Insurance

Can I get some updated advice for insurance on my Sportcopter Vortex. Who are people insuring with, what type of coverages, and any insurers to stay away from. At the moment, I am a student pilot and probably will not be far enough in my training to start training on the gyro until next year.

Insurance

We have Liability insurance with Aviation Insurance Resources ( out of Frederick MD) on the Titanium - 2 seater... but they could not offer any insurance for my single place Aurora!
As I understand it, for a student pilot ... insurance on a single - near impossible!
PRA ... may have something ... in the works soon!

GyroPro said:

Can I get some updated advice for insurance on my Sportcopter Vortex. Who are people insuring with, what type of coverages, and any insurers to stay away from. At the moment, I am a student pilot and probably will not be far enough in my training to start training on the gyro until next year.

Click to expand...

When URA was investigating insurance for our group-owned Sport Copter Vortex, quotes were roughly 1/3 the cost of the new aircraft per year in premiums for liability and hull coverage.

Take the same money and buy enough instruction to make sure you don't crack it up.

Hi Paul and Chris,

That's too bad. I was really hoping to hear better news for liability at least.

Thanks,

David

It wouldn't hurt to call Lori.
I have not asked her these specific questions.
She has always been helpful and informative.

Lori Spencer
Producer
Falcon Insurance Agency of Dallas, Inc.
4500 Westgrove, Suite 320
Addison , TX 75001
Toll Free: 800-880-0801
Fax: 972-250-2754

Insurance for Magni gyro

Insurance for Magni gyro

I also went through Falcon and recently got insurance. Our airport requires $1M liability and Falcon found a quote for that for about $1500. Because we are new to gyros, because we have more than one pilot flying the craft and because it was quite expensive, we decided to get hull insurance too, at least for the first year. Basically their quote was 8% of the insured value per year (on top of the liability). That worked out at an extra $4800 a year. So it's really expensive but you can get it.

I've contacted many insurance companies and after the quote I've asked why do you require only $1,200 a year for my Navajo a heavy twin engine cabin class aircraft that I flew over heavily populated areas and $4 to $6k for a gyroplane that normally flies in elsewhere areas and has less that 1% of the mass (weight). When if I were to crash into a car or building in the Navajo I'm going to do much more damage with much more risk of hurting others than my light weight gyro that would not go through the wall or car but probably bounce off of them and only kill me?

None of them have been able to come up with a valid anwser for this question.

PW_Plack said:

When URA was investigating insurance for our group-owned Sport Copter Vortex, quotes were roughly 1/3 the cost of the new aircraft per year in premiums for liability and hull coverage.

Take the same money and buy enough instruction to make sure you don't crack it up.

Click to expand...

That didn't help me, mine got burnt up in a hanger fire. Turn the page.

All_In said:

I've contacted many insurance companies and after the quote I've asked why do you require only $1,200 a year for my Navajo a heavy twin engine cabin class aircraft that I flew over heavily populated areas and $4 to $6k for a gyroplane that normally flies in elsewhere areas and has less that 1% of the mass (weight). When if I were to crash into a car or building in the Navajo I'm going to do much more damage with much more risk of hurting others than my light weight gyro that would not go through the wall or car but probably bounce off of them and only kill me?

None of them have been able to come up with a valid anwser for this question.

Click to expand...

Paul is paying $1,500 per year for a million liability for usage similar to what David is asking about.

That is a long way from $4,000 to $6,000 John.

There aren’t that many gyroplanes purchasing liability insurance so they don’t have the actuarial tables to cut it as fine as your much more common airplane.

Given the abysmal safety record of gyroplanes it is a wonder we can get insurance at all.

My quotes were for full comprehensive insurance too and most of the accidents caused only damage and deaths to the gyro and pilots where their quotes would buy me a new ride in 3 or 4 years or less for a single place Aviomania.

If I crash into a hanger with my gyro it's hard to imagine much damage to the hanger compared to a Navajo and with so little fuel compared to a Navajo the risk of fire is so much less too while sitting in a hanger. Does not make since to me and none of them have had an valid anwser.

PRA is working on an anwser to lowering the cost of insurance to all personal rotorcraft pilots as it's too expensive compared to what I pay for Patches the way it is now.

1. you don't have a comprehensive amount of hulls to insure - fleet too small ...>,<
2. no real set design that is certificated to type design standards - experimental ...O,o
3. Manufactures are too small to subjugate loses - no assets or policy coverage ...O.O
4. the insurance company has a profit margin to keep and wading up that gyro before the ink dries worrys them- a lot. ...ToT...

hillberg said:

1. you don't have a comprehensive amount of hulls to insure - fleet too small ...>,<
2. no real set design that is certificated to type design standards - experimental ...O,o
3. Manufactures are too small to subjugate loses - no assets or policy coverage ...O.O
4. the insurance company has a profit margin to keep and wading up that gyro before the ink dries worrys them- a lot. ...ToT...

Click to expand...

Those are some valid reasons. However if you do the math it means there experience rate is 1/3 to 1/4 of the entire fleet of experimental rotorcraft crash each year in order to break even.

The way to lower hull insurance costs is fewer incidents.

The way to lower hull insurance costs is fewer incidents.

All_In said:

Those are some valid reasons. However if you do the math it means there experience rate is 1/3 to 1/4 of the entire fleet of experimental rotorcraft crash each year in order to break even.

Click to expand...

Paul is paying 8% of the hull value each year.

I have been told that to be profitable an insurance company can’t have more than a 65% loss ratio.

The way I calculate it; that is a total hull loss every 19.2 years for an insurance company to break even charging 8% of the hull value or a loss of 5.2% of the fleet each year.

Based on Steve’s numbers for how many expensive gyroplanes are flying in the USA and the NTSB reports I would suspect that would be a losing game.

A simple tip over in a gyroplane often costs close to half the hull value to repair.

In my opinion the way to lower hull coverage insurance rates is to have fewer gyroplane crashes.

AutoGyro is starting a warrantee program that sounds to me a lot like hull insurance and it will be interesting to see how they that works out for them.

Even Robinson is/was self insured even after certification in the 70s Franks wife handled the insurance end. Having such a small fleet and his early blade problems didn't help.

in the 90s the cost to cover the production of a small helicopter Lloyds asked for
a $80.000 bond per ship till a fleet was big enough for them to profit on the coverage,

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Most homebuilt gyros don't need hull insurance just liability to satisfy airport owners.
Too bad it can't be like the old days with ultralights, USUA used to be able to provide liability for an ultralight for about $450 a year.

Vance said:

Paul is paying 8% of the hull value each year.

I have been told that to be profitable an insurance company can’t have more than a 65% loss ratio.

The way I calculate it; that is a total hull loss every 19.2 years for an insurance company to break even charging 8% of the hull value or a loss of 5.2% of the fleet each year.

Based on Steve’s numbers for how many expensive gyroplanes are flying in the USA and the NTSB reports I would suspect that would be a losing game.

A simple tip over in a gyroplane often costs close to half the hull value to repair.

In my opinion the way to lower hull coverage insurance rates is to have fewer gyroplane crashes.

AutoGyro is starting a warrantee program that sounds to me a lot like hull insurance and it will be interesting to see how they that works out for them.

Click to expand...

As usual you and I are talking about two different things. I'm only talking about what they wanted to charge me for a single place and full coverage as that is all I actually know.
But let me switch to Paul's and only liability insurance.
You read the accident reports. Of the accidents you have read about.

What percentage of the accidents would have the insurance company actually been liable for damage done to others persons or property?

Please don’t try to change the subject John..

Please don’t try to change the subject John..

All_In said:

Those are some valid reasons. However if you do the math it means there experience rate is 1/3 to 1/4 of the entire fleet of experimental rotorcraft crash each year in order to break even.

Click to expand...

All_In said:

As usual you and I are talking about two different things. I'm only talking about what they wanted to charge me for a single place and full coverage as that is all I actually know.
But let me switch to Paul's and only liability insurance.
You read the accident reports. Of the accidents you have read about.

What percentage of the accidents would have the insurance company actually been liable for damage done to others persons or property?

Click to expand...

Paul was nice enough to share a little reality and is paying $6,300 per year for what you incorrectly call full coverage (hull insurance and liability insurance). I was an insurance broker when I owned Harley Davidson of Santa Maria.

Please read my post John, I am writing about hull insurance for a $60,000 gyroplane and what they charged Paul ($4,800). We are talking about the same thing; insurance for a gyroplane.

8% of the value is what they charged him. I even ran the numbers out so you might understand why they charge what they charge.

I don’t know why you were quoted what you were.

Your assertion that a quarter to a third of the fleet would need to crash every year to break even is not reasonable.

The insurance company is not the enemy.

Continuing to rail against them and what you feel are unreasonable prices will only make it more difficult to find insurance for gyroplanes.

Lability is a much more difficult issue to quantify because in Paul’s case there is a cap of a million dollars and that is why I didn’t get into it.

It takes 666 $1,500 policies to pay for a single million dollar pay off or 1,025 policies to break even.

Kill or cripple a passenger and it is not hard to spend a million dollars.

Hit some people landing with a gyroplane and it is not hard to spend a million dollars.

Hit someone with a prop at Mentone and it is not hard to spend a million dollars.

It is simple Vance. The accidents I've read for gyroplanes have less damage than the FW wing aircraft I've insured currently and in the past.
Patches is worth more than my single place Aviomania the G1sa gyropalne has less mass and carries less fuel. My Archer flies for almost 6 hours and I travel further over congested area with much more risk of bodily harm to 4 passengers and those on the ground.

Much more risk and exposure for Patches yet I only pay $600. per year for full coverage and with 1 million dollars of liability insurance.
None of the gyroplane insurance companies or you so far have explained why this is the case.

I do know with over 10K in hours logged in all type of FW aircraft, ultralights, hang gliders and FW wing gliders and that I have never had an incidence or accident that I get a major break compared to other pilots with the same aircraft and less time but it only about 50% to 80% lower depending on their hours etc. One company quoted me $6,000 that's a major increase for less exposure and risk to them.

All_In said:

It is simple Vance. The accidents I've read for gyroplanes have less damage than the FW wing aircraft I've insured currently and in the past.
Patches is worth more than my single place Aviomania the G1sa gyropalne has less mass and carries less fuel. My Archer flies for almost 6 hours and I travel further over congested area with much more risk of bodily harm to 4 passengers and those on the ground.

Much more risk and exposure for Patches yet I only pay $600. per year for full coverage and with 1 million dollars of liability insurance.
None of the gyroplane insurance companies or you so far have explained why this is the case.

I do know with over 10K in hours logged in all type of FW aircraft, ultralights, hang gliders and FW wing gliders and that I have never had an incidence or accident that I get a major break compared to other pilots with the same aircraft and less time but it only about 50% to 80% lower depending on their hours etc. One company quoted me $6,000 that's a major increase for less exposure and risk to them.

Click to expand...

It’s simple John; the insurance companies want to stay in business and make a profit.

In my opinion they understand risk and how to run an insurance company a lot better than you do John.