curtisscholl
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Ventana7
I know that's right!!
I know that's right!!
Ultralight Gyro Accident Video << Newbie would like an explanation of how it was "predictable"
- Thread starter curtisscholl
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curtisscholl
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Vance:
Yep, in the Stearman, left stick, right rudder...in a Cessna left yoke and right rudder. I remember the panic from my first solo high gust crosswind landing....came out ok... just followed the standard practice as the instructor told me...and kept an eye out for airspeed.
I will have to get used to a stick on a gyro though. I used too much in a turn on that M16 ride. Felt uncoordinated.
Thanks a bunch...and will call as you suggest.
Curtis Scholl
.
Yep, in the Stearman, left stick, right rudder...in a Cessna left yoke and right rudder. I remember the panic from my first solo high gust crosswind landing....came out ok... just followed the standard practice as the instructor told me...and kept an eye out for airspeed.
I will have to get used to a stick on a gyro though. I used too much in a turn on that M16 ride. Felt uncoordinated.
Thanks a bunch...and will call as you suggest.
Curtis Scholl
.
Tyger
Super Member
Too much stick??
curtisscholl
Gold Supporter
Tyger:
""Too much stick??"'
Right turn, no rudder, pulled the stick too far right into a bank, it felt as if I went past 15 degrees, and pulled back too much to compensate to keep altitude, rather than lightening up on the stick. Newbie goof. I had the stick for all of 5 minutes straight and level, then a turn, twice,,,too much. Seemed a lot longer.
In a helicopter, small movements make it work, and since the rotor is the whole wing, I moved the whole wing in the M16 too much in anticipation of a banking turn, I went into the Cessna 172 yoke mode and it was too much.
Live and learn, and glad the instructor was calm about it.
Curtis Scholl
""Too much stick??"'
Right turn, no rudder, pulled the stick too far right into a bank, it felt as if I went past 15 degrees, and pulled back too much to compensate to keep altitude, rather than lightening up on the stick. Newbie goof. I had the stick for all of 5 minutes straight and level, then a turn, twice,,,too much. Seemed a lot longer.
In a helicopter, small movements make it work, and since the rotor is the whole wing, I moved the whole wing in the M16 too much in anticipation of a banking turn, I went into the Cessna 172 yoke mode and it was too much.
Live and learn, and glad the instructor was calm about it.
Curtis Scholl
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Good morning Curtis Scholl,
It is common for a low time pilot to over control with the cyclic and either raise or lower the nose entering turns.
In the Rotorcraft Flying Handbook they have and exercise to practice that called S turns over a road.
https://www.ronsgyros.com/Gyro_Handbook.pdf
Unlike a fixed wing there is no adverse yaw so there is not much pedal work in most gyroplanes.
Different models may require more or less pedal work.
Gyroplanes use a yaw string or flag to identify uncoordinated flight something like the ball in a fixed wing only it is backward. It points at the appropriate pedal.
As with most aircraft you establish a bank with a little pressure on the cyclic and then relax pressure as you maintain the turn with opposite pressure to roll out.
With most gyroplanes it is about pressure on the cyclic rather than movement.
A common error is to be vague about rolling in and rolling out resulting in over banking and poor aircraft control.
You must keep in mind that in the air a gyroplane does not steer with the rudder; the rudder is just to manage yaw.
For an experienced fixed wing pilot the air work in a gyroplane comes quickly because except for the lack of adverse yaw and slow control response it is similar.
Takeoffs and landings are a little more challenging because they require some precision and involve managing the rotor.
The delay in the cyclic response is disconcerting at first and becomes natural over time.
The delay makes the sight picture more important because the flight instruments will have a delay. Lower the nose a little and the gyroplane will gradually pick up speed. If you are focused on your airspeed indicator you will always be behind the aircraft. The flight instruments are for calibrating you sight picture.
In most gyroplanes banked 15 degrees you probably didn’t need much rudder for a coordinated turn.
It is common for a low time pilot to over control with the cyclic and either raise or lower the nose entering turns.
In the Rotorcraft Flying Handbook they have and exercise to practice that called S turns over a road.
https://www.ronsgyros.com/Gyro_Handbook.pdf
Unlike a fixed wing there is no adverse yaw so there is not much pedal work in most gyroplanes.
Different models may require more or less pedal work.
Gyroplanes use a yaw string or flag to identify uncoordinated flight something like the ball in a fixed wing only it is backward. It points at the appropriate pedal.
As with most aircraft you establish a bank with a little pressure on the cyclic and then relax pressure as you maintain the turn with opposite pressure to roll out.
With most gyroplanes it is about pressure on the cyclic rather than movement.
A common error is to be vague about rolling in and rolling out resulting in over banking and poor aircraft control.
You must keep in mind that in the air a gyroplane does not steer with the rudder; the rudder is just to manage yaw.
For an experienced fixed wing pilot the air work in a gyroplane comes quickly because except for the lack of adverse yaw and slow control response it is similar.
Takeoffs and landings are a little more challenging because they require some precision and involve managing the rotor.
The delay in the cyclic response is disconcerting at first and becomes natural over time.
The delay makes the sight picture more important because the flight instruments will have a delay. Lower the nose a little and the gyroplane will gradually pick up speed. If you are focused on your airspeed indicator you will always be behind the aircraft. The flight instruments are for calibrating you sight picture.
In most gyroplanes banked 15 degrees you probably didn’t need much rudder for a coordinated turn.
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curtisscholl
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Vance:
Thanks for the input. I have been berating myself ever since that flight. I believe I wrote you about that experience.
When I do get to approach an instructor I will be handing him my PPSEL, and an empty log book. I will tell whoever it is that I have emptied my flying experience "bucket" and he/she and I will be filling it new. I believe it would be best to train like I have never flown anything before.
I earned my PPSEL in 1977 in 150/172. Flew family and friends around Arkansas, Texas and Oklahoma on an irregular basis, then joined the USAF as a helicopter mechanic. Had to put it away for a very long time to raise a family. So I am an inexperienced pilot.
Curtis Scholl
Thanks for the input. I have been berating myself ever since that flight. I believe I wrote you about that experience.
When I do get to approach an instructor I will be handing him my PPSEL, and an empty log book. I will tell whoever it is that I have emptied my flying experience "bucket" and he/she and I will be filling it new. I believe it would be best to train like I have never flown anything before.
I earned my PPSEL in 1977 in 150/172. Flew family and friends around Arkansas, Texas and Oklahoma on an irregular basis, then joined the USAF as a helicopter mechanic. Had to put it away for a very long time to raise a family. So I am an inexperienced pilot.
Curtis Scholl
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Tyger
Super Member
Vance has explained things quite well, I think. And it seems silly to berate yourself... if you have forgotten much of what you learned over 40 years ago in a Cessna, that's not surprising, and not such a loss for gyroplane flying, it seems to me. Have fun learning some new stuff!
curtisscholl
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Thanks Tyger!
Curtis
Curtis
Tyger
Super Member
Back to the video... where on earth was this guy trying to operate from, a beach access road or something?? It looks like the final tip over actually came from hitting the curb while leaving the throttle wide open.
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curtisscholl
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Yes, that is no airport "runway" he is operating from. I have never seen jersey barriers on an airport.
Trying for a STOL takeoff? Launching in a dare?
Trying for a STOL takeoff? Launching in a dare?
curtisscholl
Gold Supporter
Going back to the original video, I have seen crash videos that have similar characteristics. The sudden lift off, then a slowdown, a turn to one side or another then a tipover and rotor strike or pancake that causes rotors to sag then hit ground. The one on YouTube from Converse airport is one, and another is a red ship with a bulbous canopy on a two place gyro SBS..that seems to me to be a center of pressure vs center of gravity problem...if the CP is ahead of the CG...it will turn around due to aerodynamic forces. Like the new fighters..slightly negative stability requires a constant input to keep it going straight.
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I feel lifting off at low airspeed and high angle of attack is the edge of trouble.
It is one of the things I am required to teach.
When on the ground a gyroplane steers with the rudder, as soon as it lifts off it steers with the cyclic and the rudder is to manage yaw.
In my opinion when a gyroplane near the ground is misaligned with the direction of travel it is poor rudder work and an invitation to trouble.
You are correct about center of pressure. In the early days many tried out body work without increasing the area behind the center of gravity with predictable results.
In my opinion it is important that a gyroplane weathervanes into the wind.
For a low time gyroplane pilot flying with a large crosswind component or gusting wind may be hazardous.
I feel it is important to build up your wind limits slowly.
All the bravado about flying a gyroplane in big winds seems to fade when there are big winds.
It is one of the things I am required to teach.
When on the ground a gyroplane steers with the rudder, as soon as it lifts off it steers with the cyclic and the rudder is to manage yaw.
In my opinion when a gyroplane near the ground is misaligned with the direction of travel it is poor rudder work and an invitation to trouble.
You are correct about center of pressure. In the early days many tried out body work without increasing the area behind the center of gravity with predictable results.
In my opinion it is important that a gyroplane weathervanes into the wind.
For a low time gyroplane pilot flying with a large crosswind component or gusting wind may be hazardous.
I feel it is important to build up your wind limits slowly.
All the bravado about flying a gyroplane in big winds seems to fade when there are big winds.
curtisscholl
Gold Supporter
Yep...I get it..And the Converse video to me shows exactly the low rotor rpm before the takeoff run, short field, low airspeed high angle..and fail..
curtisscholl
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Vance....
I have been reminded about Torque Roll in a video I have been reviewing as part of a training exercise.
In the first video, the autogyro that turned turtle, I cannot tell which way the prop is turning so I am not sure about the influence of the prop/engine combination. The rudder is small, and at this slow speed, even with propwash over it, as PW_Plack stated, may not have had sufficient authority.
Torque would roll an aircraft if one is not anticipating it. The P-51 exhibited the desire to roll on takeoff because of the powerful Merlin engine,,and aileron had been applied right as the mains were off the runway or slightly before. SO torque roll would also have to be compensated for by the cyclic, not the rudder would it not?
I have seen other videos with similar characteristics in the mix before the actual crash, so a number of things, including torque roll would be involved on a slowly moving behind the curve fail.
Curtis Scholl
I have been reminded about Torque Roll in a video I have been reviewing as part of a training exercise.
In the first video, the autogyro that turned turtle, I cannot tell which way the prop is turning so I am not sure about the influence of the prop/engine combination. The rudder is small, and at this slow speed, even with propwash over it, as PW_Plack stated, may not have had sufficient authority.
Torque would roll an aircraft if one is not anticipating it. The P-51 exhibited the desire to roll on takeoff because of the powerful Merlin engine,,and aileron had been applied right as the mains were off the runway or slightly before. SO torque roll would also have to be compensated for by the cyclic, not the rudder would it not?
I have seen other videos with similar characteristics in the mix before the actual crash, so a number of things, including torque roll would be involved on a slowly moving behind the curve fail.
Curtis Scholl
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On the ground she steers with the rudder, in the air she steers with the cyclic and rudder manages yaw.
On the takeoff roll I stay on the centerline with the rudder till she lifts off.
Some gyroplanes require a lot of pedal to keep her straight under full power.
In my opinion this has more to do with rudder configuration and placement than torque roll.
I have anticipated the effect of any cross wind component and if I have guessed correctly she will lift off without cyclic correction.
Once she lifts off I keep her over the centerline with the cyclic and aligned with the direction of travel using the rudder until I am well clear of the runway.
I have yet to have torque roll become a problem in any gyroplane I have flown.
Worst case one main lifts off before the other.
There have been torque roll accidents and I feel it is in combination with other piloting errors.
In a severe blade sailing event (too much indicated air speed for the rotor rpm) she will roll to the retreating blade side unrelated to torque roll. The retreating blade is the first to stall.
On the takeoff roll I stay on the centerline with the rudder till she lifts off.
Some gyroplanes require a lot of pedal to keep her straight under full power.
In my opinion this has more to do with rudder configuration and placement than torque roll.
I have anticipated the effect of any cross wind component and if I have guessed correctly she will lift off without cyclic correction.
Once she lifts off I keep her over the centerline with the cyclic and aligned with the direction of travel using the rudder until I am well clear of the runway.
I have yet to have torque roll become a problem in any gyroplane I have flown.
Worst case one main lifts off before the other.
There have been torque roll accidents and I feel it is in combination with other piloting errors.
In a severe blade sailing event (too much indicated air speed for the rotor rpm) she will roll to the retreating blade side unrelated to torque roll. The retreating blade is the first to stall.
curtisscholl
Gold Supporter
Vance:
"In a severe blade sailing event (too much indicated air speed for the rotor rpm) she will roll to the retreating blade side unrelated to torque roll. The retreating blade is the first to stall. "
That makes perfect sense.
And what you state about rudder and placement does too.
Thanks, I think I have beaten this particular horse enough, Much obliged.
"In a severe blade sailing event (too much indicated air speed for the rotor rpm) she will roll to the retreating blade side unrelated to torque roll. The retreating blade is the first to stall. "
That makes perfect sense.
And what you state about rudder and placement does too.
Thanks, I think I have beaten this particular horse enough, Much obliged.
- Joined
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You have good questions Curtis backed up by observation.
That makes it easier to answer the questions.
I look forward to spending some time with you at the PRA Convention in Mentone.
Having aircraft to point at will allow for more theoretical concepts to be demonstrated.
That makes it easier to answer the questions.
I look forward to spending some time with you at the PRA Convention in Mentone.
Having aircraft to point at will allow for more theoretical concepts to be demonstrated.
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