Rotor blades tips?

Brun

Curious Newbie
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
11
Location
Quelquepart
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2-seat gyros
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22, student
Most rotor manufacturers don't use any blades tips though helicopters mostly use them.
It is clear that tips would make manufacturing more complex and blades would become more expensive.
But it is also almost clear that tips would increase rotor efficience.

So a question(s) to sages: how much would rotor efficiency increase if tips were added?
Say, for 27' Dragon Wings?

Is it possible to add tips to DW by gyro builder (if builder feels confident enough in understanding blade stresses and possible dangers in such invasion in blade design)?

Thanks in advance,

Brun
 
Most rotor manufacturers don't use any blades tips though helicopters mostly use them.
It is clear that tips would make manufacturing more complex and blades would become more expensive.
But it is also almost clear that tips would increase rotor efficience.

So a question(s) to sages: how much would rotor efficiency increase if tips were added?
Say, for 27' Dragon Wings?

Is it possible to add tips to DW by gyro builder (if builder feels confident enough in understanding blade stresses and possible dangers in such invasion in blade design)?

Thanks in advance,

Brun

It absolutely makes a BIG difference in all around performance, requiring much less power and time for spin-up, less airspeed and throttle setting to fly, makes much less noise and autorotates better.

Think about it..... It's the most amount of drag on the blade, at the fastest part of the blade, happening at the point where the its leverage reacts with the greatest effect.

I always use special designed tips, and have never used a flat tip.

Anyone that makes rotorblades with a flat tip is cutting corners at your expense. So if they cut corners there, where else are they cutting corners??? IMO.
 

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It absolutely makes a BIG difference in all around performance, requiring much less power and time for spin-up, less airspeed and throttle setting to fly, makes much less noise and autorotates better.

I'm aware it's not that obvious without any numbers. Comparing to helos gyro's tip speed is lower, especially at prerotation where no significant losses may be expected at all. I heard that Robinson tried different tips on their blades and got only 1.5 - 2.0% increased efficiency with best samples of tips (3-4 hp saving for 200 hp engine).
In case of gyro profit may appear to be so small that it doesn't worth to add tips at all.
This is why I asked about quantitative experience and real world numbers.
 
I'm aware it's not that obvious without any numbers. Comparing to helos gyro's tip speed is lower, especially at prerotation where no significant losses may be expected at all. I heard that Robinson tried different tips on their blades and got only 1.5 - 2.0% increased efficiency with best samples of tips (3-4 hp saving for 200 hp engine).
In case of gyro profit may appear to be so small that it doesn't worth to add tips at all.
This is why I asked about quantitative experience and real world numbers.

Your welcome.
 
If the blade is mostly hollow with uncapped open ends, and air has an entryway at the root, then you could also experience significant "pumping" losses from that as well. If enough air enters the root and exits the tip, the rotor essentially becomes a gigantic centrifugal compressor. The rotor system pumping air decreases its flying performance and efficiency.

I actually pondered the idea of putting a combustor at the end of a hollow blade, and then burning fuel in the compressed air at the tips to make a tipjet copter. But I ran the numbers and the efficiency was horrible, as I'm sure Doblhoff et al learned ~70 some odd years ago.
 
If the blade is mostly hollow with uncapped open ends, and air has an entryway at the root, then you could also experience significant "pumping" losses from that as well. If enough air enters the root and exits the tip, the rotor essentially becomes a gigantic centrifugal compressor. The rotor system pumping air decreases its flying performance and efficiency.

I actually pondered the idea of putting a combustor at the end of a hollow blade, and then burning fuel in the compressed air at the tips to make a tipjet copter. But I ran the numbers and the efficiency was horrible, as I'm sure Doblhoff et al learned ~70 some odd years ago.

It takes 100,000 feet of atmosphere being pulled by gravity to produce only 14.7 pounds per square inch.

A rotor being turned at 350rpm that is only 10 foot long would produce something equivalent to a good-hardy fart after a dinner at Hooters.......
but without the smell, so some consolation there I guess.
 
Congrats Dennis,

You actually made me "laugh out loud"

On the subject, I'm not aware of any rotor system that doesn't have tips. Have I not done my homework or is there a manufacturer that leaves their tips open?
 
Congrats Dennis,

You actually made me "laugh out loud"

Your lucky, I was going to calculate out how much "fart-power" it would have took, but my wife didn't want to eat at Hooters again this week, and I can't reach around far enough with my flow meter.

On the subject, I'm not aware of any rotor system that doesn't have tips. Have I not done my homework or is there a manufacturer that leaves their tips open?

No one leaves them open, except for Rotorway on their tail rotor... stupid. Their talking about flat noisy draggy sawed-off inefficient blade ends, capped off.
 
>A rotor being turned at 350rpm that is only 10 foot long would produce something equivalent to a good-hardy fart after a dinner at Hooters.......


W=D*T Dennis .. that column of air from the ground to space that you mentioned is static. At 350 RPM th tip of the blade is moving 366 ft/sec and as such it can and does function like an asperator started centrifugal pump. Air in the blade is accelerated in the same way that water in a hose would be if you put one end in a bucket of water and spun it- this was a common problem with early wooden / cloth rotors (which were moving slower) and they had to address it in blade construction by venting. Check out Gessow / Meyers p.33 ...
 
>A rotor being turned at 350rpm that is only 10 foot long would produce something equivalent to a good-hardy fart after a dinner at Hooters.......


W=D*T Dennis .. that column of air from the ground to space that you mentioned is static. At 350 RPM th tip of the blade is moving 366 ft/sec and as such it can and does function like an asperator started centrifugal pump. Air in the blade is accelerated in the same way that water in a hose would be if you put one end in a bucket of water and spun it- this was a common problem with early wooden / cloth rotors (which were moving slower) and they had to address it in blade construction by venting. Check out Gessow / Meyers p.33 ...

Yes, I know. Only giving a comparison of the level of force on air and what it takes for it's compressibility, and how little the effect would really be in comparison. I thought that would have been plainly obvious? Static or not, its the air behind itself that makes the pressure, ether due to gravity or centrifugal force.
 
I'm slow Dennis- it wasn't obvious to me how your analogy about a column of air and intestinal distress related to each other, much less to SnoBird's contention that a rotor can function as a pump and that this, along with all other losses, contributes to less than ideal performance. It's a long lasting fart that carries whatever weight it does; sounded to me like he was agreeing with you and adding yet another loss that you hadn't. Some volume of air would move through the blade and it would do what it does and it isn't clear to me that it's negligable. Not your job, no grief.

This thread starts with a request to estimate the efficiency that could be gained by adding some sort of (one assumes) aerodynamically efficient end cap. You pointed out several factors such as induced drag and (rightly) pointed out that (theoretically) you couldn't pick a worse place to apply undesired forces on the end of a free beam because of the length of the moment arm.

Then he pointed out that he was trying to quantify the improvement and cited reports that compared both blunt end vs theoretically wonderful caps only to find about 3% difference- I read that as "but what's the math?"

And the result of the math as documented basically boils down to a fudge factor developed back in the 20's based on blade count. The efficiency calculation becomes one where you create a ratio of the ideal rotor and the estimated one using this fudge factor to calculate disk loading.

Just as small undesired control forces are greatly magnified at the end of the rotor, so too is radius to disk loading. For steady state flight the difference between blunt ends or practically perfect is negligible .. add an inch to the radius of the rotor and you've dealt with it.

That said, for a gyroplane the motor effectively drives the rotor through a pneumatic transmission so even small losses are magnified. At a gut level I'd tend to agree with the basic thrust of what you're saying (I think) which would be something along the line of "you should pretty much always do what you can and if you can make it look nice too why wouldn't you?"

Which didn't seem to match your response to SnoBird who was agreeing with you and adding another contributing effect that gets addressed by end caps, blunt or curvy. Like anything deciding what really matters most requires quantification ... if you don't have the equipment to measure it empirically or the math to describe it then it ends up being like describing how a chili dog tastes to somebody from another country.
 
I'm slow Dennis- it wasn't obvious to me how your analogy about a column of air and intestinal distress related to each other, much less to SnoBird's contention that a rotor can function as a pump and that this, along with all other losses, contributes to less than ideal performance. It's a long lasting fart that carries whatever weight it does; sounded to me like he was agreeing with you and adding yet another loss that you hadn't. Some volume of air would move through the blade and it would do what it does and it isn't clear to me that it's negligable. Not your job, no grief.

This thread starts with a request to estimate the efficiency that could be gained by adding some sort of (one assumes) aerodynamically efficient end cap. You pointed out several factors such as induced drag and (rightly) pointed out that (theoretically) you couldn't pick a worse place to apply undesired forces on the end of a free beam because of the length of the moment arm.

Then he pointed out that he was trying to quantify the improvement and cited reports that compared both blunt end vs theoretically wonderful caps only to find about 3% difference- I read that as "but what's the math?"

And the result of the math as documented basically boils down to a fudge factor developed back in the 20's based on blade count. The efficiency calculation becomes one where you create a ratio of the ideal rotor and the estimated one using this fudge factor to calculate disk loading.

Just as small undesired control forces are greatly magnified at the end of the rotor, so too is radius to disk loading. For steady state flight the difference between blunt ends or practically perfect is negligible .. add an inch to the radius of the rotor and you've dealt with it.

That said, for a gyroplane the motor effectively drives the rotor through a pneumatic transmission so even small losses are magnified. At a gut level I'd tend to agree with the basic thrust of what you're saying (I think) which would be something along the line of "you should pretty much always do what you can and if you can make it look nice too why wouldn't you?"

Which didn't seem to match your response to SnoBird who was agreeing with you and adding another contributing effect that gets addressed by end caps, blunt or curvy. Like anything deciding what really matters most requires quantification ... if you don't have the equipment to measure it empirically or the math to describe it then it ends up being like describing how a chili dog tastes to somebody from another country.

Ooooook Larry, thank you for your post.
 
Actually Larry the thread starts with "Most rotor manufacturers don't use any blades tips though helicopters mostly use them."

Obviously this person hasn't checked their facts.
 
Are we really missing his true point to the guestion? Lets take the DW, KB blades as an example. The tips are flat and yes pluged would the blades be more efficience if a blade tip like the ones or simmular to the ones Mr. Fetters posted in the pics were added and if yes is that improvement worth the effort please explain your answer.

Please don't take shots at each other it's ok to disagree but explain in plain terms your explination here.

Dan
 
I don't know what the question is. Do you?

As far as I know DW's come with tips.......so you can't really ADD them can you?

Is he asking IF they didn't come with them? I wouldn't think so based on his entire post.

I don't believe I have taken a "shot" at anyone. I have stated only facts and wish no ill will toward anyone.

Wait a minute...is he asking if you can REMOVE the "stock" tip and ADD a different tip? In that case I wouldn't recommend it.
 
I don't know what the question is. Do you?

As far as I know DW's come with tips.......so you can't really ADD them can you?

Is he asking IF they didn't come with them? I wouldn't think so based on his entire post.

I don't believe I have taken a "shot" at anyone. I have stated only facts and wish no ill will toward anyone.

Wait a minute...is he asking if you can REMOVE the "stock" tip and ADD a different tip? In that case I wouldn't recommend it.


I'm so lost now........ I'm going home.
 
Just curious... Does anybody out there know how many Hooters Buffalo Wings it takes to activate a standard bypass valve at sea level?
 
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