fun gyroplane.

Or.... built the machine however needed to handle the altitude, and get lessons, and go fly it as is.... Sure it will probably end up 50-75 pounds over the legal limit, but elsewise it is within the letter of the law. Ive been flying ultralights, gyros and airplanes for 19 years now... I have YET to come across anyone I personally know who was " busted " by the FAA for having a ultralight that was a little over weight.

 

[GyroRon]

Oh and btw, yes, build it as light as possible, with a 582 and larger blades and it should fly fine at that altitude. If you could find a set of 25 foot skywheels and go without a pre rotator.... build the gyro with minimal instrumentation and as light as possible you could get it in at around 300 lbs without exotic materials or construction methods, and with your weight and the 582 engine it would fly nicely

 

[Viewtiful Josh]

Well I kinda like following the law, but that does seem enticing.

One off topic question. If I do the 20 hours required for the sports license, would that put me halfway to getting my private license? Or would I just have to start over?

The costs are going up, but hey I don't have a family yet so I figured that this is the time to get all these things done.

 

[PW_Plack]

...If I do the 20 hours required for the sports license, would that put me halfway to getting my private license? Or would I just have to start over?

Josh, be aware that the 20-hour requirement is the FAA's minimum to take the practical test. It is usually not enough to actually pass the test. Historically, beginning students with no prior flying experience average about 60 hours before taking the test. Sport pilot will save you some of those hours.

Obviously, if you have your own single-place machine, you can use it to fly the solo requirements.

Some people planning to fly ultralights train to the point at which they're signed off by their instructor to solo. That's typically in the 8 - 17 hours range.

Hook up with Chapter 2, even if you can't often make the meetings in person, and you'll see the whole range of both gyros and the paths taken by area pilots to build and fly them. One of our members, Kevin Eaton, will be training to fly his new Butterfly Ultralight with an MZ202 engine. I suspect he weighs a little less than you do, but there would be great value in keeping in touch with him about his experience. He'll also be moving to the St. George area in a few months, so you guys would be within a reasonable drive of each other.