Freedom of Information Act

Steve McGowan

Gold Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Messages
2,517
Location
Macon Ga.
I ask everyone that reads this posting to send to the

FAA Flight Standards
Attn. Mr George McNeill
5601 Mariner St, suite 310
Tampa, Fla.
33609-3416



In regards to the accident on March 31, 2006 that took the lives of Terry Eiland and Bill Ferrall.

Request any and all information of this accident as per the

"Freedom of Information Act"



This must be a hand written letter and is the only way we'll ever get anything done to find out what happened...

please,,,,,,, lets swamp this office with letters...

steve mcgowan
 
Thankyou Randy

Thankyou Randy

I stand corrected,, I don't know why I didn't say Finnegan...

and No I do not have any scoup.. Groen Bros and the FAA is holding any info due to a GAG order..

It makes makes me GAG to think about it.

steve
 
I stand corrected,, I don't know why I didn't say Finnegan...

and No I do not have any scoup.. Groen Bros and the FAA is holding any info due to a GAG order..

It makes makes me GAG to think about it.

steve

Me to Steve, that stinks. Who put the gag order in place?

Aussie Paul. :)
 
Steve, I not sure about a GAG order. Never heard of it in my 20 years with FAA. NTSB is responsible for probably cause determination and it takes about a year for them to make an accident report final (plus or minus a month). The FAA looks at the accident from the regulatory aspect unless they are given the authority from the NTSB to do the investigation on their own. In this case NTSB was part of the investigation. I think patience is the best course of action until the final report is released. My humble jarhead oppinion.

Marty
 
Gag order

Gag order

Dan Banks of Groen Bros informed me some months ago after he was allowed to view the wreckage of the crashed gyro in a JUNK YARD.. He also just informed Stan Foster,, "We're WORKIN ON IT"

That he could not say anything other than he had been allowed to see the wrechage of the gyro.
FAA/ Tom Groce (I ASSUME) made him sign a GAG ORDER .

The wreckage was in a junk yard and David Eiland had to pay to get the wreckage.. I remember the cost of $ 1400.00 was mentioned for two months at the yard. It was thrown in among trash and junk, not separated in any way. And I have a few/lot of choice words on that.

The rotor head/ torque bar had been taken apart and sent for testing or something.

Many Many items had been left at the crash area.. Terry's cell phone, tools and even more items that I won't mention.

I feel we in the PRA and even those that are not members need to find out what happened.

Enough people read this forum, we all owe it to Terry and Bill to find out.

From what Stan Foster stated,,,, Groen Bros needs to be "WORKIN ON IT" .

DAMMITT GIT ER DONE

Steve
 
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Steve: Dan Banks told me the exact same thing also. I pressed him further...and all he did say extra was that he would be in violation of the law if he commented in detail. He did assure me that what he knew would not have him doubt the mechanical integrity of the SH. I have dealt with people all my life...and my gut feeling about people has seldom been wrong. It tells me Dan is a straight shooter and just not working for SH.



Stan
 
Thank you for your knowledge on this Marty, If anyone knew the procedures " You Do".
The NTSB informed me that it was up to Tom Groce to make the deceision on this matter. That was within two weeks of the crash..
It's DAMNED SHAME the way this is being handled.

I don't doubt what Dan has said either,, but we're not messin with a warranty on a washin machine..

You and I fly these birds, bet you/I want to get the 5/16 rod or whatever else installed..

I bet if I put Dan in my bird,, He'd want it too.
The DARPA Project is very important, But we ,that fly Sparrow Hawks, want and need to know whats being done.


Yall excuse me for being a lil vile/pissed about this...


I know my words mean nothin..... to some folks, but I'm not forgettin Bill and Terry
 
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P.s.

P.s.

Think about it........

I have the LAST WORD on my machine.....

Less "YOUR IN IT WITH ME"

do Ya hear me now ?:boink:
 
I fail to understand...

I fail to understand...

This is an emotional situation but LOGIC would dictate, hey there are a bunch of these things flying... might be a good idea to give us a heads up in some form or fashion.... why the cloak and dagger b.s. gag order nonsense. I know money and greed make the world go round but this stuff floors me.

I bet that if you had a bunch of soccer moms and little johnny riding in the back of the SPH, they by golly I bet you we would know, or at the very least HAVE A PRELIM REPORT, SOMETHING TO CHECK AND GO ON. I guess we are all very low on the food chain and we can only prevent what we know about.

Jonathan
 
Steve, there are times when a time-out from public discussion is needed to avoid ruining an investigation. We could actually hurt chances of getting the full story if we tried to force release of unsubstantiated info.

Police organizations often won't comment on ongoing investigations for this reason. If I were working at the Tampa FSDO, and a landslide of mail came in from gyroplane enthusiasts wanting me to compromise my work, I know two things for sure...

(1) I would ignore them
(2) I would resent them

I can understand your frustration, especially yours, because you fly a SH. But I wouldn't go jump on NTSB desks until they've gone through their normal process. Careful usually takes more time than sloppy.
 
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The term "gag order" doesn't really fit here. What there is, is a normal process that takes place confidentially, until the NTSB publishes a factual report, and then holds a hearing of the full Board. Only the Board can make a determination of probable cause. (Although they will generally be steered to a conclusion by the Board's professional staff and investigators -- the Board consists of political appointees and if they know anything about safety it's an unexpected bonus).

Once the Board has made its determination, you will be able to get the whole investigation docket, minus certain elements that are withheld under privacy laws, with a FOIA request. Actually, they normally have you go to a third party that will sell you the docket on CD these days. (It is normal to be charged for FOIA research and reproduction).

The NTSB and FAA do not investigate general aviation accidents as thoroughly as air carrier accidents, and among GA accidents, they give the least investigation to experimentals.

Finally, to investigate anything, you need something to investigate. One reason that they didn't take a lot of care with the wreckage of Terry's gyro, I think, is that there was, in all frankness, so little of it left. The machine hit hard and then burned.

NTSB does have some evidence. They have whatever could be teased out of the wreckage. And they have a credible eyewitness statement. This is better than what they sometimes get.

The remainder of the wreckage has been carefully inspected.

This is a very disturbing accident. The pilot in command was an instructor known for his integrity and ability. There was another competent, if not very experienced, pilot on board, so incapacitation seems unlikely (for most causes of incapacitation, an autopsy would be dispositive, anyway).

The machine was one that was designed from the outset with safety as its primary market differentiator. It was one of very few experimental gyros to be subjected to analysis and testing by degreed aeronautical engineers and qualified experimental test pilots and flight test engineers.

So it's very puzzling, and going a long time without hearing diddly is frustrating as hell.

I don't think anything we can do will make the investigation go any faster, and I'm quite certain that nothing we do will get the Board to release significant information before it is ready to do so. When they complete work on any part of the wreckage they have retained, they are supposed to turn it over to the owner, insurer, or owner's survivors. I suspect that the wrecking yard was some local sheriff's call, he just had it hauled to where he sends junk cars.

Hang in there, Steve. Let's give these folks the benefit of the doubt until they complete their task. I didn't know Terry as well as you, but I think that's what he would have done.

cheers

-=K=-
 
FAA/ Tom Groce (I ASSUME) made [Dan Banks] sign a GAG ORDER.

Steve and guys,

NTSB brings in people from outside as "parties" to the investigation. That's because they know that in-house, they don't know everything. IF they bring you in as a party, they make you sign a non disclosure agreement.

This is NOT TRIVIAL. They are STONE SERIOUS about keeping these investigations confidential. In the early stages of an investigation they throw out a lot of theories and look at a lot of ideas that wind up being ruled out. Most air crashes have a lot of people looking for inside information, ranging from bereaved family members and unhappy friends, to ambulance-chasing lawyers and snooping reporters. Most of those people either wouldn't understand some details from the investigation yanked out of context, or worse, would spin them to the media for personal reasons. The media often goes off half-cocked with half a story. (I know. I've been in it. Everybody from little trade publications to media giants like CBS or CNN screws up sometimes).

NTSB is serious about secrecy. People have been tagged "felon" for life and even gone to prison for breaking that secrecy. It's not fair to Dan to press him for information.

Once the probable cause is released, those who assisted will be released from their promise of confidentiality. There's no conspiracy going on here, just a good procedure to keep the amount of half-assed crap in the press to a bare minimum.

cheers

-=K=-
 
Ok

Ok

I guess I'm so close to this that I don't see anything being done.. I know as well as anyone that knew Terry how proficient he was.

I cannot and will not apoligise for wanting answers, I just think it was done piss poor at the site. Lotts of things could have been answered but wasn't.

So Yall understand if I stay in the frame of mind I have about this until we have some answers.

I know if we could we'd change what happened..
 
I guess I'm so close to this that I don't see anything being done.. I know as well as anyone that knew Terry how proficient he was.

I cannot and will not apoligise for wanting answers, I just think it was done piss poor at the site. Lotts of things could have been answered but wasn't.

So Yall understand if I stay in the frame of mind I have about this until we have some answers.

I know if we could we'd change what happened..

I totally understand Steve, having had my father die in a gyroplane, then having the Coroner hand down an open finding.

There was only 3 scenarios, pilot error, machine failure or pilot incapacitation. After conducting my own research on stroke sufferers, I came to a conclusion that I was happy with. That Dad had a stroke whilst airborne.

An open finding did not sit well with me, as after 3 months I wanted to continue. I only had 30 hour in command of gyros at that time.

Aussie Paul. :)
 
Steve, go to your Congressman/womans office and speak with their Rep. Take in a letter with your concerns to give to the Congressman. (They usually have an office in town or a nearby town) Request he/she make an inquiry. Because this is an election year, I bet you'll get a responce. I did this after getting the run around for a year. I had a formal answer in three days. It works. Good luck and Happy landings
 
You can make this FOIA request by using this link:
https://www.faa.gov/foia/email_foia/index.cfm?region=aso

Information you will need:

For Requested Records:
Please be as descriptive as possible:


Pilot: Marvin T. Eiland
Place: Ona, FL
Date: March 31, 2006
Registration Number: N41964

Request factual or probable cause of this fatal gyroplane accident.

I used $0 for Maximum amount of fees you are willing to pay: I will see what happens.
 
In respect to Dan banks I would like to offer a comment.
Yes he is a straight shooter and yes he is not allowed to give out any info reguarding the investigation of Terry,s crash.
If you ever get the chance to meet him you will know that right away he is dead level and very knowledgable.
He also makes it very clear that there is no modification required on the Sparrow Hawk.
Groen did send a remade checklist by email after the accident, but there wasn't anything that wasn't already in the manual from what I could see.
I dont have a clue what went wrong that day, but apparently it was not a design failure.
Sometimes something very simple will turn up but will turn in to a 100 page report a year later.
Sounds like our government is as bad as yours!:whip:
 
I agree

I agree

That our government takes it's time with reporting,
yes I have met Dan Banks.

we will all be waiting for the results.

steve
 
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