rtrhd
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Fatal - Rotorsport UK Cavalon N401GR, Beverly Regional Airport, Massachusetts, USA 04 DEC 2022
- Thread starter GyrOZprey
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MikeBoyette
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Honestly if it was just on your final landing you could stop forward motion before setting it down. My concern is someone is not very experienced and sets the nose wheel down accidentally and it causes them to roll.
Abid
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300 rotor RPM and stick forward on landing. I would fine that pilot's instructor. That is rotor thrust vector taking it over. I understand though poorly trained pilots would do that
Smack
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Abid,
Perhaps in the specifically-referenced instance the error was 'behind the power curve', but I'll throw out another potential 'gotcha' that has just about exactly the same result: take-off w/ engaged pre-rotator.
As a student (yes, El Tigre
) pilot, I once attempted a take-off in a Magni M-16 with the pre-rotator still engaged.I lifted off the ground, but could not climb more than a few feet and was in a nose-up attitude. There was also a bit of a left-turning tendency, IIRC.
Recognizing SOME problem, I set it back down on the runway w/o any further drama.
At the time, I did not know why the machine did that, but upon reflection, I think I did not let go of the handle (it's on the Magni cyclic).
The pre-rotator engagement soaked up a bit of Hp, so the effect was very similar to that 'behind the power curve' video in that I did not have enough power (I don't recall if it affected the RRPM, too) to climb out.
Kinetic
Active Member
"taking those couple of hours of lessons in them will cut you down to size real quick."
Maybe the respectable CFI, and a few more of these experienced CFIs, need retraining if they teach their student to fly like he flew in that first video. And considering most of these accidents that seem to fall in a couple of categories.
I would recommend to the FAA that the whole gyro program needs to be revisited as I think there are some gutless instructors in it for a quick buck.
Maybe the respectable CFI, and a few more of these experienced CFIs, need retraining if they teach their student to fly like he flew in that first video. And considering most of these accidents that seem to fall in a couple of categories.
I would recommend to the FAA that the whole gyro program needs to be revisited as I think there are some gutless instructors in it for a quick buck.
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Kinetic
Active Member
Some of these pilots instructors who can't teach are, no doubt in my mind, signing off their students way to early selling them on minimum instruction is good enough to solo. I have seen websites telling students X amount of hours and we will get you signed off. I call that BS for what it is.
EI-GYRO
21st Century Crankhandler
Why have to keep it up at all? Sure, you should, but the only reason you have to is so the designer can save two bits on a couple of springs. Asking for another friend...
MikeBoyette
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Abid I agree most of these incidents can be traced back to poor aviation decisions as Vance says. My point is given the increase in these types of blown takeoffs resulting in rollover wouldn’t it be a good idea to tweak the methods being taught? In addition I can see some room for improvements in the gyroplane itself. It has always puzzled me when a designer is so arrogant that they refuse to change their craft to make it safer for the general public (not saying you are doing this at all). Just because a method of manipulating controls either in the air or the ground is acceptable to you doesn’t mean it’s safe or good for a beginner. For once I would love to see a manufacturer say yeah you know what maybe your right our doomaflachet is difficult for someone to manipulate and it could be dangerous if your not used to it. We are going look at ways to improve it and make it more natural to operate. The idea that someone should get used to something just because it’s been designed out of convenience and ease of contruction is silly.
Gyros sold to the public honestly should be made to be as forgiving as possible because not every pilot is going to be skilled at multi tasking. It’s a gyro they are supposed to be easier to fly. It seems to me they have been made more complicated for no other reason than to separate themselves from what I feel is considered by modern gyro manufacturers as homebuilt junk.
As I told you and others Dr. Bensen discovered that the Florida homebuilt gyro crowd couldn’t be discounted. He spent lots of time and money making the most modern designed Jump takeoff two bladed gyro he could. It was impressive but got showed up by a simple homebuilt guys high powered prerotator. He suffered what a whole bunch of designers do in my opinion. They think their idea is the best there is and refuse to change their aircraft even if it is safer. My old man never did that. His Dominator evolved over the years. Anytime he or someone else came up with a better or safer way it was built and tested if it worked he put it on the next.production model built.
I know you and he don’t agree on much. He was a pain to deal with. He always tried to make his design safer. He also was one of the few if not the only manufacturer that made his entire living off of building machines and blades solely for 30yrs. Others have tried and failed.
I will leave you with this advice take or leave it. Just because it works for you don’t be afraid to change for safety or ease of operation. Don’t be stubborn or prideful at the risk of your customers. Too many gyro manufacturers have done this and it cost lives and eventually their business. If there is a safer better way to do it and you didn’t think of it or it counters your preference who cares. Don’t be afraid to change anything or everything especially for safety or ease of operation. It’s a worn out saying but I believe in the kiss method especially in gyros. They should also be designed to be as stupid proof as possible. Let’s face it we all have bouts of stupidity and it shouldn’t cost you your life or machine because it was made overly complicated just to be different.
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BEN S
Super Member
Mike, I know a manufactuer whose product accounted for a high number of accidents.
The homebuilt crowd begged for him to change his design to a safer one.
He did not for a very very long time because he believed if he did the widows of his former customers would get lawyers to say he was admitting fault.
This is not "the way"
The homebuilt crowd begged for him to change his design to a safer one.
He did not for a very very long time because he believed if he did the widows of his former customers would get lawyers to say he was admitting fault.
This is not "the way"
MikeBoyette
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I have known quite a few like that. One in particular that still claims that the original machine was safe and it was all a lack of training. The originator of blame the customer instead of correcting a known defective design. It’s a rhetoric that has worked multiple times in at least two different markets. Although in this case I don’t think it’s anything more complicated than changing would be admitting being wrong. Being wrong is not an option so just keep saying over and over that you were right. This despite being told by others more knowledgeable, experienced, and qualified that not only was it wrong. It was fatally wrong.
Another well-known manufacturer absolutely refused to change their design, despite many deadly incidents. To this manufacturer changing their design would mean defeat. That particular ego would never let that happen. The shortcomings of that design kill not only that ego but two other innocent people. It took a brave man in the land of the Buffalo Soldier to correct the problems of this design for himself that others wanted to do it too. It spawned a market for correction of the defects and a whole new gyro.
I realize in the United States, we have lawyers and a court system that will sue you for anything. I would think that there are ways to keep yourself as less of a desirable target of such frivolous lawsuits. If I were manufacturing something and found out, that particular thing would improve the safety of that thing, I would not hesitate to implement it. I would not care, if it wasn’t my idea or made me look bad in someone else’s view. I think the best way to be able to save a little face is to implement improvement as part of a latest model update. This is after all how cell phone companies and automobiles manufactures , get us to buy things we already have that are just a little bit better.
I wish every company building gyroplanes would take this view in improving not only the safety of their machines, but the ease of their machines to provide good and fun experience. You should be able honestly, go from one brand of gyro to another and another and they be a fairly easy transition. Think about it. Every other mode of transportation is like that. Why can’t we be like that?
I hate to use the motorcycle analogy again but, if they had not standardized the controls on each and every bike would any of them be as successful as they are now? Right now Gyro’s remind me of what I was told motorcycles were like in the early days. I heard it even was like this up through there 50s 60s and 70s. You would have one motorcycle that had a suicide shifter. The next one would have a foot shifter on the right side. The brake would be on the left side. I’m exaggerating, of course because I didn’t live then, but can you imagine having to learn all new controls going from a Honda to say a Kawasaki? Motorcycles are not the only thing either. I think about every other recreational transportation device that controls and the way they act are all universal to the machine and not to the manufacture. This enables you to go from brand brand and still be able to control it safely and as if it were second nature. I’m pretty sure that other aircraft are this way too. If I am incorrect, please let me know. It was just a thought I had today. This takes some of the uniqueness out of each design, but it also simplifies the whole Gyro movement. If a guy or a girl can fly an entry-level Gyro that has very similar means of control and actuation of the rotor system it would allow the true performance differences between brands to shine. Just a thought I had. I doubt it will ever happen.
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Abid
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No. You should keep it up because that is how everything is landed. Gyro, airplane, trike. You should be as slow as possible as your front wheel (btw, the weakest part of every aircraft), touches down. Because you want to be a competent pilot. That's why.
Abid
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Mike
I cannot say why any specific aircraft manufacturer does anything and if it is better or worse. Mt point simply was we cannot start pointing at design right off the bat. This accident had very little to do with design from what I can see. This is a case of a rookie pilot putting himself out there after a long break in a very busy controlled airport and letting someone else dictate his timeline and thus take on pressure that he and his skill and experience level did not handle. He did make it to 50 feet. There was no evidence of rotors chopping the tail off in the pictures so it does not seem like a typical blade sailing on takeoff roll accident. It seems like the typical I am going to take off too slow and keep pulling the stick back all the way and freeze accident with a powerful engine. Similar to that video of Paul Salmon student's accident.
I can only say each aircraft model has its own things and we have to learn how to handle those things if we want to fly them.
Why is Cessna models have tow brakes whereas Cherokee 140, 160 have a hand lever. Why Grummans have castering nose wheel and Cessna have steerable nose wheels on the ground. Why are there throttle quadrants in some airplanes and vernier throttles in others? Why some have yokes and steering columns versus control sticks? Why some have only central Y sticks instead of one on each side. Why many airplanes are made so I have to fly them with my left hand instead my dominant right hand. Whose idea was that? Who knows? But I do know whatever I am going to fly, I better learn how to deal with its systems.
Actually, I have only talked to your dad twice. Once on the phone well before I started in gyroplanes and once at Bensen Days for a few minutes. I would not say that me and him have had disagreements. I certainly have not that I know of. I think he and Greg disagreed when Greg tested a set of rotors your dad wanted him to test on the AR-1 but I was not really there. Your dad seemed burnt out. He probably was sick of dealing with people. I understand that.
There is no perfect solution in designing these things. Everything is a compromise. The pneumatic system that when it starts having issues is full of frustration and complexity grounding one because it does both pre-rotation as well as trim; is elegant when it is working perfectly and a swear word generator when it doesn't and its pneumatic solenoids are certainly not something your corner A&P is going to know anything about. It is easy to manipulate compared to Magni or AR-1 handle that has to be squeezed in, for older pilots but it is dead simple and any A&P can take one look and quickly understand what is going on and help. So which one is better? It depends.
When you say beginner, which beginner? There is no one size fits all beginners. I have had people with RA in their hands and would prefer toe brakes and people who did not make a single peep holding the hand brake like it was not even anything to talk about. I have had people who could not use rudder pedals because their toe joints were double jointed. I had people who were missing literally 2 fingers on their hand which holds the hand brake. I have had people whose one leg and foot is paralyzed. People who bought the gyro knowing they cannot sit in the front seat because they are 350 pounds but they hope to lose weight and in the meantime their brother flies.
I mean manipulating controls in aircraft easy. That is a loaded thought. Is any taildragger airplane a natural for any beginner. Hell no. Are heel brakes natural. Absolutely positively not. These are skills to be learnt and mastered in airplanes and in gyroplanes. We start to think driving cars is all natural. Not so much. My teenage son is learning to drive. Nothing is exactly natural. It is just that we do it when we are fairly young and get so used to it, we forget how it was. It becomes natural in time.
The point being we design aircraft for a certain target. We expect them to be healthy, normally mobile, of normal reasonable strength of certain height range and certain weight range. Nothing can be designed that fits everything for everyone.
Piloting = multi-tasking
If you can't, don't become a pilot. That is the name of the game in flying aircraft. You have to manage multiple concerns and acts.
Gyros are supposed to be easier to fly compared to what? That really isn't true. Is it easier to fly than an airplane? It depends on the airplane but I would disagree. In airplanes generally you can trim and let the controls be. I have yet to see a single rotorcraft (besides helis with autopilots) where you can completely let go of the cyclic for extended periods of time and they just stay steady S&L. Most rotorcraft pretty much require your hand to be on the cyclic. Gyroplanes also require more attention to throttle compared to say airplanes.
I would not say gyroplanes are easy. They are different. They can handle turbulence easier than airplanes and trikes pound for pound.
We have to learn the ART of controlling each aircraft type we fly. 152 is way different than a Cub which is way different than a KitFox which is way different than a Cirrus SR20 which is way different than a Pipestrel motorglider. You want to fly all of these, better get your thinking hat on and learn it and suck it all up. And then fly a trike and invert every control sense to opposite both in the air and on the ground. This is all the job of us pilots.
I completely agree about constant improvement in design. You have to understand certification kind of puts a brake on that because it becomes very cumbersome to make changes. It is a double edged sword.
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Tyger
Super Member
Why? Oh, idk, maybe just because I'm not as skillful as you even after 1500+ (mostly uneventful) landings... Probably few people are.
That's sort of like asking me why my tennis strokes don't always land just short of the baseline. Would I like them to? Sure.
But anyway, I'd much rather touch down with a just little forward motion than run out of airspeed just a couple of feet in the air.
EI-GYRO
21st Century Crankhandler
You didn't get my point, Abid. Yes, you should, but you shouldn't HAVE to. The penalty for a less than perfect landing should not be a wreck.
Greg Vos
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The correct procedure in safe handling a gyroplane ( if trained from the outset) is to keep the nose wheel off …and gently put it down as the aircraft stops….if you cannot do this consistently at 1500 landings then there is propblem? and I suggest some duel training with a competent instructor …doing it with a M16 is also not difficult and cross wind or no wind has little to do with it…but hey let’s rather argue it and then all agree that since we can’t master a technique it must then simply be a skill reserved for only a few ….I see guys with les than 80 hours total time on gyro doing it, consistently
your comment run out of airspeed in the air? By the time your ready to gently put the nose wheel down your mains should be firmly on the ground, if your not able to do this I am serious it’s time for check ride, it costs nothing and there is no harm in doing it and asking a instructor to join you, any instructor worth his salt will gladly do it and normally foc in the line of safety and good airmanship
Abid
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Sure and it’s usually not. I have first hand seen plenty of less than perfect landings in a MTO and they did not result in a wreck. I have always said Cavalon is not the best choice for a first Gyroplane for a new pilot. Its main wheels and front wheel are coupled too close. Its main gear is only 66 inch wide at best and very spring like.
Yes MTO would not forgive what an AR-1 or a Magni would and likely they would not forgive as much as a Sport Copter Vortex. But usually by the time a person is becoming a pilot they should be fairly consistent in landing. Shortcuts work till one day they don’t. Run on touchdowns with front wheel on the ground in a gyro is like a small lie. Every time you do it, it should bother you.
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MikeBoyette
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Once again differing styles. This was not the way I was taught. If landing at the the intersection on a full stop landing then yes. If doing a full touch and go no. My three instructors all had me set the machine down on the main gear. Then the nose wheel while still rolling and proceed with the new take off. In a Dominator this I’m not a problem because of the free castoring nose gear. Later when I was proficient enough that I began to perform my touch and goes with out letting the nose gear touch. A Dominator maybe different because we have much more weight on the nose wheel. My machine had 130lbs on the nose wheel with my big butt in it. This was done so takeoffs were shorter. Once the nose wheel came off you could go full power if you wanted without fear of a high speed flap. Most gyros have less than 35-50 lbs on the nose wheel.The correct procedure in safe handling a gyroplane ( if trained from the outset) is to keep the nose wheel off …and gently put it down as the aircraft stops….if you cannot do this consistently at 1500 landings then there is propblem? and I suggest some duel training with a competent instructor …doing it with a M16 is also not difficult and cross wind or no wind has little to do with it…but hey let’s rather argue it and then all agree that since we can’t master a technique it must then simply be a skill reserved for only a few ….I see guys with les than 80 hours total time on gyro doing it, consistently
your comment run out of airspeed in the air? By the time your ready to gently put the nose wheel down your mains should be firmly on the ground, if your not able to do this I am serious it’s time for check ride, it costs nothing and there is no harm in doing it and asking a instructor to join you, any instructor worth his salt will gladly do it and normally foc in the line of safety and good airmanship
Abid
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Mike most new gyroplanes like AR-1 would have 225 pounds or more on the front wheel loaded up. Once front wheel comes off the ground if you don’t go to full throttle smoothly all you are doing is wasting runway.
MikeBoyette
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That’s good. Would this have an influence of Davie?
