dimwit
Newbie
Wow Joel. I leave for nine days and come back and see that you've made alot of progress. Good job. The best to ya.
Joel's Gyrobee build thread..
- Thread starter teatimeguy
- Start date
teatimeguy
Newbie
im not sure if it was you or someone else who said that my wheels arent made for such high speeds but obviously a wheelbarrow wheel is made to go about 3 miles an hour and it works just fine on a gyro right? so what each part and piece is made for doesn't always mean thats it limits. yes the front end "design" isnt popular but i have done my research on the wheels and other components as many people dont seem to think i have. Once im at the point of testing it with the engine, taxiing around and such, then i will see the pros/cons to my design or what/how to change this or that. I am not just going throw the engine on and take-off. But once i get it to handle perfect at all speeds on the ground, only then would i actually fly
teatimeguy
Newbie
ultracruiser41
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And after proper instruction!....Right?
GYRO J
Member
You are right about wheelbarrow wheels made to go 3mph The bearings have to be changed out for better high speed bearings I have been using them for years they are very strong and the weight isnt that much
Jazzenjohn
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Joel, how did you attach the Tuffwheels to the axle tube for the main gear?
teatimeguy
Newbie
I haven't yet, its just temporary right now but its gonna be a fancy machined part
teatimeguy
Newbie
I haven't yet, its just temporary right now but its gonna be a fancy machined part
robjustin
wannabe builder/pilot
Hey, all. I am curious to know why exactly It's a bad idea to weld aluminum gyro frames. I have my hunches, but am a complete layman in this area.
I went to the FAA site suggested and found the AC, but only dug up their suggestions for correct welding of aluminum. I couldn't find anything that specifically said not to.
I do know the possibly catastrophic differences between a weak weld, or one that is corrosion-prone as compared to a correct weld...Are you suggesting that it's just not worth taking chances since only very experienced aluminum fabricators can give anything close to confidence on every weld?
Maybe the reason is that no weld can ever be as vibration-proof as a bolt attachment--especially considering that bolts/nuts can be readily checked even at every pre-flight if so desired.
I'm sure this is a complete newbie question to most of you guys, but that may make it worth documenting (again) here.
I don't weld, so I'm really happy to see so many 'bolt-together' kits available.
In the interest of weight-savings, however, aren't all of us newbies forever going to be tempted?
Happy flying! Spring is in the air even up here in Bozeman!
I went to the FAA site suggested and found the AC, but only dug up their suggestions for correct welding of aluminum. I couldn't find anything that specifically said not to.
I do know the possibly catastrophic differences between a weak weld, or one that is corrosion-prone as compared to a correct weld...Are you suggesting that it's just not worth taking chances since only very experienced aluminum fabricators can give anything close to confidence on every weld?
Maybe the reason is that no weld can ever be as vibration-proof as a bolt attachment--especially considering that bolts/nuts can be readily checked even at every pre-flight if so desired.
I'm sure this is a complete newbie question to most of you guys, but that may make it worth documenting (again) here.
I don't weld, so I'm really happy to see so many 'bolt-together' kits available.
In the interest of weight-savings, however, aren't all of us newbies forever going to be tempted?
Happy flying! Spring is in the air even up here in Bozeman!
robjustin
wannabe builder/pilot
Oh, Duh. Disregard my recent post. I didn't realize how many pages were on this thread! Thanks for all the helpful discussion, guys.
xpwarrior
Junior Member
An I the only one that has a set of Gyrobee plans where it says to weld the pieces of the fuel tank mount together?:twitch: I bolted the cross pieces to the horizontal pieces and then welded the side pieces on. My plans state it can all be welded together then bolted to the mast.
Jason
Jason
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Brian Jackson
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Hello, Joel, and all at Rotary Forum.
I'm sorry for being out of the loop here for close to a year... divorce, moved... but never been happier! Long story, but may catch y'all up on a later post. For now I just wanted to mention something that is glaringly obvious that I'm surprised nobody has brought up about Joel's build yet.
Joel,
I, too, am building a GyroBee. In previous posts you mentioned "simply" changing out the 1/4" wall square tubing for 1/8" wall tubing later on after your ship is built. What you don't seem to be taking into consideration is that doing this will require you to also rebuild your cluster plates, tank mount diagonals, noseblock plates, etc. The reason is simple.
Accepted building practices require the bolt holes to be located within a few thousandths of an inch of the tube's inside wall. By changing wall thicknesses, suddenly your hole locations of all mating plates and parts will be too far inward by the difference in wall thickness. Even if you only change the mast tubing you're still going to need new cluster plates to compensate for this. And since the tank mount diagonal braces share a common hole with the cluster plates, they must be replaced as well, otherwise your tank mount frame will not mount square to the frame. There are other mods involved too that I won't get into, but you get the idea.
Had you built it to plans you could have avoided this major rebuild later, as your assumption of "simply" swapping out tubing proves false.
Just my $.02US.
Brian Jackson
I'm sorry for being out of the loop here for close to a year... divorce, moved... but never been happier! Long story, but may catch y'all up on a later post. For now I just wanted to mention something that is glaringly obvious that I'm surprised nobody has brought up about Joel's build yet.
Joel,
I, too, am building a GyroBee. In previous posts you mentioned "simply" changing out the 1/4" wall square tubing for 1/8" wall tubing later on after your ship is built. What you don't seem to be taking into consideration is that doing this will require you to also rebuild your cluster plates, tank mount diagonals, noseblock plates, etc. The reason is simple.
Accepted building practices require the bolt holes to be located within a few thousandths of an inch of the tube's inside wall. By changing wall thicknesses, suddenly your hole locations of all mating plates and parts will be too far inward by the difference in wall thickness. Even if you only change the mast tubing you're still going to need new cluster plates to compensate for this. And since the tank mount diagonal braces share a common hole with the cluster plates, they must be replaced as well, otherwise your tank mount frame will not mount square to the frame. There are other mods involved too that I won't get into, but you get the idea.
Had you built it to plans you could have avoided this major rebuild later, as your assumption of "simply" swapping out tubing proves false.
Just my $.02US.
Brian Jackson
StanFoster
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Brian: Glad to hear from you again! Its great things are turning around for you..and hop right back in here where you belong.
Stan
Stan
Brian Jackson
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Thanks, Stan! Have enjoyed seeing your HeliCycle come together.
Joel, oops... my bad. It's your engine mount diagonals that will have to be replaced. The tank diags will be OK, but the forward cross-piece of the tank frame will just sit .125" farther aft from the mast as both bolts move aft in unison. Should be OK.
Joel, oops... my bad. It's your engine mount diagonals that will have to be replaced. The tank diags will be OK, but the forward cross-piece of the tank frame will just sit .125" farther aft from the mast as both bolts move aft in unison. Should be OK.
Jazzenjohn
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Welcome back Brian. He seems to want a thicker mast. If he were to change it out, I would expect he'd go to a 3/16th wall tube and the difference would be .25-.188 or .064 additional bolt to wall clearance.
NoWingsAttached
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I just read up to page 6 of this thread. Not sure what the thinking is on this front wheel design, but I can tell you one thing for sure that is a drawback: You drastically reduce turn radius of your vehicle with this design angle.
I do not like the way the entire shock resulting from front wheel hitting bumps etc is transferred to a weld that is on the opposite side of the frame that is supposed to be sustaining that shock. It is a backwards design, and more prone to failure than if the frame was designed properly. Although, who knows? It may never fail. It looks upside down. I would never do it.
I do not like the way the entire shock resulting from front wheel hitting bumps etc is transferred to a weld that is on the opposite side of the frame that is supposed to be sustaining that shock. It is a backwards design, and more prone to failure than if the frame was designed properly. Although, who knows? It may never fail. It looks upside down. I would never do it.
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dimwit
Newbie
Joel. I really do commend you on the progress that you are making and it's a admirable quality to be innovative. My hat is off to you.
But PLEASE listen to some of these guy's. They really are trying to help you. Knowbody wants to see you get hurt or even tear your machine up.
The front wheel assembly, you can look at it and see that it is not a structurally sound design regardless of how strong the weld is the part is just mild steel made in china under questionable standards. Please rethink this. But it does look like your doing a good job. I wish you the best.
But PLEASE listen to some of these guy's. They really are trying to help you. Knowbody wants to see you get hurt or even tear your machine up.
The front wheel assembly, you can look at it and see that it is not a structurally sound design regardless of how strong the weld is the part is just mild steel made in china under questionable standards. Please rethink this. But it does look like your doing a good job. I wish you the best.
NoWingsAttached
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Welded Aluminum
Welded Aluminum
Jason wrote:
I have a welded battery bracket on my Air Command. Understand this bracket is NOT under stress, NOT subjected to shock, NOT subjected to vibration, and is NOT a critical part to the airframe. It is ancillary, and the weight of the battery is carried by the supports UNDER the battery box, NOT born by the WELDS in any way, shape or form. THere is a HUGE difference between the way loads are carried on the fuel cell and battery boxes as compared to what this guy who is totally green is trying to do by welding his SUSPENSION to the airframe.
That being said, I have stressed 1/8" x 2" 6160 T6 aluminum frame cable pulling machines that I have manufactured within my own company, TIG welded in my own shop, up to 1200 lbs shear on the welds, and NEVER experienced fatigue or failure after pulling hundreds of miles of Fiber Optic Cable. But the machine frames were designed for the stresses to be spread out WAY differently than these gyros are.
I've often wondered about having a frame welded, but I realize from looking at the designs that we build that these frames are NOT conducive to welding. You would have to start from scratch to properly design a welded frame. It can be done, but not using a plan that is supposed to be bolted together.
That being said, anybody who knows nothing about metal fatigue, proper stress design, and least of all building flying machines is a sandwich short of a picnic if he thinks he can just jump into this build, change critical design features, and not suffer consequences.
Good luck dude. It appears to several of us you are doing a few things wrong. Maybe you've wasted a little bit of money with a few mistakes up to now, but your mistakes are going to get a LOT more costly when something breaks when you are operating your aircraft.
Welded Aluminum
Jason wrote:
I have a welded battery bracket on my Air Command. Understand this bracket is NOT under stress, NOT subjected to shock, NOT subjected to vibration, and is NOT a critical part to the airframe. It is ancillary, and the weight of the battery is carried by the supports UNDER the battery box, NOT born by the WELDS in any way, shape or form. THere is a HUGE difference between the way loads are carried on the fuel cell and battery boxes as compared to what this guy who is totally green is trying to do by welding his SUSPENSION to the airframe.
That being said, I have stressed 1/8" x 2" 6160 T6 aluminum frame cable pulling machines that I have manufactured within my own company, TIG welded in my own shop, up to 1200 lbs shear on the welds, and NEVER experienced fatigue or failure after pulling hundreds of miles of Fiber Optic Cable. But the machine frames were designed for the stresses to be spread out WAY differently than these gyros are.
I've often wondered about having a frame welded, but I realize from looking at the designs that we build that these frames are NOT conducive to welding. You would have to start from scratch to properly design a welded frame. It can be done, but not using a plan that is supposed to be bolted together.
That being said, anybody who knows nothing about metal fatigue, proper stress design, and least of all building flying machines is a sandwich short of a picnic if he thinks he can just jump into this build, change critical design features, and not suffer consequences.
Good luck dude. It appears to several of us you are doing a few things wrong. Maybe you've wasted a little bit of money with a few mistakes up to now, but your mistakes are going to get a LOT more costly when something breaks when you are operating your aircraft.
teatimeguy
Newbie
vacation
vacation
i'll be gone for at least 2 weeks or till the end of march so nothing will be getting done..
that sucks but just thought id let you all know
vacation
i'll be gone for at least 2 weeks or till the end of march so nothing will be getting done..
that sucks but just thought id let you all knowxpwarrior
Junior Member
I understand perfectly and I wouldn't use the welded on bike parts either but the first thing Joel mentioned welding was the fuel tank mount and he got jumped on about following the plans and not welding any aluminum. I was just pointing out that welding the tank mount is following the plans. I do lots of TIG welding myself and wouldn't use it for structural parts since welding changes the hardness of the aluminum. That's why I only welded the outer pieces of the tank mount on and bolted the rest.
