Transition from 2 seat trainer to single seat gyro

[DavePA11]

This is reply to Fara’s post on the other thread with the accident to keep them separate.

I went from 2 seater gyro to single seat Sportcopter Vortex M912, and agree with Fara that more than 6 hours of training is needed. I also had a lot of off airport flying hours so that helped tremendously. The single seat gyro behaves much differently and is very nimble. I had two great gyro instructors, and one had experience flying the Sportcopter who was Chris Lord. We specifically trained for the transition and he described how the SC would behave differently as we trained together in the MTO he owned. Last flight I had with Chris he even got out of his MTO and told me to do 3 takeoff and landings solo so I can get familiar with how the SC would behave. That I believe was most important part of my training since it helped a lot for the first solo in the SC. Even with this training, I was still surprised at how responsive the M912 was on takeoff and how much I had to lower the noise on takeoff in comparison to the two seater. It is a very safe gyro to fly.

I have seen a student who soloed a trike for the second time actually cut power completely on takeoff in a panic, and fly right into the woods. Seen many 2 stroke engine outs too.

I have also seen several ultralight aircraft accidents with students Crow hopping, and highly do not recommend it. Better off getting away from the ground to get familiar with the aircraft handling rather than right on top of it. IMO. I even taxied a Phantom too fast down the runway which I never taxied or flew before, and it became airborne with a unexpected head wind and almost nose dove it into the ground trying to get it back on the runway. Decided full power to save the landing and flew around for 20 minutes to get use to how it handled then landed it without any issues. wont do that again... Luckily it flew just like a Cub which I had hundreds of hours in. Probably dumbest thing I have ever done. Glad I didn’t wreck it since the owner of the phantom was going to take my Cub as collateral...

New pilots for single seat gyros should try to find instructors with experience in flying the single seat gyro if possible to help in the transition...

 

[Eric S]

New pilots for single seat gyros should try to find instructors with experience in flying the single seat gyro if possible to help in the transition...

I agree! It seems many have never flown a single place machine and it's too bad since that's really where gyros shine. I wear my SC Vortex and can whip it around the sky. Flying my 2-place gyro feels more like flying fixed wing.

I disagree about crow hopping. I flew trikes before gyros and I still fly fixed wing. They are not very maneuverable right at take off and touch down speeds, but gyros have full control.

I made the same transition from 2-place trainers - Magni and MTO, then scared the crap out of myself flying the pattern in my Vortex on the first flight. I was behind it the entire flight. The Vortex has a much lighter stick and way more maneuverability. I talked to 2 seasoned gyro pilots who had flown single and 2-place and received 2 great pieces of advice.

First, use a light grip on the stick and barely move it in flight. He said to make an "OK" sign with my thumb and index finger around the stick, then choke up on the stick by resting my wrist on my leg. That really helped me and I still tend to fly that way.

Second, follow the Bensen training manual ALL THE WAY THROUGH. It takes great patience and must include lots of practice at each stage - taxiing, crow hopping, S-turns higher and faster until doing them at full power - all of this done safely right over the runway (preferably a big grass strip) BEFORE flying the pattern. I followed it all the way though and I can make our Vortex dance. My Dad stopped at the S-turn stage before full power S-turns and he's not comfortable cranking and banking.

Eric

 

[Resasi]

When transitioning from a two seat gyro to a single seat gyro have this though in your mind. Going from a bicycle to a mono cycle.

A two seat gyro possesses very much more longitudinal stability that a single seat gyro.

A single seat gyro has very much more sensitive controls, and control inputs need to more delicate in order not to over control and then go into pilot induced oscillation, a situation that can rapidly lead to loss of control...and death.

Better off getting away from the ground to get familiar with the aircraft handling rather than right on top of it.

I beg to disagree. If you fell off a monocycle, would you prefer to do it close to the ground with not so far to fall, or from a great height?

The reason one does wheel balancing is so that you can demonstrate when you have mastered the ability to balance on the main wheels consistently without banging back and forth from nosewheel to tailwheel, this demonstrating to the watching Instructor...(or should you have decided to do this yourself...not advised) that you are no longer over-controlling and are no longer in danger of PIOing when airborne.

Once you can balance comfortably, then start hops. These should be low...because this is a sight picture you want to be intimately familiar with, because it is the one where you will be needing good judgement for your landings. Short hops then as you get more confident longer and a little higher. Then long hops with gentle S turns. Higher hops then high hops with an increasing reduction of throttle until you can do a high hop followed by a complete power off which is equivalent to your engine out practice.

Be aware that some single seat gyros can have a pronounced nose down attitude in order to maintain a safe approach speed. This will vary with machine, your weight, the rotors being used and the density alt/temp. On the Bensen operating from 700’ airfield, 22C, with 22’ Rotor Hawkes, me at 93Kg, to maintain 55Kts initial approach speed I had a descent angle of about 45 degrees and a pronounced nose down attitude.

Get familiar with this as the power on approaches can be quite shallow, and when that engine fails, I have had two, you quite rapidly will need to know that approach attitude/sight picture, to be able to judge what target/landing point you can make safely. It is also a good idea to see how low you can do this safely as both my engine failures were very low and if you are not quick enough to get your nose down and maintain rotor rpm that you can then utilise for your landing you could be in a world of hurt, or damage to your machine.

 

[Vance]

Gyroplanes don’t all fly the same.

Some gyroplanes are not well suited to crow hops.

Please wait for calm wind conditions to learn how to transition to any gyroplane.

Gyroplanes handle wind well, it is my observation pilots unfamiliar with the gyroplane they are flying do not.

Those that speak romantically about self-training seem to have forgotten all the fatalities.

According to Ken Brock is was not unusual to ruin several sets of blades learning to fly a gyroplane.

 

[SportCopter]

Here at Sport Copter we believe that if you can't do it low, you're not yet a well-rounded gyro pilot. (Imagine a helicopter pilot who could not hover.) It's comparatively easy to fly a gyro at 500+' AGL; we often let new passengers do so during their first flight. However, real mastery is required at 0-2' above the runway, and the more practice one gets there the better.

Over many years we've found crow hopping to be an important training tool to master take-off airspeeds, rotor rpm, power/control coupling, flying behind the power curve, ground effect and flaring, the avoidance of ballooning, regularly smooth landings with "walking/jogging speed" touchdowns, and the touch-and-go.

Crow hopping hones the subconscious with the practice of small control movements, which is the path to mastery. 30 minutes of crow hopping can pack in dozens of touchdowns that would otherwise take hours of pattern work landings. Training tempo is high, and a student very quickly learns the proper "feel".

Before crow hopping one should have first mastered balancing on the mains, and tapping the nosewheel as needed. Here's an example of a new student demonstrating good control:

Sportcopter transition training balance on the mains rake 27

Our gyros are designed for this by not linking the NW to the pedals, thus the absence of Sport Copter nosewheel-related incidents while taxiing, take-off, and landing. (In other gyros, we count 10 such global incidents, with another 32 probables/possibles.) Pedal-linking the gyro NW invites drama, especially for the new pilot with <100 hours. (Also, FW pilots are accustomed to using the rudder during take-offs and landings, and many of them find it tricky to transition into NW-linked gyros.)

Regarding 2-place vs. single seat gyros, a student well-trained in our dual gyro with our techniques should be able to safely transition into their single seat machine and not over-control it. Our Vortex 582 and M912 gyros are very responsive, but not twitchy.

 

[WaspAir]

I am a bit confused about what people are recommending here, and would appreciate some clarity.

One says follow the entire Bensen manual religiously. One says crow-hopping is essential for developing feel. On parallel threads, others are suggesting that altitude = danger while learning.

From the title of this thread, I assumed we were talking about a model transition for somebody who has already received competent dual flight instruction and can safely operate at least the training two-seater in the airport environment, meaning all the taxi, rotor management, airspeed control, power application and withdrawal, traffic avoidance, climbs, descents, turns, emergency procedures, pattern judgment, take-off, and landing tasks, all performed in the two-seater, and now wishes to master a more responsive single seater. If that is the case, are the posters here suggesting that the entire curriculum must be repeated, this time in a single seat ship, using the Bensen method or a ground-based radio coach? If that is not what is being proposed/discussed, just how much of the two-seat training do you think needs repeating?

I imagine each poster has a clear picture of something in mind, but I can't really tell what that is or where the agreements/disagreements might be (and I wonder if the authors fully appreciate how much or little agreement there is). Please fill in a little more so that I follow this better. Thanks.

 

[Vance]

Based on real world experience and advice from people who know more than I do; in my opinion it is a mistake to do crow hops in a Dominator, an AAI modified RAF or a SparrowHawk. This opinion is backed up by Ernie, Jim Mayfield and Terry Brandt.

I have seen people get into trouble with Dominators, AAI modified RAFs and SparrowHawks because they were afraid to get away from the ground.

I don’t teach crow hops in The Predator unless people are having a problem balancing on the mains. If they are having trouble balancing on the mains the tower will give us the cross wind runway and we wait for low wind conditions and run up and down till they are comfortable and crow hops are usually a part of that exercise. The Predator is particularly manageable doing crow hops; some gyroplanes I have flown are not.

In my opinion many gyroplanes are happy doing crow hops in low wind conditions and I feel it is a great learning tool.

I am about to test a client’s one of a kind gyroplane so I can transition him into it and balancing on the mains and crow hops will be part of the plan for me and the client.

I don’t see a conflict in any of this.

Different clients learn differently and in my opinion the syllabus needs to be adjusted for the client and the aircraft they will fly.

 

[DavePA11]

“Here at Sport Copter we believe that if you can't do it low, you're not yet a well-rounded gyro pilot. (Imagine a helicopter pilot who could not hover.) It's comparatively easy to fly a gyro at 500+' AGL; we often let new passengers do so during their first flight. However, real mastery is required at 0-2' above the runway, and the more practice one gets there the better.”

I too think it’s important to have this skill, and believe when new pilots are transitioning from dual instruction to single seat gyro that they need to be proficient with taxing, balancing on mains and overall control of the gyro for takeoffs and landings. However, I think it is safer to get more experience taking off and landing individually than crow hopping until the student has a good feel for how the gyro handles.

I have counted close to a dozen accidents that I have seen with new pilots Crow hopping ultralights, trikes and gyro when transitioning from a dual aircraft to single seat aircraft under different wind conditions and being unfamiliar with how the single seat aircraft handles with usually lower power engine, different feel in controls, different sight picture, etc. Of course Gyros do handle differently than fixed wing, but I feel it’s safer to learn to do normal take off and landings first before honing skills for Crow hops.

Maybe it’s due to seeing so many accidents with new students, but even when I transitioned to flying the Sportcopter I felt much more comfortable with the controls after my first flight where I had time up in the air to really get familiar with how the aircraft performed at all different power settings and maneuvers away from the ground. After a few takeoffs and landings felt much more comfortable with maneuvers closer to the ground and could practice Crow hopping which helps you to recover and land safely if had engine out on take-off. In any case, I am not an instructor nor any type of expert flying gyros, Just my opinion based on my experiences.

I also agree with Vance that students learn differently, but also instructors instruct differently too.

Nothing worse than watching someone wreck their single seat aircraft for the first time soloing it after learning in a different dual seat aircraft. So much time building it and money wasted... I have never seen an accident with student soloing the same aircraft that they took dual instruction in when learning, but nor would they do Crow hopping for the first solo flight...

 

[Resasi]

If that is the case, are the posters here suggesting that the entire curriculum must be repeated, this time in a single seat ship, using the Bensen method or a ground-based radio coach? If that is not what is being proposed/discussed, just how much of the two-seat training do you think needs repeating?

As much as is deemed necessary by the instructor who is going to be signing off the transition from two seat to single seat.

Every Instructor and every student is a completely individual situation. There is no one size fits all.

 

[Vance]

you meam afraid because in a DOM you already sit at one meter from the ground ? is it the reason why people are more afraind in the dom then in a low profile gyro ?

In my experience many people are afraid to get away from the ground regardless of what gyroplane they are flying.

People who know more than me about flying gyroplanes felt that starting with crow hops in these machines was not the best way to learn.

I doubt if their decision was based on a single factor.

There is risk in flying gyroplanes and risk in flying something different than you are used to.

Mitigating the risk is a compromise and not doing crow hops is the compromise these men chose as I understood the words they used.

In my opinion based on my experience a Dominator is one of the easiest gyroplanes to land and most of the landing mishaps I have become aware of have been because someone landed fast and did not manage the controls well.

I am not a fan of the linked nose gear on the AAI modified RAF or the SparrowHawk and it is not hard to imagine someone getting into trouble with it.

I learned in a AAI modified RAF and was advised by flight instructors Terry Brandt and Jim Mayfield to get away from the ground quickly.

The Predator sits high and manages crow hops with a new pilot under instruction well.

I feel your focus on the importance on stance in tip overs may be misplaced.

The closest I have come to tipping over a gyroplane has been instructing in a Cavalon and an unmodified RAF. These are both low gyroplanes.

 

[WaspAir]

As much as is deemed necessary by the instructor who is going to be signing off the transition from two seat to single seat.

Every Instructor and every student is a completely individual situation. There is no one size fits all.

Of course, I never expected a formula for all cases, but I was hoping for more insight into and clarity about what people are actually proposing as the typical/general approach, and I still really don't have that yet.

My questions about what is being proposed would include things like this:

Must the whole Bensen manual be followed in a single seater, even though one has already learned to fly a 2-seat gyro competently? (That could easily be inferred from above.)

Must a transitioning pilot shy away from the pattern until the very last part of the process?

Are low altitude S-turns really thought to be safer than flying with some altitude where the margins for error are larger?

... and so on.

What process are we really talking about for a pilot who is already solo-competent in a 2 seater? (Note that this includes pilots who are fully licensed for all gyro configurations under U.S. regs, having taking all training and testing exclusively in 2-seaters, and now wish to fly a single seater, for whom no instructor involvement, endorsement, or further testing is required.)

 

[XXavier]

I'd like to add another, very important source of stress, to jm-urbani's list:

People looking...

 

[Gyro28866]

I have flown machines that DID NOT balance on the mains, and at some point the machine lifted somewhat level with the nose slightly high and you leveled out below 10' AGL accelerated to the appropriate flight speed and the additional prop thrust established a climb.
Then I have flown Bensen style machines that are best flown/taken off with the machine balanced on the mains. A Bensen balanced on the mains is in the proper flight attitude, it just has not developed enough thrust to lift off.
Then you throw in the Bensen One Off clones with High Thrustline or Low Thrustline and that machine will require a different technique.
There was great value in a person learning on a Bensen style to balance on the mains proficiently, then advance the throttle and lift off in the proper flight attitude and reduce throttle and settle back on in a balanced on the mains attitude. Once mastered, the person can easily fly the length of the runway and land and stop in an area of his choosing. Then he can increase his altitude on a long crow hop to 50' agl, and then 100' agl . By this point they should be able to transition back into an approach and then low level attitude and land balanced on the mains with ease. Then they are basically ready to go to the pattern; but with caution. The sight picture will change as they gain a few hundred feet altitude; but they should have mastered proper attitude and airspeed. Then once on final, descend to a low level and settle back into the proper flight attitude "balanced on mains" and land. It should all be without even really thinking about it by now.
The "balanced on the mains" was not soo much to teach you to be able to show off and ride balanced on the mains, as much as it was for you to be able to control the machine in a proper "flight attitude" while it still has contact with the ground. Increase thrust and liftoff and decrease thrust and slowdown and stop.

 

[Resasi]

Of course, I never expected a formula for all cases, but I was hoping for more insight into and clarity about what people are actually proposing as the typical/general approach, and I still really don't have that yet.

My questions about what is being proposed would include things like this:

Must the whole Bensen manual be followed in a single seater, even though one has already learned to fly a 2-seat gyro competently? (That could easily be inferred from above.)

Must a transitioning pilot shy away from the pattern until the very last part of the process?

Are low altitude S-turns really thought to be safer than flying with some altitude where the margins for error are larger?

... and so on.

What process are we really talking about for a pilot who is already solo-competent in a 2 seater? (Note that this includes pilots who are fully licensed for all gyro configurations under U.S. regs, having taking all training and testing exclusively in 2-seaters, and now wish to fly a single seater, for whom no instructor involvement, endorsement, or further testing is required.)

Unfortunately I am not familiar with the Bensen manual but I would doubt that this would be neccessary.

The training I followed, and would repeat if giving, is to build up in separate stages that have been outlined already, to the circuit which incorporates all the elements required to be mastered, in flying a gyro safely.

When talking about S turns I feel that one should be specific in describing them. Small shallow S turns within a runways width are safer than steeply banked hard high g turns. Yes I believe shallow S turns should be safe at a comparatively low altitude, say between 5 and 10 ft. It does however also depend upon how comfortable and competent the student has been up to that point.

I would advocate introducing shallow S turns at a low altitude because it is always possible for a wind shift to occur during a training session and for the student could be drifted away from the centre line and a shallow turn will allow them to correct back comfortably while still at a stage where they are building up their initial experience.

If, in the US there is no further instructor involvement endorsement or further training is required, then I would strongly suggest that anyone wishing to convert from 2 seat to single seat, for his/her own safety, make a point of involving at the very least the assistance advice and supervision of an experienced single seat gyro pilot, or better still an instructor who does have single seat experience.

 

[barongan]

I love this thread, good info