Blade Flap

In response to the initial question, I take the liberty of quoting the following exerpts from a chapter written by Miss Jennings. Ab initios should take heed.


'A word or three about starting the rotor blades in strong wind conditions, as it can be tricky and requires patience. It’s a common misconception that a strong wind blowing up your disc is a good thing – and in the right place at the right time it certainly can be advantageous - but not necessarily when you want to start the blades. These days, the majority of gyrocopters wear pre-rotators which makes life considerably easier, but it’s good (what am I saying - it’s essential!!!) to know how to start the rotors by hand, as it gives you that extra in-depth understanding that’s otherwise lost by relying on the mechanical drive. Hand starting in a strong wind is an excellent illustration of how autorotating blades behave, and shows you exactly why they can’t be forced to fly before they’re ready. Although the machine is stationary, the airspeed is already high – say 15 mph for example, because of the wind strength, so the danger is that the rotors will be taking too much air before they are spinning fast enough to cope with it. You must get the blades turning as fast as you can with the stick held forward before attempting to open them up to the wind, even then bring the stick back very carefully and be ready to put it forward straight away should the rotors threaten to sail.

I always attempt to demonstrate incipient blade sail in a static lesson with the machine chocked on the runway, so the student can learn to recognise the symptoms and take appropriate action to stop things escalating to the drastic stages. Often I’m foiled by the gentle mannered RotorHawks accepting the abuse, and riding out the extra buckets of air I’m trying to force through them - while my student sits there wondering what all the fuss is about! Don’t be fooled I say: even these placid old blades have their moments, and should they decide they’re not happy, you’re soon going to know all about it if you’re not paying proper attention to them.
It starts with a small kick back through the stick about once per second, accompanied by a knocking sound from the rotor head. Normally, I’d correct it straight away by putting the stick forward and letting the blades settle before attempting to open them up again, but I want to show you a little more of the potentially destructive power we have turning above our heads, and so I do the wrong thing and bring the stick back a bit further, sending more air into the rotors. The advancing blade rises up steeply and forces its partner down; the stick kicks harder in your hand and the rotors bang loudly against the head stops. And this is just the beginning. Already it takes both hands to get the stick forward and kill off the wind – and we’re just parked up here, going nowhere. Believe me, you DO NOT want this to happen when the machine is moving.
Never try to force the blades up to speed, and never ever, ever try to fly before they’re ready to go – always wait for that nosewheel to lift. It’s a natural fail-safe. Unless you’re flying an enclosed machine (in which the cabin reduces sensory contact with the blades), forget rev counters, tachos, fancy instruments that simply add another element for potential error - the rotors themselves will tell you if they’re happy or not, and you need to know how to read them. There is absolutely no reason why you should let your rotor blades bite you.'
 
Birdy you are in clear violation of FAA Rule 16B Part A Sub Par 22 Exceptions and Restrictions to the aforementioned restricted exceptions in variance to standard rules as excepted. To wit:

Thou shalt not imitate a helicopter.


Commander Wallis was trying out an experimental short field landing technique he was working on called forward flip and roll landings. According to Wikipedia he stopped further development after he reviewed that film.
 
Since the blades when airborne are now probably going faster than the prerotator is capable of, surely the 'prespin' now has no input to the blades?
The gearing ratio between engine and prespinner is high enuff to be still driven the blades at full flight rrpms Resasi.
I know this coz wen i do let the clutch go, i feel the machine drop slightly as it passes from a partial powered rotor condition to a full auto condition. And the engine rpm jumps up a little as well.
At a gess, the gearing im run'n now would have the rotor at bout 450rpm wen the engine is at max rpm. But the clutch can only get them to 250 odd rpm without slippn at a standstill. Wen i open to WOT, the clutch slips and allows the engine to over run the spinner.

Red Bird, that sheila is alot smarter than most blokes i know.
If she's an instructer, she should be the cheif of cheifs. ;)

FAA Rule 16B Part A Sub Par 22 Exceptions and Restrictions to the aforementioned restricted exceptions in variance to standard rules as excepted. To wit:
Wot the ell dose all that waffle mean?
 
Hey TJ

Hey TJ

There've been many threads that mention blade flap over the years but not anything in depth that I can find.

I've never experienced blade flap.

I talked about it with my CFI during flight training and I must be doing my pre-rotation sequence right since I've never experienced it but, what is it?

What does it feel like and how do you feel it coming?

Tommy

If your instructor didn't teach you that,,,, YOU BEST Get ANOTHER Instructor
 
I would have to agree with your comment Birdy. That excerpt from Miss Shirly Jennings is a crystal clear and eloquently put explanation that commands attention.

She made the comment that to learn hand pre-rotating was a very valuable lesson in blade management. How very right she is.

Thank you also Birdy for the clarification on the availability of the prerotator in flight.
 
Thaks for the advice, Steve.

I said that I've never experienced it, not that it wasn't taught or discussed.

Intellectually, I know what it is but how many of us have actually experienced it, intentionally during training or unintentionally through improper rotor management?

Tommy
 
That excerpt from Miss Shirly Jennings is a crystal clear and eloquently put explanation that commands attention.

She made the comment that to learn hand pre-rotating was a very valuable lesson in blade management. How very right she is.



And if I may...IMO, no better nor safer environment to learning rotor control than with a towed glider. ;)


Cheers :)
 
But, if you want to know my way, here goes.
[ firstly you need a prespinner that gets your blades to min flight rpm, and be able to hold it on till you break ground.]
Prespin to max capability,[ in my case, bout 250 rpm], with full backstick to hold machine from creepn forwards.
Once max rrpm is gained, simultainiously push stick to near full forward and got to WOT, while maintaining prespinner engaugement.
In bout 2 secs, or 30 paces youll reach low flight AS with rotors at TO rpm.
Ease back on the stick and ascend near virtical. Hold prespinner engauged till clear of trees, machanical turbulance or wotever it is.


G'Day Birdy,

Do I understand you pre-rotate to 250 with full back stick, the push the stick to near full forward stick as you begin your roll out, then full back stick again????

Cheers,

Mitch
 
Once max rrpm is gained, simultainiously push stick to near full forward and got to WOT, while maintaining prespinner engaugement.
In bout 2 secs, or 30 paces youll reach low flight AS with rotors at TO rpm.
Ease back on the stick and ascend near virtical.

Nearly spoton Mitch.
Only the second pull back, to break ground, would only be back to just past cruise position, not full back.
 
Birdy,

Is this a no risk of flap process?

I guess not, the gyro is not going to have a high speed flap, cause your not hootin along.

Does your pre-rotator induce lots of torque when your rolling out still engaged?

Interesting stuff.

Thanks,

Mitch.
 
My new spinner gets 290 sitting still, tested it this arvo, fairly happy with that, i just need to try and get more pressure on the clutch now, but all that for another 20 odd rpm is not a real concern ATM
 
No risk of flapn um like that Mitch, and the power curve is along way off too. ;)

Does your pre-rotator induce lots of torque when your rolling out still engaged?
Yes, its a handful till you get the feel.
Bit by bit mate, youll be orrite.

Bones, i wouldnt bother with the clutch.
The more load you put on that liitle bendix gear, the quicker itll shat itself.
The method is the trick, and if your getn 290 without wind, the rite method will get you off in less than 30 paces. :)
 
Interesting. I was taught stick back, full power when ok (front wheel lifts), balance with wheel just off the ground and let her lift off when ready. This was from the single seat days of solid axle etc so you wanted to get off with as little ground speed as possible.

I do the same in my Magni except as soon as 200rpm is on the blades it is safe to go straight to full throttle. Then when front lifts, balance and let her lift off when ready.

I always assumed this would be the shortist TO routine but maybe a flatter disc would get to take off speed quicker. I doubt if my machine has the rudder power if you keep the pre-rotator in though, so may end up screaming along without enough rrpm.
 
Just for the record, ASRA is aware of an MT 03 rollover recently probably due to incorrect pilot technique on takeoff which involved the use of a pre-rotator.

We are also aware of an ELA accident in Oz which was caused by the failure of the pilot to release the park brake when the gyro started skidding on damp tarmac and he elected to continue with the takeoff.
Quote taken from ASRA site, comment by Ops Mgr.

G'Day Birdy and All,

Mate my concern would be that flattening the disc then gunning it, could result in 'forgeting' to get the disc back soon enough. I think the first accident stated above, was a high speed flap, due to 'forgeting to get the stick back. I'll double check on that with Allan.

Also we are given MLS Pre-rotator instructions to follow and are advised in same that releasing the brake prior to disengaging the pre-rotator will result in the gyro wanting to do a 'serious' right hand turn.

I guess Brian's post is more in line with what I was taught and have been advised to do with MLS.

I would like to investigate this technique further though Birdy. As you say working your way up the rrpm scale little by little, would likely show what is and is not viable with this system.

My fear is getting high speed flap. I have had low speed flap a couple of times and quickly arrested it with stick forward. The Bensen Blades (46 lbs) 2 times when learning to spin up by hand and again with the Patroneys (76 lbs) on one occassion.

Cheers,

Mitch.
 
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Wondering if this high speed flap might equate to the 3 instances of in-flight blade flap recently discussed with the instructor some days ago? One witnessed and 2 he experienced, one of which brought him down. He stated in the second he had 'rushed' the machine into the air a bit too quickly.

In the one witnessed, the pilot Jim Ponsford had got airborne, experienced severe vibration landed then come to ask Peter Lovegrove to look at his controls. They were all good. The second time he did a low hop it seemed to the observers that the rotors were not flying normally though they were not quite sure what was happening.

These 3 instances were with DW's and some years ago. I write this because was just speaking to Peter Lovegrove about the prerotator we want about an hour ago and he happened to mention the incident, corroborating my instructors account. I was interested because of this thread, and what Greg has just mentioned.

Does not seem to be a common occurrence and in all the three above was just after take off at what would seem to be relatively high rrpm's. As has been stated though any time too much air is pushed through the rotor it can flap. I am supposing that does not necessarily have to be on the ground?
 
Interesting. I was taught stick back, full power when ok (front wheel lifts), balance with wheel just off the ground and let her lift off when ready.
And wot you were taught was spoton Brian.
Mitch asked how "I" do it, in "MY" machine.
A machine with a good power to weight ratio and a powerfull prespinner that can stay engauged while at flight rrpms.
This method isnt from every gyro.

Iv heard that the Magnis, mt03s and ELAs all have a similar prespinner setup. One that MUST BE DISSENGAUGED before the roll starts.
So obviously, the method will be different.

I do the same in my Magni except as soon as 200rpm is on the blades it is safe to go straight to full throttle. Then when front lifts, balance and let her lift off when ready.
And thats the correct way to do it.
But Mitch is talkn bout short take offs.

I always assumed this would be the shortist TO routine but maybe a flatter disc would get to take off speed quicker.
Your spoton again. :)
With the rotors at near flight rpms before your start your roll, they are like a huge air break, holdn the machine back.
If i go to WOT with the stick still on the backstop, it takes alot longer to get to min AS for lift off.
With the stick forward, theres no airbreak, and i can go from 0 to 30 mph in under 2 seconds, or 30 paces. [yards]
As i approch bout 20 mph, the stick comes back to a bit behind cruise position and by the time i reach 30mph its off the ground.
WARNING; this method can be very hazardous if your prespinner isnt still engauged.

Mate my concern would be that flattening the disc then gunning it, could result in 'forgeting' to get the disc back soon enough.
Itd depend on your rrpm before you blasted off, and wether your prespinner can be engauged while taken off Mitch.

I think the first accident stated above, was a high speed flap, due to 'forgeting to get the stick back
I think your rite.
Either he tryed to blast off with it still driven [ torque complications a plenty for the unaware] or he let the rrpm decay too much by the time he'd reached lift off speed. [ coz them spinners cant be used while in the blastoff mode]

Also we are given MLS Pre-rotator instructions to follow and are advised in same that releasing the brake prior to disengaging the pre-rotator will result in the gyro wanting to do a 'serious' right hand turn.
That warning is there for a reason Mitch, [ the one they give] dont ignor it mate. ;)

As you say working your way up the rrpm scale little by little, would likely show what is and is not viable with this system.
Thats rite.
I havent seen your spinner setup, but im gessn it could be used as i use mine, but i think youd want a full manual clutch control so youv got proper control over it.
If iv got it rite, your setup now wont let the motor go to full rpms anyway, coz your belts wont slip like my clutch can. Its a more positive drive than a two face clutch.

I am supposing that does not necessarily have to be on the ground?
Your supposing rite Resasi.
If you give it too much air for the rrpms you have up, they will try to hinge past the limiters [ flap], no matter wot rrpms you think you have.
 
Blade flap happens at every blade RPM. If you want to avoid dangerous blade flap then you need to control the speed of the gyro in the wind.

We need blade flap to equalize lift across the rotor disk. It is only a problem when we exceed the limit of travel provided for blade flap. The faster you are moving or the wind is blowing the higher the RPM needs to be to avoid the dangerous blade flap sequence.

Forward motion or wind increases the differential lift. The blades flap to equalize this lift. If you have ever seen the blade higher on one side than on the other then you have seen or experienced blade flap.

If you continue until you feel it in the stick as a bump or a big stirring motion then you need to take corrective action immediately or risk loosing your blades and possibly your life. Cut the power, push the blades forward to dump the lift, steer, and break. Good luck

I typically feel blade flap in the stick on a windy day while trying to get the blades up to speed and after landing while getting the blades stopped.
 
My new spinner gets 290 sitting still, tested it this arvo, fairly happy with that, i just need to try and get more pressure on the clutch now, but all that for another 20 odd rpm is not a real concern ATM

Thats great going Bones! My old girl will lift off with 270 so 290 would mean keeping a good feel on the controls!!
 
If iv got it rite, your setup now wont let the motor go to full rpms anyway, coz your belts wont slip like my clutch can. Its a more positive drive than a two face clutch.

Thanks for clarifying this Birdy.

The MLS can be spun up to 325 rrpm with DW's at 6250 engine rpm.

I now have the new 1/2" MC and the Nylaflow pressure tubing will be here within days.
The 220 rrpm I was getting at 'brake away' engine rpm at 3900-4000, should be improved upon if the new setup holds me to 6250.

I was told recently by another Monarch owner that at 75 rrpm he tilts the disc all the way back and runs it up from there using wind and prop blast to ensure a quicker spin up. I have been taking the blades up to approx 140 rrpm with the disc flat before bring the stick all the way back and continuing to pre-rotate. Once 200 plus is on the clock, we can go to WOT.

Cheers,

Mitch.
 
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