To hover or not to hover?

Stuff this, i cant go home now.

In fact with a gyro the slowest you can fly and stay level is about 35mph.
Mate, if your go'n to state facts, you gota get um rite.
Even my fat wasa will hold level less than 35mph, with a passenger.
The ferel will hold level with the ASI on 0. [ its obviously not 0, but its not far off it]
Every gyro has a min AS at WOT, max AS at WOT and an economical cruise speed sumwhere in between, and every machine will have different speeds.
You cant say "In fact with a gyro the slowest you can fly and stay level is about 35mph. ", coz thats like sayn EVERY gyro "In fact with a gyro the slowest you can fly and stay level is about 35mph. ", which is rong. Sum can go alot slower, sum will sink before that speed.

Point; if i held the ferel at WOT at 35mph, id be climbn at 1000 FPM. No way near sink.

Reverse flow it is where part of the rotor is going backwards and the forward airflow is so low that the air actually hits the trailing edge of the rotor. It is not dangerous but can give you terrible stick shake.
I am seriously hopen this is just a language barrier thing, coz to my SCG interpretation, thats rubbish.
 
birdy said:
Stuff this, i cant go home now.

Even my fat wasa will hold level less than 35mph, with a passenger.


Point; if i held the ferel at WOT at 35mph, id be climbn at 1000 FPM.


:bored::bored::bored::bored:
Click to expand...
 
birdy said:
Stuff this, i cant go home now.

[
Reverse flow it is where part of the rotor is going backwards and the forward airflow is so low that the air actually hits the trailing edge of the rotor. It is not dangerous but can give you terrible stick shake.
I am seriously hopen this is just a language barrier thing, coz to my SCG interpretation, thats rubbish.
Click to expand...


Birdy,
What is your theory regarding reverse flow? Please come with facts instead.
I am far from expert I must say and there are greater minds who can give a far better explanations.
Reverse flow Birdy, occurs at the root of the RETREATING blade where the rotational speed is slowest. In high forward airspeeds, it is possible that the FORWARD airspeed is actually greater than the rearward ROTATIONAL speed.
In this circumstance the airflow can and will actually hit the TRAILING edge of the rotor.
It is perfectly OK to disagree as long as you don't become disagreable..

Giorgos
 
communication issues

communication issues

scandtours said:
Below 45mph
To speed up, reduce power allow the nose to lower.
* * *
At about 45 50mph the aircraft is at its most aerodynamic ie the drag of the aircraft is at its minimum. Above this speed, you need to apply more power to make it go faster (which is obvious) however below this speed you also need to apply more power to stay level (this is not obvious).
Click to expand...

I'm trying to understand you here, and these two statements don't look consistent to me. It may be that I'm just not reading your intent.

I'm not arguing, just asking.

I think I can figure out what you mean if you will tell me why you suggest reducing power to accelerate. Is this a thrust line / stability issue, or a drag polar / power required comment?

If the latter, why not keep power applied while adjusting pitch to accelerate?
 
Last edited:
:bored:
scandtours said:
The question above concerned relationship between power and pitch and the correct change of sequence at dif airspeeds.
(If your instructor teaches you something dif, please follow his advices)
Click to expand...
Damn i hope i am not going to regret this, but mate you need to get some of the following sorted out

scandtours said:
This is true for speeds above 45mph. It is different below 45mph.
Click to expand...
How is this so? i fail to understand your thinking for this

scandtours said:
Below 45mph
To speed up, reduce power allow the nose to lower.
Click to expand...

What a load of crap, if you are flying (as you state below), below 45mph, you are behind the power curve, and would be sinking if that was right, how ever since the 45 mph thing is crap for alot of gyros i have seen, why the hell would you lower the power, and think the nose would drop, BECAUSE if you are on full power you have got the stick back in your guts, and if you cut the power all that is going to happen is you are going to start sinking vertically or maybe even backwards.

scandtours said:
When you fly below 45mph, for most gyros, you are flying "behind the power curve".
In fact with a gyro the slowest you can fly and stay level is about 35mph. At this point you will need to be at FULL power. This is exactly the same as a helicopter which is at maximum power in the hover.
birdy said:
Stuff this, i cant go home now.

Even my fat wasa will hold level less than 35mph, with a passenger.


Point; if i held the ferel at WOT at 35mph, id be climbn at 1000 FPM.

:bored::bored::bored::bored:
Click to expand...
If you think he is talking crap with this comment then you must be used to flying the biggest slug of a gyro every built in the last 30 years since they started using reduction drives, if so i must be full of crap too, because i got 3 machines in my hangar that can all fly with similar performances.

scandtours said:
Unfortunately this is one of these topics that could consume a complete
chapter or a whole book to get the correct level of detail.
Click to expand...

Its looking that way


scandtours said:
In most cases the correct recovery from unusual attitudes is:
REDUCE THE POWER
CENTRE THE STICK
WAIT FOR THE GYRO TO SETTLE and act accordingly.
Giorgos
Click to expand...

Thats another might dangerous group of statements, there is 100 different viariables that might or might not be happening at this time, depending of how far into the reverse airflow you got that can be completely wrong from what i understand.
Click to expand...
 
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So far, I see an elementary topic being treated as if were a complex and dangerous flight envelope.

Cryptic questions. Slow and spaced answers.

ONLY one correct way to fly the envelpoe. (That always draws a flag.)

Now this reverse airflow. The only rotor reverse airflow I'd worry about, is when it start's comming from the top down.

What is the point, anyway?

Phil.
 
Fl90 said:
Now this reverse airflow. The only rotor reverse airflow I'd worry about, is when it start's comming from the top down.

What is the point, anyway?

Phil.
Click to expand...

Phil,
You raise a good question, maybe he is talking of something else to what i was thinking he meant.

Scan, what do you mean by when YOU talk of reverse air flow????
 
I am far from expert I must say and there are greater minds who can give a far better explanations.
We are two in the same then.

Reverse flow Birdy, occurs at the root of the RETREATING blade where the rotational speed is slowest. In high forward airspeeds, it is possible that the FORWARD airspeed is actually greater than the rearward ROTATIONAL speed.
I know, thats logical.

It is perfectly OK to disagree as long as you don't become disagreable..
I agree. :)

What is your theory regarding reverse flow? Please come with facts instead.
Wot you stated above is all correct, but, and its a big BUT, your sayn that the 'rotating stick' you feel wen at min AS and high power is caused by sumthn that only happens at speed. Your contradicting yourself mate.
There is no reversed airflow over any portion of the disc wen at min AS.

As i stated in the start, the 'rotating stick' is caused by low rrpm, not reversed airflow.
 
Reverse flow it is where part of the rotor is going backwards and the forward airflow is so low that the air actually hits the trailing edge of the rotor. It is not dangerous but can give you terrible stick shake.
Click to expand...
So if you are backsliding at 10 knots, the blades are going at 300rpm, blade speed around 300knots? How would the airflow hit the trailing edge?
This is impossible, you'de be dropping like a rock by then.
 
birdy said:
I am far from expert I must say and there are greater minds who can give a far better explanations.
Wot you stated above is all correct, but, and its a big BUT, your sayn that the 'rotating stick' you feel wen at min AS and high power is caused by sumthn that only happens at speed. Your contradicting yourself mate.
There is no reversed airflow over any portion of the disc wen at min AS.

As i stated in the start, the 'rotating stick' is caused by low rrpm, not reversed airflow.
Click to expand...

I was not ref to reverse airflow only, see my post no.30. There are few more worries where somebody could enter or recover from those maneuvers wrongly, bringing the blades to even lower rpm. OF COURSE is the low rrpm that transfer stick shakes. Who doubts? That was the warning from the beginning to aviod.
I fully agree with C Beaty answer post 20 and D. Riley post 21.
 
I was not ref to reverse airflow only
You were.

see my post no.30
You never mentioned reversed airflow in post 30.

Stop dodging the facts.
You post No. 27;
There is a moment that, while reducing airspeed and entering a zero ground speed maneuver the stick could begin to move in a circular manner.This is caused by reverse flow across the blades as you are likely to be slipping backwards. The remedy of course is to reduce back pressure on the stick.
Many pilots encounter this as an unpleasant situation but not excessively hazardous. If this happens first time and you dodnt know about it you can get in panic.
I will continue later with more.

You are sayn here ;There is a moment that, while reducing airspeed and entering a zero ground speed maneuver the stick could begin to move in a circular manner.
That wen you REDUCE AS, you will experiance stick rotations. [ true BTW]

Then in the same post you say;
This is caused by reverse flow across the blades as you are likely to be slipping backwards
IOW, your sayn a highspeed symtom is causen a lowspeed reaction.

OF COURSE is the low rrpm that transfer stick shakes.
You definatly werent maken it obvious to start, you said it was reversed airflow causen the stick to rotate at low ASs, not low rrpm. BIG difference.

GET IT RITE.


Im not sure wot your aim is with this thread, but im assuming its sposed to be educational.
Thats a honerable thought, but mate, if your go'n to go lecturing ona world forum bout how to fly, then you better be sure to cover all bases, coz theres alot that can be missed just through missinterpretation.
 
I stand for all my statements above. Maybe I cannot explain it better.

But again, I repeat from ANY UNUSUAL ATTITUDE, THE ANSWER IS ALWAYS THE SAME.

REDUCE THE POWER
CENTRE THE STICK
WAIT FOR THE GYRO TO SETTLE

In my 42 years of flying gyros Ive never found this is not correct.
Giorgos
 
birdy said:
I was not ref to reverse airflow only
You were.

see my post no.30
You never mentioned reversed airflow in post 30.

Why should I? It is very clearly explain in post 30 that this is another dangerous situation where rrpm can slow down. There are even more
that somebody has to to know/be careful. I took one at a time, this is my way.
Click to expand...
 
The vital thing to do is, as in most cases, to reduce power and never push the stick forward quickly.
There is only one time where we can recover from a hover with power and can be discussed later.
Giorgos



I do understand this. That a pilot is reloading the rotors by reducing the power. But then you will need to increase the power after the rotor speed comes back up. All of this takes just seconds and hopefully one doesn't lost much altitude before you are flying on the rotors again.

I think Birdy was giving a method to do this by giving a little side cyclic. I know I have been doing a little slow flight here lately so this is all good information.
 
dragonflyerthom said:
The vital thing to do is, as in most cases, to reduce power and never push the stick forward quickly.
There is only one time where we can recover from a hover with power and can be discussed later.
Giorgos



I do understand this. That a pilot is reloading the rotors by reducing the power. But then you will need to increase the power after the rotor speed comes back up. All of this takes just seconds and hopefully one doesn't lost much altitude before you are flying on the rotors again.

I think Birdy was giving a method to do this by giving a little side cyclic. I know I have been doing a little slow flight here lately so this is all good information.
Click to expand...


It’s the same case where you want to clear from an obstacle. After clearing your obstacle the correct procedure would be to reduce engine power and neutralize control stick. Then when the gyro is once again level, you may increase power as needed for flying speed. What my statement really means is if you do push the stick forward at a high engine speed and unload the rotors it is possible to experience a : 0: G condition.
Therefore- always after a sharp climb or at high nose with power, reduce engine power, neutralize stick, LEVEL the gyro, then and only then increase speed.
Giorgos
 
But again, I repeat from ANY UNUSUAL ATTITUDE, THE ANSWER IS ALWAYS THE SAME.
And again, ill repeat, its not always the same, coz the cercumstance will not always be the same.

REDUCE THE POWER
CENTRE THE STICK
WAIT FOR THE GYRO TO SETTLE
You gota remember Giorgos, that alota people who need this evasive action are go'n to be close to the ground, and your method is a sure way of hitn the ground.
Reduceing power will see you start to sink and hit the ground.
IOW, theres no one fix for everythn.

In my 42 years of flying gyros Ive never found this is not correct.
Well, i find it amazn that sumone who has been flyn for 42 years has never found themselves sinkn at WOT close to the ground.
REALY amazn. :(

Why should I?
Coz like i said, if your 'instructing' ona world forum, where hundreds of potential readers are follown your 'instruction', you gota be sure you think of EVERY situation.

I think this thread should be in "off topic".
I dissagree Phil, theres sum flyn mothod missconceptions happen'n ere, that need sum clarity.

After clearing your obstacle the correct procedure would be to reduce engine power and neutralize control stick.
Thats if you CAN clear the obstical.
Wot would you do Giorgos, if your already at WOT and out of airspeed and your headed for the obstical?
Do'n nuthn will see you hit it.
Reducing power will see you hit it harder.
Forward stick will also see you hit it harder.

Giorgos, wen your at min AS and WOT, the first thing that will happen if you reduce power and or forward the stick is, youll drop AND loose even more rrpm, [ not good if the 'obstical' is in your line of tradjectory] coz youv just unloaded the rotor even more. So recovery will cost you more alt than if you did nuthn.

What my statement really means is if you do push the stick forward at a high engine speed and unload the rotors it is possible to experience a : 0: G condition.
I know from hundreds of hours ina HTL machine that one would have to shove the stick forward very hard to go to 0G.

Therefore- always after a sharp climb or at high nose with power, reduce engine power, neutralize stick, LEVEL the gyro, then and only then increase speed.
Here we go again.:(
Ever thought of a bit of side stick and leaven the power on Giorgos?
 
Birdy --it appears this thread came out of nowhere and isnt going anywhere --except incoherent ramblings from Giorgos--
 
Mike, i think its just a language thing [ i hope], and see'n as this is a predominatly inglish forum, ill percevier. ;)
 
It seems like these things always go in a predictable track... no yes ut then you siad no i dodnt yes you didnt what i meant yes but...blather lah blah yaddah yaddad....
I just feel what I can and try what I try and remember what I was taught and see how it feels real....

If one were to do try all of whats here most of us would be dead.... but we would still be thinking even as they buried us.

Sorry Im drunk

how refreshing... some bad air
 
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