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[gyroplanes]

My general comment about the PRA

My general comment about the PRA

The PRA is near and dear to my heart. I have lots of good memories of board meetings with Dr. Bensen, Ken Brock, Helen Darvassy, Dave Prater, Geo Charlet and the Jansen's to name a few. They were golden times in the new world of gyroplaning.

I enjoy nostalgia but realize it has very little significance in the fast growing world.

An e-zine could be cc'ed to anyone and gives fewer reasons to join the PRA. An e-zine could be all color, almost free and a lot more timely. There has to be a reason why the "big boys" haven't gone to it.

In my opinion, the PRA needs:

• To stop cutting services and raising fees, you can't expect to grow membership by offering less for more.
  
• To interact more with the chapters, provide for the chapters and help them grow (I saw signs of this at the Wauchula BoD meeting, thanks Dean, for your efforts)
  
• To get out there and sell memberships. Promote PRA at the chapter level. Get a professional, portable display and get it out there, at the chapter level and at regional events. (I'll help pay for it and man it. Any others want in?)
  
• A colorful website, easy to navigate and chock full of information is needed, and needed bad, real bad.
  
• A colorful magazine, overflowing with gyro related advertisers, technical articles and articles that show how much fun we are having (where have I been on all these ? My bad)
  
• A safety "go-team" (got that, Thanks Jim)
  
• A headquarters we can be proud of. (got that, Thanks Gary, Art, & the BoD)
  
• A well paid, cheerful, efficient and hard working office staff (got all that, except for the "well paid". Thanks Jennifer & the girls)
  
• A voice in Washington (got that,Thanks Greg)
  
• The biggest gathering of sport rotorcraft in the world, every gyro & parts vendor in attendance. Seminars, history, hands on building skills, demo flights and instructions. A fun time for the whole family. (got some of that. More volunteers needed)

If you build it, they WILL come, they will join, and all of the PRA's problems will be solved by increased membership.

To "build it", we need money and volunteers.

Sign up here.

 

[All_In]

I see the insurance issue as the greatest stumbling block for gyros in the USA. I had an office and hangar location available in Chicago's premier helicopter flight school, Sun Aero Helicopters, I had a Xenon dealership, Xenon aircraft, CFI and mechanic all poised to go into the gyro business. It all went away due to the incredibly high cost of insurance. My Beech Sundowner, used for instruction, has an insurance premium of around $900. per year (with a $500. deductable) The Xenon premium was around $14,500, with a $14,500. deductable.....insane.

We too are fed up and recognized this problem for antique wooden boats too and FW pilots in out group of friends.
I have taken the first steps. Discovery for setting up an insurance company As I’m the only one in our group that was involved in the paper work for setting up a boat insurance co.
Group insurance is definitely possible as Lloyd of London will underwrite a major portion of a cheap catechuic policy which can be filled lue of Assets/Cash in the state of California. Each State has it’s on rules and commissioner. (I think)
Just don’t know if it will be cheaper than what we are paying now.
And putting Experimental’s in the mix would definitely increase our accident experience rate but the investigation has already begun at a rate of about 10 min’s a day.

I normally don’t have reservations. But I’m not optimistic (unusual for me) on this one so haven’t really applied the time needed yet to know for sure. I have an attorney involved. But he too is doing nothing, I just checked!

Then I will approach the major insurance co's directly as part of the marketing study and compare prices.

I have to prioritize and I’m a little overwhelmed right now, trying to get places to fly here as if my friends and family don't have a place to practice to be safe close by, they won't need insurance just I and the other licensed pilots with mode C capabilities will.

John

 

[All_In]

Our number one sales tool has been languishing for years. FYI, we used to have a paid webmaster.

Yes I did and didn't mention it but I belonged to these folks and been to their conventions.

It is a great site and remember copy everything that is successful you see.
Causes were really just monkeys.
Monkeys see monkey do!

Thanks for the link,
John

 

[gyroplanes]

I have to prioritize and I’m a little overwhelmed right now, trying to get places to fly here as if my friends and family don't have a place to practice to be safe close by, they won't need insurance just I and the other licensed pilots with mode C capabilities will.

John

One of our members was a farmer, he said the farmer's have a newspaper, just for them.

He ran an ad in that paper, looking for a place that we could fly our gyros out of.

We received 3 or 4 responses to our free ad. The winner was a 1320 foot grass strip and hangar, on a local farm, for $80.00 a month (1976)
The owner cut the grass early every Saturday morning and brought us home made lemonade.

To this day, every time I smell a freshly cut lawn it takes me back to doing crow hops and the Bensen manual.

I wish the same good fortune.

 

[barnstorm2]

[*]To get out there and sell memberships. Promote PRA at the chapter level. Get a professional, portable display and get it out there, at the chapter level and at regional events. (I'll help pay for it and man it. Any others want in?)
.

I'm in for $50 (sorry I can't do more I just put out for 2 new Lycoming cylinders, annual and a new water heater, all unexpected except the annual)

And I will commit to taking it to at least 2 events (airshows or motorcycle events).

I am a VMD vendor. It is the largest motorcycle swapmeet in the world. It cost me close to 2K a year to participate. I will gladly add the PRA display to mine and talk gyro kits to bikers.

.

 

[quadrirotor]

Did the P.R.A. determine which gyro is ANSI Standards compliant?
Did the P.R.A. determine the "ACTUAL" performances (speed, ROC, etc...) of the commun gyros?
Etc...For beginning!

 

[All_In]

John, your enthusiasm is refreshing and while 'doing nothing isn't your style', I would suggest you step back and take a deep breath and make sure that you aren't doing more damage than good.

You remind me of a contract project engineer that used to work with me. We would be in a meeting where a project was proposed to take care of some problem and if I wasn't careful he would do a quick exit and jump on it then and there. Problem was, all the requirements hadn't been identified! He got things done but, until I realized what he would do and was capable of, it resulted in a lot of expensive rework.

As far as the magazine goes, first, the magazine is copyrighted. Second, we don't know if there are other issues the PRA might have with a Zine. I would suggest that you contact three of the major PRA players and lay out your proposal before you expend much more effort on this. If you want the names and contact info then let me know and I'll PM or email them to you.

I hate to suggest that you slow up because I'm a firm believer in grass roots members stepping up and helping. I've mentioned before that I feel that the PRA BOD should be outsourcing to the members/chapters when ever possible. The board can't possibly do everything that is required, wanted, whatever.

Thanks Dean knew I could count on you to help!
Yes pretty please with sugar on top, PM me with the most creative thinker or a business owner type in charge of PRA.

Sorry Dean, unlike all my machines I only have one speed, Full Power. Sleep only 4 hours a night for years on end because I’m always only working or playing at what I love to do! Can’t wait to get up at start again. Now it’s Gyro’s so you’re stuck with me.

Understand I was doing all of these things (the same labor for 1 as it is for the many) prior to finding this great site for my friends that play together. I’m also not normally behind the learning curve regarding computes and my family and friends are going to need to start marketing using eZines so I need to evaluate and learn this for myself anyway.

I just don’t wish to waste time. It’s much easier to write a custom program the first time than to re-write having to change the database and programs to include the new data fields PRA may wish to retain in order to automate the entire process.

So doing for San Diego needs only, I will probably never re-write it as once finished with a project I’m bore with it and it’s won’t be fun any longer.

This may be your one chance to get your entire computer wish list done the right way for free, solely because I wish to do it now, and won’t latter.
I’ll be out camping and flying one of my new Gyros, promoting them.

Cheers,
John

 

[StanFoster]

StanFoster

StanFoster

Tom and Tim- There are 2 board member positions to be filled. I cant think of a better pair to fill those slots! You 2 would be shoe ins. Stan

 

[All_In]

I'm in for $50 (sorry I can't do more I just put out for 2 new Lycoming cylinders, annual and a new water heater, all unexpected except the annual)

And I will commit to taking it to at least 2 events (airshows or motorcycle events).

I am a VMD vendor. It is the largest motorcycle swapmeet in the world. It cost me close to 2K a year to participate. I will gladly add the PRA display to mine and talk gyro kits to bikers.

.

Oh this is great!!!!
You are the Man.
Whose next, this is exactly what we need and it fun to help!
John

 

[All_In]

One of our members was a farmer, he said the farmer's have a newspaper, just for them.

He ran an ad in that paper, looking for a place that we could fly our gyros out of.

We received 3 or 4 responses to our free ad. The winner was a 1320 foot grass strip and hangar, on a local farm, for $80.00 a month (1976)
The owner cut the grass early every Saturday morning and brought us home made lemonade.

To this day, every time I smell a freshly cut lawn it takes me back to doing crow hops and the Bensen manual.

I wish the same good fortune.

Tom very helpful, and I almost missed your post!!
I'm going to copy that and add it to my bag of tricks!
Thanks Tom,
John

 

[barnstorm2]

John,

Tom brought up a point that I am concerned about.

If we do provide an e-zine what can be done to keep people from emailing it around? Also, could this be a reason why the EAA and others have not adopted this format?


Ron and I disagree about the paper magazine.

I think there is too large of a population of non-internet savvy PRA members to go cold turkey on the paper mag at this time.

I would support:

A. An EXPANDED e-zine for internet users that includes more photos, and info for the current issues stories.*

B. Opt out of paper mag at reduced cost **

C. Opt out of paper mag at same cost***

*This would allow us to safely build and test the architecture for EVENTUALLY going completely digital or adding the opt-out plan. This would allow us to work the bugs out before rolling out a change that would affect the delivery of the principle magazine.

** keep in mind that this might NOT reduce the cost of printing the paper mag. It might be that we pay about the same for say 1500 mags as say 1000 mags. The one thing we would get a guarantee of savings on would be POSTAGE.

*** This would allow some PRA members to switch to the virtual mag and then donate the remainder of the membership dues to the PRA. This would make an easy way for members that are enthusiastic about the PRA to give the club a little 'boost'.

.

 

[PW_Plack]

As far as the magazine goes, first, the magazine is copyrighted. Second, we don't know if there are other issues the PRA might have with a Zine...

Ripping off copyrighted material by sharing it on the web is rampant. The headlines are all about the impact on the music industry and abuses on YouTube, but it happens way more often with printed material.

Right now, someone who wants to pay his PRA membership and copy the magazine for sharing with 100 friends online has to go to the hassle of scanning it. Put it online, and you've saved him the trouble. I know from my experience trying to do an e-newsletter for PRA that cannibalizing in any way the magazine's readership and exclusivity will be a concern, and a legitimate one.

Every time someone scans the cover of a magazine, page from a service manual, etc. and posts it here, a copyright is violated, and those concerns are fed. I don't blame the PRA board for being antsy about putting what it considers its primary value to members out here in the land of ones and zeros.

 

[All_In]

John,

Tom brought up a point that I am concerned about.

If we do provide an e-zine what can be done to keep people from emailing it around? Also, could this be a reason why the EAA and others have not adopted this format?

Yes they could steal a copy of the mag. I can make it hard but never impossible.
Can’t speculate as to why EAA isn’t doing it. But just as many thieves can scan a hardcopy into a computer a steal and distribute the hardcopy as a eZine because only member can gain access to the page after logging in. We would have to prosecute it just as we would have to for a hard copy. There is no different with stealing can’t be stopped for paper either.
Also my future BOD leader (like the sound of that) magazines rates are based on circulation. Co’s know to spend advertizing money whit the greatest audience. I understand why out mag is restricted and think many of the main articles/ pages should remain so. But with a eZine we could publish extra content of human interest stories like accidents reports and stories of the air fields and grandchild ATV park, etc.
All the advertisers adv’s could also be displayed in the Free section.
Increasing our circulation their pay ads circulation right off the bat giving our sales staff a new tool to sell space.
This is a case of penny-wise pound foolish as without circulation you have to sell advertisements space at much lower newsletter rates.

I heard the same concern when Xerox came out with the copy machine. Authors and books are dead, band the copy machine! There aren’t that many thieves, really.

Ron and I disagree about the paper magazine.

I think there is too large of a population of non-internet savvy PRA members to go cold turkey on the paper mag at this time.

I totally agree. But one day if you don’t wish just to print your own hardcopy on your printer. A member will have to pay extra for the postage and paper, at least that’s the current trend I see developing.

I would support:

A. An EXPANDED e-zine for internet users that includes more photos, and info for the current issues stories.*

B. Opt out of paper mag at reduced cost **

C. Opt out of paper mag at same cost***

*This would allow us to safely build and test the architecture for EVENTUALLY going completely digital or adding the opt-out plan. This would allow us to work the bugs out before rolling out a change that would affect the delivery of the principle magazine.

** keep in mind that this might NOT reduce the cost of printing the paper mag. It might be that we pay about the same for say 1500 mags as say 1000 mags. The one thing we would get a guarantee of savings on would be POSTAGE.

*** This would allow some PRA members to switch to the virtual mag and then donate the remainder of the membership dues to the PRA. This would make an easy way for members that are enthusiastic about the PRA to give the club a little 'boost'.

.

Totally agree and the best advice I can give too and these extra pages could be free expanding our circulation and truly increasing our value to our advertisers!!!!

John

I guess I'm going to have to look and see who on the BOD now, anyone I know here?

 

[All_In]

Oh I just thought of a great marketing test for us.
Publish the test mag for free during the tests.
See if the membership increases enough to justify making it free all the time and what type of maximum circulation would be if it where for free.
Excellent opportunity to find out which way a magazine could become more profitable to PRA.

John

 

[PW_Plack]

My Beech Sundowner, used for instruction, has an insurance premium of around $900. per year (with a $500. deductable) The Xenon premium was around $14,500, with a $14,500. deductable.....insane.

Tom, insurance companies are not charities. You wanted to fly an aircraft category/class which, according to best available data, (admittedly not very good,) has a rate of fatalities per flight hour between 20 and 23 times that of general aviation as a whole.

Multiplying your fixed-wing's $900 premium by 20-23 yields $18,000 to $20,700. Sounds to me like they offered you a discount!

I used to think the best way PRA could improve the availability of reasonably-priced insurance was to work to improve the sport's safety record. In a few years of looking more closely at the sport, I've become a little more pragmatic. Many participants in the sport are dead-set (dark pun intended) on hanging onto known risk factors despite scientific and anecdotal evidence of the dangers. Given this impasse, the bad record will almost certainly continue, leaving only one reasonable strategy for getting insurance rates down - intentionally divide the sport.

In market segments where tens of millions of customer accounts are at stake, the insurance companies do this work on their own. Underwriters look at statistics to identify what the risk factors are, sock it to those who have them, and give discounts to those who avoid them. If you build a house 20 miles from the nearest fire department, or buy your 16-year-old son a Dodge Viper, you pay more to insure them, because you expose the insurance companies to a higher risk of payouts.

The gyroplane sport is so small that it's not worth any insurance company's time to do this homework. It's better protection for the shareholders to simply avoid the segment completely.

So, the gyroplane community (or the organization which claims to speak for it) will have to do this on its own, document it to stringent standards, and present insurance underwriters with a set of standards which can accurately predict the risk of payout. This is going to split the sport in two. If you're PRA, can you afford to alienate a large chunk of your membership, even if you're doing it with the truth?

There are only two ways group insurance will happen for gyroplanes, IMHO.

One would be a new, competing organization more focused on safety research and standards, and the members who would defect from PRA would, unfortunately, happen to be the ones which represent PRA's future. I see this as unlikely.

The other would be a manufacturers association, formed among those marketing stable kits and hoping to sell factory-built SLSA gyroplanes. These manufacturers could voluntarily move aggressively into standardized testing for stability, raise the bar on training, and solve both the FAA and insurance industry problems.

I see this as a very possible development, because some manufacturers have already demonstrated they see setting a high standard as a better business proposition than protecting sacred cows. RFD, AAI are good examples.

There is also precedent for a manufacturers association. The Ask First Society was widely criticized for its premise that training alone was the answer, but it did initially draw participation by several manufacturers, all of whom thought, I believe, that they were doing the right thing at the time.

Long story short, there's nothing PRA (or any other group which might try to replace it as an advocate for the sport) can do about insurance availability and rates unless it can either (a) eliminate unstable machines and "stupid pilot tricks," or (b) segregate the sport based on risky behavior.

By the way, many people are horrified at the idea of further dividing the sport, assuming it will hurt our chances of making progress with the FAA on the LSA issue. I don't believe that's true. If anything, the attempt to hold the sport together is muddying the LSA issue. I bet the FAA would like nothing better than to have the old-schoolers split off, and move ahead with rewarding safer designs.

 

[PW_Plack]

Here's a question for those of you who like to archive the printed magazine.

What if you could receive each issue of the magazine online, then get the entire year's five or six issues mailed to you, all at once, at the end of the year? It would save substantially on postage compared to mailing each copy individually, and you'd still have something for the bookshelf, eventually.

 

[PW_Plack]

Yes they could steal a copy of the mag. I can make it hard but never impossible.

John, would it be possible to somehow watermark each copy of the magazine distributed online to be traceable to the login from which it was downloaded? If you could know who distributed bootleg copies, and all the members knew they'd get caught if they did it, you might be able to keep it under control.

 

[All_In]

Here's a question for those of you who like to archive the printed magazine.

What if you could receive each issue of the magazine online, then get the entire year's five or six issues mailed to you, all at once, at the end of the year? It would save substantially on postage compared to mailing each copy individually, and you'd still have something for the bookshelf, eventually.

This is worth a survey with members!!!

Good one,
John

 

[All_In]

My Beech Sundowner, used for instruction, has an insurance premium of around $900. per year (with a $500. deductable) The Xenon premium was around $14,500, with a $14,500. deductable.....insane.

Tom, insurance companies are not charities. You wanted to fly an aircraft category/class which, according to best available data, (admittedly not very good,) has a rate of fatalities per flight hour between 20 and 23 times that of general aviation as a whole.

Multiplying your fixed-wing's $900 premium by 20-23 yields $18,000 to $20,700. Sounds to me like they offered you a discount!

I used to think the best way PRA could improve the availability of reasonably-priced insurance was to work to improve the sport's safety record. In a few years of looking more closely at the sport, I've become a little more pragmatic. Many participants in the sport are dead-set (dark pun intended) on hanging onto known risk factors despite scientific and anecdotal evidence of the dangers. Given this impasse, the bad record will almost certainly continue, leaving only one reasonable strategy for getting insurance rates down - intentionally divide the sport.

In market segments where tens of millions of customer accounts are at stake, the insurance companies do this work on their own. Underwriters look at statistics to identify what the risk factors are, sock it to those who have them, and give discounts to those who avoid them. If you build a house 20 miles from the nearest fire department, or buy your 16-year-old son a Dodge Viper, you pay more to insure them, because you expose the insurance companies to a higher risk of payouts.

The gyroplane sport is so small that it's not worth any insurance company's time to do this homework. It's better protection for the shareholders to simply avoid the segment completely.

So, the gyroplane community (or the organization which claims to speak for it) will have to do this on its own, document it to stringent standards, and present insurance underwriters with a set of standards which can accurately predict the risk of payout. This is going to split the sport in two. If you're PRA, can you afford to alienate a large chunk of your membership, even if you're doing it with the truth?

There are only two ways group insurance will happen for gyroplanes, IMHO.

One would be a new, competing organization more focused on safety research and standards, and the members who would defect from PRA would, unfortunately, happen to be the ones which represent PRA's future. I see this as unlikely.

The other would be a manufacturers association, formed among those marketing stable kits and hoping to sell factory-built SLSA gyroplanes. These manufacturers could voluntarily move aggressively into standardized testing for stability, raise the bar on training, and solve both the FAA and insurance industry problems.

I see this as a very possible development, because some manufacturers have already demonstrated they see setting a high standard as a better business proposition than protecting sacred cows. RFD, AAI are good examples.

There is also precedent for a manufacturers association. The Ask First Society was widely criticized for its premise that training alone was the answer, but it did initially draw participation by several manufacturers, all of whom thought, I believe, that they were doing the right thing at the time.

Long story short, there's nothing PRA (or any other group which might try to replace it as an advocate for the sport) can do about insurance availability and rates unless it can either (a) eliminate unstable machines and "stupid pilot tricks," or (b) segregate the sport based on risky behavior.

By the way, many people are horrified at the idea of further dividing the sport, assuming it will hurt our chances of making progress with the FAA on the LSA issue. I don't believe that's true. If anything, the attempt to hold the sport together is muddying the LSA issue. I bet the FAA would like nothing better than to have the old-schoolers split off, and move ahead with rewarding safer designs.

Sent this to my attorney it has two points I didn't include in mine to him!
My thoughts too with one addition all gyros would have to be inspected and accepted into the group insurance plan. Also annual inspections would have to be sent to the insurer at least each year.

Don't know if you helped anyone else but you really have help me, Thanks,
John

 

[All_In]

Yes they could steal a copy of the mag. I can make it hard but never impossible.

John, would it be possible to somehow watermark each copy of the magazine distributed online to be traceable to the login from which it was downloaded? If you could know who distributed bootleg copies, and all the members knew they'd get caught if they did it, you might be able to keep it under control.

Yes all the programs that use PDF files can, at least! Not sure about the other ones yet, that's one reason for testing!

That's exactly what I was thinking!
John