New gyros - New problems?

[mceagle]

Full control authority in case of an engine failure is a characteristic which is present in the new European gyros, but it is not in many other gyros.

I disagree with this Ferran - in fact quite the opposite.
If you do not believe me then try a simulated engine failure in a stretch tandem at best rate of climb speed, and then try to turn. It would even be worse at lesser airspeeds.
I believe there was one such incident previously quoted on this forum where the pilot ended up up-side down and was lucky to live to tell the tale - and he still had an engine!!!

 

[Fl90]

Addressing the first post, it's the people.

A gyro offer a ride that no other machine does. The people that like the ability of a gyro over other forms of flight have a need for it. A gyro's agilty and ease can lure a person into adverse flying. It has done this to me, more than once. Then you rely on an understanding of the machine, the ability to supress panick, and the hope of it all working out in time.

If you miss any of those, well, it's not good.

Phil

 

[birdy]

but it is not in many other gyros.
And wot ever gave you this idea????

Iv flown the new European gyros, and if your talkn controle authority, they have the least.
Stability yes, authority, no.

 

[freebird]

I am a student who has completed about 16 hours of dual training. 10 in a sparrowhawk and 6 in a snowbird tandem. I have 3 more in an aircommand tandem with a BFI (rear seat).

I have been main balancing and crow hopping, etc. My little AC with a 582 is really a hot rod compared to the others. I have flown with 3 different CFI's and one BFI. There were minor differences between them and definite machine specific things.

As I continue, I am afraid that there are things that I missed. Things that will not become apparent until something bad is happening, or I am just trying to do something besides fly around in the pattern. Lets face it, a gyro is not a riding machine, it is a flying machine. Sooner or later I am going to want to try low and slow down the river bed, or yank and bank in the tree grotto.

I guess what I am saying is - Why not have training for more advanced flight technique? Sound methods that would not just tell you what to do, but why you do it so that you can translate the rule to your own machine.

I have heard that Mentone and others are great places to talk about this sort of thing and I am planning on making the trip to Wachula in April. I also plan to start attending the Houston chapter meetings for more info along this line.

Do these fellas in Europe have the same problem. Are they all too young with no "old and bolds" to teach them?

Are there other resources I should go to?

 

[ckurz7000]

...I guess what I am saying is - Why not have training for more advanced flight technique? Sound methods that would not just tell you what to do, but why you do it so that you can translate the rule to your own machine.

I guess the misconception starts with the majority of people who get their license believing that they now suddenly know it all and have over night transmogrified into masters of their machines.

In the European JAR PPL there's an add-on rating for aerobatics. You have to get additional instruction before doing any aerobatic maneuvers. Even though I don't think that this should be also required for gyros, it is important to instill into every newly hatched pilot's brain that they just earned themselves a license to LEARN.

I suggest that every CFI talk with their graduating students about continuing education. Have them gather some experience on their own and then, after 50 hours, return to get some additional instruction (maybe 3-5 hours) on advanced thechniques and also to iron out any bad habits acquired.

-- Chris.

 

[Gyro_Kai]

Iv flown the new European gyros, and if your talkn controle authority, they have the least.
Stability yes, authority, no.

Hello Birdy,

could you please elaborate a bit more? As we have very little chance to try another type of gyro here I would like to get some first hand impression. Which control direction do you consider inferior? Compared to which other type?


Kai.

 

[birdy]

it is important to instill into every newly hatched pilot's brain that they just earned themselves a license to LEARN.
Zactly Chris.
All the instructers job is, is to teach you how to drive the machine, and how to handle it, specialy in the involentary engine failure area.
Its then up to you, over a loooooooooong period of time, to learn how to FLY.
Sure, you can ask all the relivant questions later bout the wots n hows n whys, but you still gota LEARN it.

Kai, iv only flown the European magni, and from wot i gather on the forums, it is the bench mark machine. [ it must be, coz everyone else seems to want to copy it.]

Theres a big difference, specialy if your talkn more than just S/L stuff, between a solidly damped and stable machine,[ like a magni] and one that is not damped, but still stable. [ clt without damping]
The more 'solid' it is to fly [ damped], the less responsive it is to inputs. [ less authority]
You cant have both.

It may be trivial to most, but if blokes like Ferran are, quote;
I've written a book in spanish about autogiros: El autogiro y su vuelo, about the history, aerdinamics and how to fly it.
for the world public to read, he's gota get it rite.

 

[Gyro_Kai]

Kai, iv only flown the European magni, and from wot i gather on the forums, it is the bench mark machine. [ it must be, coz everyone else seems to want to copy it.]

Thanks a lot Birdy.

However, I think the Magni is very different from the MTs. Should you ever get a chance to try an MT, please take it and tell us about your thoughts

Kai.

 

[ckurz7000]

Birdy, the Magni and the MT03 are night and day when it comes to control authority! Even though they might share the general looks, there's BIG difference when you fly them. I bet the MT03 comes much closer to your taste of an agile flying machine.

Are you coming to Austria any time soon? We can't be so far apart, after all, since a lot of Americans seem to think they are one and the same (that was prior to Arnie Schwarzenegger becoming Governor of California, of course). Only once I made clear that Austria goes with "The Sound of Music" and Australia is where the 'roos live, did they seem to grasp the difference.

-- Chris.

 

[birdy]

Should you ever get a chance to try an MT.............
Mate, if a gyro flys over ere i throw a rope over it and sink the boot in, no matter wot breed it is.
If i can, i will, for sure.
If its got rotors, ill drive it.

Birdy, the Magni and the MT03 are night and day when it comes to control authority!
Iv constantly heard that same thing Chris, so yeh, a blap ina MT, or even an ELA would be interestn.

Are you coming to Austria any time soon?
Probably not Mate.
If its more n 7 hours ina gyro, its outa my range.
Recon if you woke up ere tomorrow youd think you was still in Austria. [ till you open the door and get hit by the humid 40C air ]
Iv been on this little 1500 squ mile patch of Oz for 40 years, and it still amazes me wot a transformation a little rain makes.

 

[Doug Riley]

Freebird, you are asking the right questions. What I found as a BFI was that most gyro trainees have not figured the cost of training into their gyro budgets. They want to get it over with in as short a time, for as little money, as is possible. Getting them to come back to finish even the basics was a struggle.

Just about any instructor will practically hug you with joy if you ask for more advanced instruction. It will be more fun for him/her than the endless touch & goes we have to do with beginners.

For now, though, practice the skills you have learned. You should not go hedge-hopping or doing showoff routines for at least the first 100 hours. What you can do is work very gradually into higher wind conditions and light cross-winds. Plot out a cross-country, do all the preliminary homework and then fly it. Keep running through basic control drills -- S-turns, 360's, 720's, recovery from behind-the-power-curve, vertical descents. Practice engine-outs from various locations within the pattern.

There is plenty for you to do by yourself that will safely add to your skills and will give you a sense of accomplishment with each flight.

 

[ferranrosello]

Tim, I’ve tried (not only simulated) engine failures in an Ela. Once was when a helmet part flipped out and broke two propeller blades. It was a twin training flight, we were climbing at 60 mph (Vy) and I had to shut down the engine immediately. In all occasions I’ve been plenty of control authority in all axes. I’ve flown magnis, but I’ve had not this experience in them. But I think they are the same in control authority. I don’t understand what happened to that MT 03, but it seems to have been the pilots fault.

Birdy, true CLT doesn’t take into account frame drag (and this is something more than just my opinion). If you fly a true CLT you still need a good HS in order to keep your gyro flying straight into air in the event of 0g situations.

Birdy, what you are doing with my post is a total deception putting the things out of their context. What I wrote not was:

but it is not in many other gyros.

It was:

“Full control authority in case of an engine failure is a characteristic which is present in the new European gyros, but it is not in many other gyros.”

I’ve flown some gyros, like the Air Command, that without the propeller blowing air into the tail you lose yaw control authority. This problem is common in all gyros which relay in the engine blowing over flight tail surfaces to hold stability and yaw control… If the engine quits…

Ferran

 

[ferranrosello]

I entirely agree with you Doug. This is the best advice you can give anybody. I would like to add only we are never to end our training. Always there are things to discover and to learn, and the only way to succeed in flying is taking a learnable and humidly attitude. And this is true for very experienced pilots too.

Ferran

 

[ferranrosello]

I don’t understand why Mr Birdy has made a quote about my profile which has nothing to do with what we are talking about here. Anyway it is true, I wrote this book. And this doesn’t mean I know everything about gyros. In this forum there are people who knows much more than me. This is the best rotary wing forum I know and I’m very happy to be here trying to learn and to share knowledge with all of you. The fact that I’ve got a book published about gyros doesn’t mean, I hope, that I cannot freely express my opinions in this forum.

Ferran

 

[birdy]

Birdy, true CLT doesn’t take into account frame drag
TRUE CLT means the thrust passes through the center of mass AND center of pressure.

If you fly a true CLT you still need a good HS in order to keep your gyro flying straight into air in the event of 0g situations.
Your mixing authority with stability, and you cant have both.

I don’t understand why Mr Birdy has made a quote about my profile which has nothing to do with what we are talking about here.
You dont see the revilance???
If youv ritn a book, that states; aerdinamics and how to fly it., then in order to do your reader justice, you need to know first.
Im not sayn your a dumbass, im sayn if your go'n to tell sumone how it flys and how to fly it, you better have a VERY good understanding of the subject.

For the record, i was readn a book bout gyros, before i even flew one, and i looked up autorotation, hopen to get a basic understanding of the physics.
You can imagine my dissapointment wen the auther said ;
" imagine the blades as a wet cake of soap between your fingures, now squeeze your fingures on the soap and the soap will slip out. This is how rotor blades react wen spin'n in air at atmospherice pressures" .
!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wota lota crap, even a non flyer knows thats crap, and i read it in a real gyro book!!!!!

Now, i know you wouldnt say sumthn as dumb as that in your book Ferran, but i assume you get my drift.

that I cannot freely express my opinions in this forum.
Thats where you gota be carefull Ferran.
Coz its ritn in a book, sum will take it as FACT, not OPINION.
Wether your opinion is correct or not, its still only an opinion.

 

[Heron]

The instructor I fired used to have a bar of soap to show an tell how the blades moved.
And he teached the blad flap by moving the head back and forth by twisting the blades.
Precious!
Heron

 

[birdy]

The instructor I fired used to have a bar of soap to show an tell how the blades moved.
Smart move on your part Heron.

 

[PW_Plack]

TRUE CLT means the thrust passes through the center of mass AND center of pressure.

Huh? Birdy, with all due respect, that's a worthy (if difficult) design goal, but I don't think it matches the consensus definition.

If this were the case, only machines with the CoM and CoP on the same line could ever be "CLT." Since CoP for a collection of connected, irregularly shaped objects (such as the various shapes which comprise a gyro) will vary with both speed and angle of attack, any attempt to define CoP will hold only for a very narrow slice of possible conditions.

I've always thought the important design issue in CoP would be trying to keep it above CoM for all combinations of airspeed and AoA, so the rotors would always try to reload themselves, and slip/roll coupling would be in the stable direction, not necessarily aligning it with the thrustline.

Having CoP change with varying airframe AoA is not a bad thing. Arranging surfaces so the CoP moves rearward when the machine departs zero degrees AoA (as happens with tail surfaces which are large and/or on a long arm) is one way to get both static and dynamic stability.

 

[ferranrosello]

Thank you for your answer, Birdy. But it is not the same to be writing a book than writing in this forum. The forum is a great opportunity to communicate with other people who want to talk about gyros. Is time for relax and to share opinions, experiences and knowledge not to perform a very deep investigation prior to write in the forum. Anyway, my book is written from a pilot’s point of view. I’m not an engineer and never have made any advice about how to design and to make a gyro.

Birdy, I’m not mixing controllability and stability; it is you who is confusing controllability with manouevring. Controllability is the capability to initiate or to stop a manoeuvre at the pilots will. Manoeuvring describes how fast the aircraft in doing so is.

And about CLT I agree with Paul: the body’s CP is changing with the airflow incidence. In case of flying close to 0g in a gyro with a direct control rotor system and with a teetering rotor will have no control authority in pitch and roll. So I think that is necessary to make something to prevent uncommanded attitude changes when flying in this condition until the positive g flight has been recovered. And by now, the only way I know to do this is using an effective HS.

Ferràn

 

[WaspAir]

For those individuals that could comprehend the written word, the Benson method of self-training was excellent. Start with a towline, graduate to wheel balancing and finally crow hops. The Benson training manual wasn’t crammed with incorrect information.
...
Training by the Benson method required a partnership; one driving and one gliding. My partner and I both learned to fly without ever so much as scratching a blade.

Not everybody was so lucky. Here's a fatal accident in a towed engineless Bensen:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=42347&key=0

Perhaps you underestimate your own aptitude or overestimate the average Joe (or maybe some of both). We can't know the activity level to get any sort of rate information, but the NTSB records show over 100 killed in the U.S. in Bensen/Benson gyros (they spell it both ways in the data), and the self-taught ranks undoubtedly are well represented in that figure. Of course, some will have followed the prescribed course more closely than others, but without an accomplished coach/debriefer/instructor to analyze and help with self-discipline, promoting the idea that all can learn what they should safely along the way through self-training (as advertised in the old days) is naive at best, if not culpable.

Meanwhile, while looking up the Bensen numbers, I found that the yaw-roll "coffin corner" that Doug mentioned for the A&S18A doesn't appear to have killed anybody. Of the three fatal accidents I found in the NTSB database, one was Don Farrington's heart attack in the pattern, one was a one-eyed student pilot on Prozac flying into a hill on a night cross-country in bad weather (no, I'm not kidding), and the other was a high-time pilot buzzing a river who flew into power lines. Apparently, people have shown lots of creativity in rolling 18As and J-2s into balls of debris, but it's generally not lethal.