Question about CHT Vs EGT gauge.

CPL22

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Can anyone explain to me why gyroplanes pilots usually use both of them? In my "newbie" opinion, both temperature sensors allow pilots to know the "same" information in general terms. I´ve never seen that combination in traditional planes such as Piper Senecas, Arrows, etc..

Thanks.
 
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I suspect you've just not noticed that both gauges are installed in a lot of --maybe most --airplanes. They measure two entirely different things, and are used for two different purposes.

Exhaust Gas Temperature gauges measure the temperature of the exhaust gas, usually with a probe located just outside the combustion chamber in the exhaust stack. If an engine is running with a fuel mixture that consumes all the fuel and all the oxygen in the charge, it is said to be "stoichiometric," and the temperature of the exhaust gas will be at its hottest value. If we either enrichen or lean from that point, the exhaust gas gets cooler. Air cooled engines, in particular, use excess fuel to cool the engine down. If we put in too much fuel, the unburned fuel evaporates and cools the engine in the same way that your skin cools if it is wet and air blows across it. Above some power setting, usually 75 to 80 percent, there isn't enough fin area on the cylinders to keep the engine cool, and the excess fuel is the only thing that keeps the engine from overheating and being damaged. During takeoff and climb, we operate with an intentionally rich mixture for this purpose, but once we reduce to cruise power, we can lean the mixture to save fuel. Most airplane engines cruise at 50 to 100 degrees Celcius on the rich side of peak, though you should check your own engine to see what is permitted. This is done, operationally, by first reducing power to a power setting where leaning is permitted, usually below 75%, then slowly pulling the mixture control back (leaning) until the EGT reaches its maximum value and starts to fall off. The mixture is then enrichened so that the EGT cools 50 to 100 degrees below peak. At very low power settings, usually below 50 percent power, you can run at peak. Some special applications can run on the "lean side of peak," but most engines would be damaged by doing that. The EGT allows accurate leaning, though there are other, less precise ways to doing it.

The Cylinder Head Temperature gauge, on the other hand, measures the temperature of the metal of the combustion chamber, usually using a probe that either screws into the cylinder head, or fits under a spark plug. Many things influence CHT, such as power setting, fuel mixture, airflow, etc., but it is relatively slow to change, compared to EGT, and would never respond quickly enough to be used to lean the mixture. It is more of a general condition indicator. It is calibrated to give the actual temperature of the metal, where EGT only gives an indication of how much the temperature has varied away from the peak temperature.

Sorry about the long explanation. When someone asks me what time it is, I tend to tell them how to build a clock.

Dr. Rob
 
EGT gives you an indication of mixture ratio and internal cylinder temperature, CHT monitors the efficiency of the cooling system to remove wasted heat from the engine.
 
On a two stroke the EGT gauge will give you an indication of your carburettor jetting throughout the RPM range. You dont want to go too lean on the mixture because its the fuel is lubricating everything and the high temps will hole a piston. too rich and the engine wont run right and will tend to foul plugs and rings.
A CHT Gauge IMHO will tell you about an overheating event after the damage is done
Paddy
 
I suspect you've just not noticed that both gauges are installed in a lot of --maybe most --airplanes. They measure two entirely different things, and are used for two different purposes.

Thanks for your replies, I have now a clear idea about it, however, I don´t agree with you in one thing, the first one. I would say that both gauges are not installed in most airplanes (it´s my personal experience, at least, in my country). In adition, I did a random search in "airliners.org" and I didn´t see any Cherokee with both gauges after loads of pics. Maybe it´s just because in USA aeronautical stuff is cheaper, I don´t really know it. Me and my colleagues used to use just one gauge for all purporses. I know I know, each one measures different things, nevertheless, when it comes to saving up some money, you can do a good job just interpreting EGT and oil TEMP/PRESS gauges, even without EGT g., just using tachometer to manage the mixture.
 
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Id love to know how to judge 50 degrees rich of peak with a tach..
Yep, You dont see many CHT gauges in certified aircraft. We put an egt gauge in our cessna 120, but we dont really mess with the mixture as we rarely fly above 2500ft.
 
CPL22 the EGT is THE most important gauge on a 2 stroke, on a 4 stroke it is an option.
On an air cooled 2 stroke the cht also is important, but by the time you mixture goes lean and you see the cht rise the engine will have already gone quiet. During a low power decent you can watch the cht to avoid shock cooling the engine.
A tachometer will not do Jack to control mixture on a 2 stroke.
Prop pitch can make a huge difference in temps also. reducing pitch will raise EGT and lower CHT. increasing pitch will lower EGT and raise CHT.
CHT and EGT are two totally different animals.
On a liquid cooled 2 stroke a water temp gauge can be used instead of a CHT.

If you end up using a 4 stroke engine, your monitoring gauges will be different than a 2 stroke.
 
Scot., that explanation is what I wanted to read! Thanks. I´ve never been pushed by a 2 stroke. Anyway, I don´t really understand why on a 2 strokes (fixed pitch propeller) we can´t use the tachometer to adjust the mixture.. What´s the difference, Scot?

Id love to know how to judge 50 degrees rich of peak with a tach..
Yep, You dont see many CHT gauges in certified aircraft. We put an egt gauge in our cessna 120, but we dont really mess with the mixture as we rarely fly above 2500ft.

(Cessna model 152 flight manual, fixed pitch propeller)

"... to achieve the recommended lean mixture fuel consumption figures shown in Section 5, the mixture should be leaned until engine RPM peaks and drops 25-50 RPM. At lower powers........"

Thanks.
 
The Carb we have on the C85-12 in the Cessna 120 is a different beast than the 150 with the 0-200. The mixture control only works on the last 75% of the engine rpm. you cant cut the engine by pulling the mixture, youve to use the key. The engine runs like a well oiled sewing machine, running it on unleaded, so we dont mess with anything.
 
Interesting Paddy. I just want to put on record it´s possible to adjust the mixture just with the tachometer as the manufacter (Cessna) says. Now, I would like to understand why on 2 stroke we can´t :typing:.
 
It's way too easy to cause permanent damage to a 2 stroke engine that way.
 
On most two strokes the fuel air mixture is adjusted by the changing the Idler jet, the jet needle and the main jet to achieve the required mixture throughout the RPM range


On a two stroke there is no real way to adjust the mixture inflight but this kit does it, automatically. Ive no experience with it though


http://www.greenskyadventures.com/bing/hacdetails.htm

Paddy
 
Curious device Paddy. I´ve just found an interesting web --> http://www.ultralightnews.com/enginemaintenance/gauge.html



Cylinder Head Temperature Gauges

Experience has shown that CHT's on two stroke engines are a waste of money. By the time a gauge reacts through the head to tell you, you have a problem your prop has stopped and you already know it.

On a liquid cooled engine the reading is effected by the water circulating through the cylinder head, lowering the readings. They will however tell you when you are loosing coolant, or are low on coolant since the CHT temps are higher when the coolant is low. In most cases pilots will find that they will smell the coolant before they notice it on the gauge.

If you are going to install a CHT you still require one for each cylinder, don't "COIL" the leads, and it is necessary to remove the spark plug ring when installing the CHT sending unit. Failure to remove the spark plug ring may result in leakage due to improper sealing. It can also result in damage to the threads of the spark plug hole.

With the spark plug sealing ring in place and the addition of the CHT coupler threads in lower part of the cylinder head are exposed and will carbon up. This will result in damage to the threads if a new plug is put in place without a CHT coupler, since the spark plug can now go all the way down into these carboned threads, usually breaking them off and depositing them into the cylinder.
For more information click here.
 
I completely disagree

I completely disagree

CHT's on two stroke engines are a waste of money. By the time a gauge reacts

you need both. Either one without the other is still only 1/2 the info you need to tune your motor and assure proper cooling in various flight conditions.
 
Greg, a CHT gauge is useless on a liquid cooled engine, because the water removes the heat, CHT is mandatory on an air cooled.

I think the quote was refering to using a CHT instead of an EGT to monitor engine temp.

And on a turbine, the TIT (Turbine Inlet Temp) is the one you need to pay attention to.
 
Correction please....

Correction please....

Gauges are NO OPTION. 2 Stroke or 4 Stroke !!!

The only thing you will have with a 4 stroke set up wrong is a few hours more run time, Eventually you burn valves, torch holes in pistons, generally make a mess of a nice engine when only a few more adjustments (Jetting or Timing) were needed.

If you are flying ANY AIRCRAFT. It is good to know what your temps are, and I mean ALL TEMPS. You might get lucky, you might not, Where do you care to find out ?

Jonathan



CPL22 the EGT is THE most important gauge on a 2 stroke, on a 4 stroke it is an option.
On an air cooled 2 stroke the cht also is important, but by the time you mixture goes lean and you see the cht rise the engine will have already gone quiet. During a low power decent you can watch the cht to avoid shock cooling the engine.
A tachometer will not do Jack to control mixture on a 2 stroke.
Prop pitch can make a huge difference in temps also. reducing pitch will raise EGT and lower CHT. increasing pitch will lower EGT and raise CHT.
CHT and EGT are two totally different animals.
On a liquid cooled 2 stroke a water temp gauge can be used instead of a CHT.

If you end up using a 4 stroke engine, your monitoring gauges will be different than a 2 stroke.
 
Jonathan I do tend to want to know what is going on, rather than guess.
Most certified aircraft do not use an EGT, but they have "other" parameters to monitor, such as manifold vacuum etc.

I still say the CHT is optional on a liquid cooled 2 stroke, as long as you have a temp gauge on the coolant. :)
 
agreed

agreed

I agree about the cht.

Order of importance. EGT being the most important.

EGT
Oil Pressure
Fuel Pressure *
Coolant Temp **
Oil Temp
CHT

* Dual pumps might not want or need it. For initial tuning it is required in my professional opinion.

**If water cooled, if aircooled then CHT in its place.

Jonathan
 
I'll bet most of the guys here with turbo diesel trucks have an EGT or pyrometer gauge on the truck.

Jonathan, are you going to be at Bensen days?
 
Gotta have both EGT & CHT

Gotta have both EGT & CHT

It wasn't until I installed a full engine monitor in my Cessna that I would make some of the more remote, longer flights up in the Arctic. Now, I can't understand how I flew without that information. It's really comforting to see all the critical parameters being monitored, and knowing that it's an early-warning system if something begins to go wrong.

I have both CHT & EGT in both of my gyros too (Rotax 4-strokes).
 
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