xxxxx

[Eric S]

Previously I owned a RAF with the Sparrowhawk mod... It was very light stick force to fly.

Rob,

Which rotor head and rotor blades did you have on your RAF/Sparrowhawk? I would love to have very light stick forces on mine.

Eric

 

[ventana7]

Wow Eric it was 15 years ago and I bought the machine from someone else. I assume they were the RAF stock, but don’t know for sure.

Rob

 

[Eric S]

Ah yes, RAF stock. Mine had RAF head and rotors when I bought it and it had a much lighter stick, but they were the old fiberglass blades that many had trouble with cracks and the old hub bar with limited life so I got rid of them. I upgraded to Sport Copter equipment since I also have a Vortex single place with a VERY light stick. The RAF/Sparrowhawk is heavier and has less stick travel than the Vortex, so the pitch/roll stick forces are much heavier.

I'll go whine about it somewhere else now and stop trampling on this thread.
Thanks.

 

[Kolibri]

Was it worth it to entirely redesign your gyro so your trim system which is supposed to zero out stick force is a probably useless emergency control system?

Rob, it's ironic that you would question this.
When something in your RAF's control system failed on you, causing a spiral descent and crash,
would you have then wished for an emergency control system?

Regards,
Kolibri

 

[ventana7]

Kolibri,
I know you like to argue here on the forum, and that you think your work not complete til everyone agrees with you. I once had a sailing friend who thought there were two ways to do things on a sailboat; his way and the wrong way.

There is good reason we have Ford trucks and Chevy trucks. Cessna trainers and Piper trainers etc. Not everyone needs to agree.

In answer to you question: yes when my cyclic control failed I would have loved to have had an alternate method to control my rotor. The RAF had those little trim wheels, but I don’t remember where they were rigged to. Whatever system I had, do I think I could have mastered flying my gyro by the trim system and landing it via the trim control in 30 seconds under duress- I find that a stretch.

Of all the pilots here on the forum, I am probably the least qualified to comment on engineering- I know nothing about it and have never built a gyro. My opinion on engineering subjects is worthless.

Jm asked about simple trim systems so I told him about the system on the Xenon.
As to what’s best, I’m not going to promote anything as I don’t know what’s best.

I’ve flown over 15,000 miles of gyro cross country and have lots of opinions on that so if you want we can argue about that

Rob

 

[Kolibri]

I know you like to argue here on the forum, and that you think your work not complete til everyone agrees with you.

Rob, I like safety, quality engineering, and truth to prevail. Some people call that "arguing".
I'm actually caring less and less what others fly. The Dunning-Kruger crowd can take their own risks.

. . . do I think I could have mastered flying my gyro by the trim system and landing it via the trim control in 30 seconds under duress- I find that a stretch.

You may have at least been able to stabilize your RAF, giving you time to set up for a landing. That's all I meant.

Finally, the weight of pneumatic trim needn't require an IO-360 SC2 size of gyro.
Even the smaller M912 and 2-seat M2 have pneumatic trim, as does my RAF with SC upgrade.
The "Chinaman hat" is an intuitive control, and I think would be beneficially used in an emergency.

Regards,
Kolibri

 

[Kevin_Richey]

Jim: Might we see your entire gyroplane?

 

[Vance]

All the linear actuators I have worked with would stay put when power was removed.

They also had built in limit switches.

I recently broke a trim spring on takeoff near maximum takeoff weight and it was a nonevent.

In my opinion if you can’t fly without a trim spring something is not right.

When I road raced motorcycles I worked to limit the number of wires because it would be unlikely I could recover from an electrical failure.

I had a points wire break inside the insulation at an important race to me (Isle of Mann 1981) and caught fire and finished badly because of it (38th in the Classic}.

 

[Vance]

I only mention flying without trim spring because one particularly ignorant person has suggested all sorts of crazy things about trim, what it does and how important it is.

Nothing to do with you jm-urbani.

You English works fine for me.

 

[ventana7]

no pb Vance, I think that any aircraft should be flayble without any trim of course,

Jm. I remembered I have a you tube video showing the Xenon trim. It’s here.

At about 20 secs you see me take my hand off the stick and the nose drops a bit. At about 30 secs you see me adjust the trim string, then at 40 secs I make a finer adjustment, then I make a few steep turns.

I also saw a video of another Xenon with roll trim

Rob

 

[ventana7]

Rob, it's ironic that you would question this.
When something in your RAF's control system failed on you, causing a spiral descent and crash,
would you have then wished for an emergency control system?

Regards,
Kolibri

Kolibri you have me intrigued as to the viability of your suggestion.

Why don’t you mount a GoPro inside your gyro, climb to a very safe altitude and video yourself making some turns and descents, and a flare using only your trim system. It will be interesting to see the viability of your suggestion.

Rob

 

[Kolibri]

Rob, while I'm not sure if you're asking sincerely or with snark,
I have briefly experimented with flying at safe altitude with trim alone.
(With a functioning cyclic, it is very difficult to not use it.)
Trim input lag was tricky, but a good pilot could probably deal with it.

But, what's your point, really? That flying by trim is so difficult that it's not worth considering?
However difficult it may be, it certainly beats the alternative of a completely dead stick.
I'll stand pat with my "You may have at least been able to stabilize your RAF, giving you time to set up for a landing."

 

[ventana7]

Rob, while I'm not sure if you're asking sincerely or with snark,
I have briefly experimented with flying at safe altitude with trim alone.
(With a functioning cyclic, it is very difficult to not use it.)
Trim input lag was tricky, but a good pilot could probably deal with it.

But, what's your point, really? That flying by trim is so difficult that it's not worth considering?
However difficult it may be, it certainly beats the alternative of a completely dead stick.
I'll stand pat with my "You may have at least been able to stabilize your RAF, giving you time to set up for a landing."

You quite vociferously made the point that trim should go to the rotor head and said it could be used as a n emergency flight control. Being a non engineer as I stated and an open minded person I considered your words.

So I would like to see if it really makes sense and could work adequately in an emergency. It is really no different than the ballistic parachute thread that has been running, many of us are wanting to know or see demonstrated how it would work.

I did not intend my original post or this one as snark, but on second thought it is sort of like the BRS discussion. If it works, show us.

Rob

 

[JETLAG03]

Hi Folks.Very interested in this thread having just completed my first flight with my Deluc Pipster, a very different beast from the MTO in which I trained. I think she needs a form of roll trim, I have to put in left force to keep her in a straight line. The MTO has a trim that I found great in flight for setting the speed for level flight and would be interested in the idea of using the suggested by @Vance that may, or may not have a benefit of emergency control in the event of failure. I am reasonably mechanically minded but would like to see some pictures of mounting systems and techniques etc, fit for dummies like me. Thanks in advance.

phil (de fer)

 

[Vance]

Hi Folks.Very interested in this thread having just completed my first flight with my Deluc Pipster, a very different beast from the MTO in which I trained. I think she needs a form of roll trim, I have to put in left force to keep her in a straight line. The MTO has a trim that I found great in flight for setting the speed for level flight and would be interested in the idea of using the suggested by @Vance that may, or may not have a benefit of emergency control in the event of failure. I am reasonably mechanically minded but would like to see some pictures of mounting systems and techniques etc, fit for dummies like me. Thanks in advance.

phil (de fer)

Good morning Phil, I could not find a Deluc Pipster on the internet.

Is it a side by side?

It is my observation most gyroplanes with short vertical stabilizers require trim on the rudder.

If you are flying coordinated (yaw string straight back) in a single place or tandem and it requires left stick to fly straight in my opinion there is something wrong with the way she is rigged.

Most of the side by side gyroplanes I have flown have roll trim adjustment to compensate for the different loads of solo vs. two up.

It is usually a simple affair that applies spring or pneumatic pressure to the rotor head.

Don't drill holes in your mast to mount the trim mechanism as it weakens the mast.

Use some sort of clamp.

 

[JETLAG03]

Hi @Vance the original designer was a Frenchman named DELUC, it is a tandem.

 

[Vance]

In my opinion a tandem that is rigged correctly should not need lateral trim in coordinated flight (yaw string straight back).

 

[JETLAG03]

Hopefully, my next flight I will be much more relaxed and be able to verify things better. I am however certain that she was in coordinated as I took note of the string and made a clear decision to take my feet of the pedals as suggested by jm-urbani in one of his earlier postings. Fair to say that my first flight with her was nerve wracking, took off at one airfield with zero wind to arrive at my home base 45 minutes later with 35-45 kph crosswinds (not forecast). If correct that she turns right please explain what I should be looking at to confirm "rigged correctly" cheers phil

 

[Greg Vos]

I have no dog in the race regarding flying a gyro to landing using only trim controls to set up for landing, as one gets close to touch down inputs become a bit more needed and I’m unsure if simple slower pitch / roll inputs will keep the pilot ahead of the aircraft in this example.
That said I’m sure having a second control system does add comfort.

right ...onto the pitch actuator, I will post pics of one I’m building for almost nothing using a 12v motor and threaded bar. to use in a xenon I have just completed a complete rebuild on.
its not a work of art but it’s simply a 12 volt DC motor turning a threaded bar (think worm drive) and it pulls a cable connected to a spring that is connected to the fork at the rear ..... I like to keep things simple. Adding micro switches to limit travel and to give a signal to a led to reflect travel max / min is also very simple.

 

[Sv.grainne]

There is a Company, Windy Nation, that sells a wide variety of linear actuators. TangoGyro uses an actuator that looks the same for the pitch trim on the Tango2. Think the travel is 6 or 8". Windy Nation has a website and appears that Amazon sells most all of the various models.

Bobby