Gyrocopter Tracking

Good morning everyone, I'm Fabio, a helicopter pilot, I recently arrived on this forum and as already written when I introduced myself, I found the level of preparation of the people who animate the forum to be remarkable. With gyroplanes I have a lot to learn, both in the practical part and not least in the theoretical and aerodynamic part included. At the base where I go to fly they have an authorized workshop for maintenance both for their own machines and for private too and I often happened to witness them doing @TRACKING on the rotor blades, in particular I'm talking about the MD 500 and HS 300, where the blades are equipped with TRIM TABS. Now my question is the following: how is Tracking carried out on a gyroplane? considering that it flies in self-rotation and the relative wind hits the rotor from below..., which instruments are used? and last but not least, how often does this type of intervention on a gyrocopter require? PS: I hope I haven't asked a question regarding a topic that has already been discussed but which I wasn't able to find on the Forum. I defer to the Staff in case they want to move the discussion to the appropriate section or whatever. Thank you. Fabio - Monza. IT. GMT 07.41

Speaking from limited experience, the blades arrive ready to string and may require some minor adjustment.

My first set required a minor tweak to pitch setting which was done with an adjustment on the hub bar.

Second set had some trouble stringing and later tried using the PB4 with mixed results.

Current set perfect out of the box.

Bobby

I have flown primarily in gyros with articulated three blade rotors, and they are tracked just like a helicopter (trim tabs, tip reflectors for strobe light, accelerometers on the airframe, etc.). The flow direction (striking the upper or lower surface of the disc) doesn't make a difference for that purpose.

Mcmanus
Attached is something I wrote a long time ago, I've posted it here once or twice but can't find it with the forum search engine.
In the is document I discuss different racking techniques for gyrocopter rotors.
Mike G

Mcmanus said:

Good morning everyone, I'm Fabio, a helicopter pilot, I recently arrived on this forum and as already written when I introduced myself, I found the level of preparation of the people who animate the forum to be remarkable. With gyroplanes I have a lot to learn, both in the practical part and not least in the theoretical and aerodynamic part included. At the base where I go to fly they have an authorized workshop for maintenance both for their own vehicles and for private vehicles and I often happened to witness them doing @TRECKING on the rotor blades, in particular I'm talking about the MD 500 and HS 300, where the blades are equipped with TRIM TABS. Now my question is the following: how is Tracking carried out on a gyroplane? considering that it flies in self-rotation and the relative wind hits the rotor from below..., which instruments are used? and last but not least, how often does this type of intervention on a gyrocopter require? PS: I hope I haven't asked a question regarding a topic that has already been discussed but which I wasn't able to find on the Forum. I defer to the Staff in case they want to move the discussion to the appropriate section or whatever. Thank you. Fabio - Monza. IT. GMT 07.41

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Tracking is done by making very small changes to the pitch of the rotor blades usually by shimming under the teeter block between teeter block and hub bar. A multi-axis accelerometer for rotor track and balance with proper display is used and behavior of a particular type of rotor system is recorded by making Move lines by introducing deliberate imbalances first. We use PB-4 by Smart Avionics that was developed for rotorcraft with the help of Mike Goodrich who is on this forum. There are some older threads about the subject you will have to search for. Usually making a change in tracking also slightly influences chordwise balance and vice-versa so having some experience with trial and error with a particular type of rotor system makes it go faster. Some rotor systems on gyroplanes like the Italian Magni used to have no provision for being able to track the blades but more recently they have introduced a mechanism to do that.

WaspAir said:

I have flown primarily in gyros with articulated three blade rotors, and they are tracked just like a helicopter (trim tabs, tip reflectors for strobe light, accelerometers on the airframe, etc.). The flow direction (striking the upper or lower surface of the disc) doesn't make a difference for that purpose.

Click to expand...

what you describe is the system that I saw adopted in the base workshop, both on the three-blade of the HS 300 and on the five-blade of the 500.
Thank you!
Fabio.

Sv.grainne said:

Speaking from limited experience, the blades arrive ready to string and may require some minor adjustment.

My first set required a minor tweak to pitch setting which was done with an adjustment on the hub bar.

Second set had some trouble stringing and later tried using the PB4 with mixed results.

Current set perfect out of the box.

Bobby

Click to expand...

PB4 is a procedure that I don't know but which I will now go and study carefully....
Thank you.
Fabio

Abid said:

Tracking is done by making very small changes to the pitch of the rotor blades usually by shimming under the teeter block between teeter block and hub bar. A multi-axis accelerometer for rotor track and balance with proper display is used and behavior of a particular type of rotor system is recorded by making Move lines by introducing deliberate imbalances first. We use PB-4 by Smart Avionics that was developed for rotorcraft with the help of Mike Goodrich who is on this forum. There are some older threads about the subject you will have to search for. Usually making a change in tracking also slightly influences chordwise balance and vice-versa so having some experience with trial and error with a particular type of rotor system makes it go faster. Some rotor systems on gyroplanes like the Italian Magni used to have no provision for being able to track the blades but more recently they have introduced a mechanism to do that.

Click to expand...

as I said at the beginning of this discussion, I realize that despite its simplicity the gyroplane is a machine that is complex in its own way and even more so after this explanation I understand how many precautions and how much experience must be acquired to obtain optimal performance from this aircraft and above all being able to drive it without having those I presume annoying vibrations or excursions that are triggered on the cyclic at every turn of the blade when the tracking is not optimal. I have no experience with the gyroplane, but I happened to see on many videos that even after the pre-rotation phase and then the subsequent take-off run and then even in flight, the pilot's hand on the cyclic "rattled" well and I I've always been told that it must not be a good feeling to fly a gyroplane with this problem on the controls. It happened to me maybe a couple of times with the 300 with the rotor out of tracking... it was a bit like mixing Milanese rice... However, now I at least have a clearer vision regarding Tracking..... Thank you very much!
Fabio.

Mike G said:

Mcmanus
Attached is something I wrote a long time ago, I've posted it here once or twice but can't find it with the forum search engine.
In the is document I discuss different racking techniques for gyrocopter rotors.
Mike G

Mike G said:

Mcmanus
Attached is something I wrote a long time ago, I've posted it here once or twice but can't find it with the forum search engine.
In the is document I discuss different racking techniques for gyrocopter rotors.
Mike G

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Tank you very much Mike for the file you attached, not even doing it on purpose in the photos, the rotor head being worked on is that of a Magni.... Congratulations for what you are able to do on these machines! There's a lot to learn... a lot to learn....

maybe the photo can be useful to visually indicate where you "put the hands" to adjust the tracking....
Thank you to all!
Fabio, Monza, 09.16 am

Fabio
For tracking a Magni with the PB4, the attached should help.

The PB4 is no longer available from Smart Avionics, I have a colleague in France who rents his if you want to try to use one. I used to offer training but have stopped, my colleague still trains PB4 users.
Magni factory also use the PB4.

Also Claudio Pagotto, Brako Gyro manufacturer (near Venice) has and uses a PB4.

Fabrizio Anzelllotti (near Rome) also use a PB4.

Mike Goodrich

I've posted it here once or twice but can't find it with the forum search engine.

Click to expand...

The forum search engine has under performed as long as I can remember, but you can use Google to search a specific site. Entering:
"Mike G balancing tips" site:rotaryforum.com
returns results only from the rotaryforum server, and in the third one I found the attachment. Note the colon between site and rotary, also do not enter any blanks there.

https://www.rotaryforum.com/threads/rotor-balancing-issues.1147367/

The double quotes make sure, that only results containing the exact search term are found, otherwise you might get a gazillion results containing e.g. the name Mike.

I made some noise to an AG rep about the discontinuance of the PB4, who expressed a degree of shock at the news, and told me at the time he'd look into approaching SmartAvionics into restarting production with an AG-branded volume purchase. This was several months ago and I have heard nothing since, so it probably fell off their radar. Hope springs eternal though...

Mcmanus said:

forse la foto può essere utile per indicare visivamente dove "mettere le mani" per regolare l'inseguimento....
Grazie a tutti!
Fabio, Monza, 09:16

Click to expand...

SOn this specific rotor head model it is impossible to trace the blades!! Only with Mike's modification can this be done!!

Strike said:

SOn this specific rotor head model it is impossible to trace the blades!! Only with Mike's modification can this be done!!

Click to expand...

In fact, I saw on the first PDF that Mike attached an image that represents the typical MAGNI rotor during a tuning phase.
Monza. GMT 11.28 F.

Mike G said:

Fabio
For tracking a Magni with the PB4, the attached should help.

The PB4 is no longer available from Smart Avionics, I have a colleague in France who rents his if you want to try to use one. I used to offer training but have stopped, my colleague still trains PB4 users.
Magni factory also use the PB4.

Also Claudio Pagotto, Brako Gyro manufacturer (near Venice) has and uses a PB4.

Fabrizio Anzelllotti (near Rome) also use a PB4.

Mike Goodrich

Click to expand...

Mike, thank you but at the moment it is impossible for me to undertake this type of experience even if I don't deny that it would be very interesting, but then we would need someone who provides the gyroplane and a whole set of things that involve time and more, I imagine that from experience you know what I'm referring to, many things at stake, rental, logistics, equipment.... it would be nice to be able to do it but too complicated to do just from personal experience. ;-)

Koribri282, thanks for that, I knew there was a technique but had never written it down, now I have.
Mike G

nishanh
I'm afraid there's little chance of the PB4 ever coming back.
Like me, Smart Avionics are pretty disenchanted by the gyro community, especially the manufacturers.

Interestingly enough a number of the manufacturers have asked to take over production of the PB4 but they aren't interested in trying to reduce the accident rate with the Smart Avionics GWS.

Mike G

Mike G said:

nishanh
Temo che ci siano poche possibilità che il PB4 ritorni.
Come me, la Smart Avionics è piuttosto disincantata dalla comunità dei giroscopi, in particolare dai produttori.

È interessante notare che un certo numero di produttori hanno chiesto di assumere la produzione del PB4 ma non sono interessati a cercare di ridurre il tasso di incidenti con lo Smart Avionics GWS.

Mike G

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Perché è un guadagno per loro!!

Triste leggere queste cose! Io sono abbastanza a digiuno del mondo degli autogiri e degli ultraleggeri ad ala fissa e rotante e qui mi vengono in mente alcuni discorsi fatti con specialisti che lavorano in officina sugli elicotteri di aviazione generale: MD, HS, Airbus helicopter, Cabrì (grande bello piccolo elicottero, un piccolo Ecureuil che ho avuto il piacere di provare in volo) : non mischiare mai la manutenzione e la sicurezza con il guadagno, chi lavora bene come prima regola mette in linea di volo un velivolo con la certezza di avere fatto il tutto il possibile a livello di manutenzione (e di costruzione in primis) affinchè questo velivolo non abbia incidenti e voli bene, non come un cavallo selvaggio da domare perchè il ciclico sbatte a destra e a sinistra come il battacchio di una campana! :-( a maggior ragione se si tratta di un velivolo che vola a scopo ricreativo, va mantenuto ancora meglio delle machines che sono state prodotte con un vero e proprio programma di manutenzione correlato di manuale! Mi chiedo il perchè si tralasciano in qualche modo i programmi e gli ausilii che sono stati creati per rendere più sicure le cose, forse ci si dimentica che si è per aria, i produttori di settore per primi, forse sono proprio loro a disincantare le persone che hanno messo testa e cuore per creare sistemi utili a tutti.... pur non avendo una azienda che produce machines volanti.....

Non conoscevo il PB4 e nemmeno lo Smart Avionics.... sono andato a dare una occhiata.... https://smartavionics.co.uk/

PS: Grande Mike per avere realizzato queste cose.... credimi che non è solo un pour parlè! Lo penso sul serio!
Un saluto a tutti!
F. Monza GMT 09.50 AM