Join Pra Or Not? Free Forum Or Not?

[gyroplanes]

Que Pasa?

Que Pasa?

Airport Airport Airport

Are you for it, or agin' it?

If you are not "for it", you don't have the facts.

 

[scott heger]

John,
"I’m already talking a friend into leasing San Diego County PRA Chapter some land to fly out of, because Gyro are so hard to learn and fly here."

If you get a paved landing area in San Diego county,the gyros will fly and show up for a event. Me included.

The last great "feat" of the PRA was the FAA 5209 flight training exemption allowing training in uncertificated aircraft. This allowed us all to learn in something other than a heavy two place certificated gyro that had almost no flight characteristics to the single places we were going to fly after training. That was 20 years ago. Other than buying and including paying $60,000 for paving Mentone airport that most PRA members will never use with membership dues, not much has gotten done over the last two decades. You can only string people along so long without delivering some benefits when you are asking for money. There is nothing wrong with writing a check to a non profit organization like the PRA, but the dwindling membership shows that people are voting their displeasure by NOT sending in dues. That is not being negative, it is a fact bourne out by the continually declining membership.
The good ol' boy system that does not welcome outsiders or even promote the PRA at Mentone or Bensen days(or El Mirage), is not working so well. If every pilot tried to spend one hour per weekend just answering newbie questions(not always fun), I bet a lot more interest could be generated. When at El Mirage, I try to spend one hour per day answering questions of interested people that don't have aircraft. I really try to be a positive and friendly spokesman about gyros when people ask about my aircraft, and only get unsociable when I am prepping to fly, and try to tell people that so they are not turned off. Can all of you experienced gyro pilots that attend fly-ins say you try to spend time every day helping the possible newbie? I attended Mentone in 1998 when I started getting into gyros, it was obvious to me that it was a closed group of gyro pilots that didn't want to go out of there way to associate with non gyro pilots. I found it was not a great way to build membership or interest in the sport. I had traveled 2,000 miles to Mentone to watch the activities, and was almost immediately yelled at by some dumb-cluck who thought I had not paid daily admission when I was trying to pay annual membership dues while in the PRA office!). Welcome to the PRA......such a friendly welcome committee you guys put on.....

Scott Heger,Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH



.

 

[gyroplanes]

Do we really want to see the PRA grow???????

Do we really want to see the PRA grow???????

I am encouraged by this thread and very happy to see the positive posts here.

We need to do a few things if we are serious about growing the PRA.

We need to re-examine the need for a PRA. If there is one, we need to fill it.

Ron is right, I'd rather have a bunch of members at $10.00 each, then a few at $50. each. If I were a BOD member, I would have voted down a due increase and pushed for more memberships.

 

[gyroplanes]

We need to "get out there"

We need to "get out there"

LOCAL
Here are a few proven ideas that work.

Put a "Dog & Pony" show together. Go to EAA.ORG, cut & paste the e-mail addys of the chapters near you. E-mail them an offer to speak about sport gyroplanes & helicopters at their meeting. Chuck Roberg and I did just that, we could have done 50 of them.

We put together a PowerPoint presentation, they supplied the projector (and our dinners) I was offered gas money many times. Chuck drove up to Wisconsin to speak to a group. They love it.

We probably averaged one or two new members for every visit. Sometimes it takes a while to see them though, so don't get discouraged.

You can spread the word and end mis-conceptions about our sport.

 

[gyroplanes]

Getting "out there"

Getting "out there"

Regional
Air shows, Safety Seminars, Car Shows,
Gyros often "steal the show". I had a fellow worker that hit up on every woman he saw. He liked to tell me "you never know where your next @%*& will come from". He got rejected a lot, but he also smiled a lot.

1) Gyros invade the ASC's annual convention. I believe we were very well welcomed. The gyro flights drew the biggest crowds (other than the competitions). Mich, IL, and In. gyro folks participated.

2) State DOT light plane safety seminar. Stan Foster brought his RAF, Adam and Nick brought their 'Bee. PRA Chapter 18 brought videos and membership forms.

3) Gyros have wheels, right? So we entered in the "World of Wheels" show in Chicago. Chicago TV spent more time on the gyros than any car or motorcycle. We had a good spot near NASCAR legend Ned Jarrett and Spiderman.

 

[gyroplanes]

What was missing at Wauchula?

What was missing at Wauchula?

It was also missing at Mentone as well.

The PRA spirit. I used to see nearly everyone wearing something PRA at the major events. Not any more.

Ever been to Oshkosh? You will see the letters EAA several million times... everywhere.

Don't let the PRA go to the dogs.

 

[gyroplanes]

What else was missing?

What else was missing?

The welcome to ... join us here booth.

Here is the proposal I made to the BOD at Wauchula:

PRA acquires a "table topper" or two. They are completely portable and UPS-able. They are kept at HQ. They run around $1200.

Any chapter that wants to promote the PRA and their chapter, can use the display at a local event and UPS it back.

Can the PRA afford it? (I bet we could raise enough money here on the forum to buy one. What do you think?)

Do these displays work?

Ask these guys.

 

[Resasi]

Would have worked for me at Wauchula. Nice eye-catching display to lure me over, affordable membership fee, possibly a nice cap with the membership fee (build in the cost of the cap with the fee, it's an immediate benefit that creates further advertising/promotion.)

Even though I am not resident, could have gone for that. (Might not have gone for Red Tom, but different colors could be available.)

 

[StanFoster]

Tom: I thought your table top idea was a fantastic one. Plus if we had a half a dozen people like you with your presentation skills...this would turn around quickly. You have always been in it for the long haul and still show the enthusiasm we all need!:hail:


Stan

 

[GyroRon]

In our chapter, nearly all of our money was going to publishing and mailing out our newsletter. At the end there was almost nothing left for anything else. Matter of fact we were concerned we wouldn't even have enough money to be able to have our Wrens fly-in this fall.

I am not sure of the money situation at the PRA, but I believe the Magazine is eating up nearly all of the incoming money, and to be able to keep putting out that magazine with less and less members, the magazine has been slimmed down and sent out less often to the point where it almost a joke as far as lack of content.

If I were on the board, the highest priority I would have is to get rid of the Paper magazine, and have Rick put out the magazine on the website and let Rick do it Monthly and let him fill it up with more content.

( all too often when someone complains about lack of content in the magazine, the answer is for more people to submit articles. If Rick needed more articles he could post here that he needs more articles. The problem is not a lack of articles, it is that the PRA board has limited the amount of space in the magazine for articles and there isn't room inside but for 2-4 articles, plus the Ads. )

 

[Bumperdog]

Bumperdog

Bumperdog

Hello,
I would like to say something about the PRA and I hope it don't come off like I'm beating up on the PRA but I gotta tell you that todays Pra is nothing like what it used to be like and that is why I droped out years ago. When I found out about Gyrocopters in the early 70's I knew right away that this was what I wanted to do. If you wanted to fly a Gyro back then you were on your own. The only help was a book or find someone who had a Gyro and could fly it to show you how.
I joined the pra because it was the only place that you could go to meet all the other gyro people, this was the place to go and learn how to fly. One time in Ohio there was 200 Gyro's there and the guys that flew would do all they could to help the new people. It was a place where everybody shared and we all had a great time.
This went on for many years and then it slowely began to change from a members convention into a vendors convention, and now they wanted paid for everything. We used to warn everybody that the FAA might be comming and now they invited them to be there. Then they said if you don't know how to fly you can't go out on the runway. I knew how to fly by then but I didn't like having to prove it or have somewone vouch for me.
Every few years I still go out to Mentone but I get discusted and leave right away. Well I said my peace and may be its just me not liking the way things are today, not only the pra but everything.
Bruce

 

[Mike Schallmann]

Chapter 15 has approximately 15 members. The annual dues are $15. Out of that money I publish and mail out a monthly newsletter. In reality the dues only cover the newsletter. There is no money left over for other activities. Twice a year we have a "dinner" I spring for the main dish -- A large pot of Chili or Tacos or sometimes Chicken -other members bring side dishes. When we first started this a lot of people came --but it has now dwindled off -so Im not going to do it again. I was spending a couple of hundred bucks a year to support a club with 12 members and only two of us usually brought a gyro--
Ive been president of this club for about 8yrs now --Im tired of trying to improve membership and participation --if somebody wants to take over this thankless job -they can have it--
Quite honestly the PRA hasnt done a thing for me --other than get a picture of my gyro in the magazine several times over the years--I get more bennies from my EAA membership -- a better magazine and the dues are lower--

Im not even sure the PRA is needed --we will NEVER be accecpted into mainstream AVIATION --in reality all it is a club -with an airport that few will ever see much less use--a crappy magazine and no support for the local chapters--

As for the idea about an Airport for the San Diego upstart group. Think about it --if an airport was such magnet -- the PRA Airport in Mentone would be a bustle of Rotorwing activity-- from what I understand --its NOT --its more like a private airport for the members who live in the area---

The bottom line is that we are a bunch of cheap bas***ds.

I love to fly gyros and I'll keep doing that --but my membership in the PRA is something I have to FORCE myself to do annually-- it shouldnt be that way --but it is

About the corporation--PRA is supposidly non profit --well then there should be NOTHING secret about it --(save employee performance reviews). There is no reason to discusss financial matters of individuals --however the financial matters of business relating to the PRA are fair game --If a business that advertises in the magazine is known to be in fianicial straights --then it is the members right to know this --we are the PRA afterall ( at least thats what we have been told) and before we plunk down hard cash for a product advertised in the magazine it would be nice to know if we had a reasonably expectation to get it --before they went out of business

It has been my experience that organizations that have "secrets" from its members --or from the general public for that matter are simply trying to maintain control and excercise power over others-- this is not what we should be about---

 

[barnstorm2]

If I were on the board, the highest priority I would have is to get rid of the Paper magazine, and have Rick put out the magazine on the website and let Rick do it Monthly and let him fill it up with more content.

I think the idea of canning the mag entirely is a bad one.

Reason:

The age group of PRA membership is skewed to the older set many of whom do NOT have internet access.

However, I do support the ability to opt out of the paper version of the magazine.

I was under the impression that a plan was in effect to publish the magazine in an expanded digital form on the PRA website to members only.

Does anyone know if this plan was approved?

.

 

[Heron]

it will cost me an extra dollar or two to print for a friend when needed.
12 eletronic issues and 8 paper issues including callendar and the year catalog.
They will be ticker and better edited a keeper by all means.
Little booklet for promotion will not cost much to put toghether, including a DVD with videos and presentation for lectures and demos.
All of those will be a product PRA can sell with little profit, cost will go down, numbers will go up.
Another line products: PRA = $25 Chapter = $25 and mag = $25 = 75 on credit card or paid $30 each separate. EAA, AOPA, ASC, etc memberships and magazines sold on our site (x% comission to PRA)
Link our site to Spruce and get some %$$$ it is easy to do.
Many outlets are rigged to do that and the cost to us will be small . . .comissions comissions . . .
Anytime someone comes here and displays discontent you can read: I want us to do better . . .(I don see anyone here voting to close PRA) it is about improvement and sometimes the speaker is frustrated or does not have good communication skills (or like me are cinic, ironic, devil's advocate or plain pain in the neck)
Heron

 

[All_In]

@Scott
“If you get a paved landing area in San Diego county, the gyros will fly and show up for a event. Me included.”

Sorry Scott, at first they won’t be paved, going for volume over quality because year-to-year leases with private landowners ‘can change rather quickly’ and can’t afford to put permanent leasehold improvements on temporary property.

Also the Events I was asking all of you to show up and display for are Major events where they already have between 5000 and 50,000 people in a cross market to promote our sport to.

Why ask or pay Gyroheads to spent their ‘time’ on small meetings when you can sign up from 1/10% to 1% of a large 10,000 member cross market group.

I’m asking you guys to show up and perform for event like the Red Bull races and the Baja 1000 and the Baja Ha, Ha sailboat race = huge crowds where you really get the biggest bang for your buck and time!!

Hope to be at your six, soon,
John

 

[All_In]

The welcome to ... join us here booth.

Here is the proposal I made to the BOD at Wauchula:

PRA acquires a "table topper" or two. They are completely portable and UPS-able. They are kept at HQ. They run around $1200.

Any chapter that wants to promote the PRA and their chapter, can use the display at a local event and UPS it back.

Can the PRA afford it? (I bet we could raise enough money here on the forum to buy one. What do you think?)

Do these displays work?

Ask these guys.

Yes every successful company are using these at least at conventions. But we can start with no money by using what we have. I would try a drag a real Gyro into the room, if I could at first. Much better than paper and also show many clips of the videos posted here to show what they really could use them for.

My marketing plan for San Diego will spell this all out!

Also think of the larger events that we all have in our locality's like tractor pulls, big truck meets, local fairs, and (Cars shows =Think Tim mentioned)!

Way to think and go Tom!!!
John

 

[gyroplanes]

Gyro fields of dreams

Gyro fields of dreams

@Scott
“If you get a paved landing area in San Diego county, the gyros will fly and show up for a event. Me included.”

Sorry Scott, at first they won’t be paved, going for volume over quality because year-to-year leases with private landowners ‘can change rather quickly’ and can’t afford to put permanent leasehold improvements on temporary property.


John

Our chapter, one of the PRA's largest at times, got it's own leased runway & hangar, on a farm. It was, without a doubt, the biggest and best thing our club has ever done. Urban sprawl took it away from us. It's now an Islamic Mosque & retreat.

 

[gyroplanes]

Way to think and go Tom!!!
John

Thanks John,
I love your enthusiasm. I have been banging this drum for years. I just now realize that I should have just gone out and bought a display for the PRA, it would have been a lot less frustrating.

 

[barnstorm2]

Then they said if you don't know how to fly you can't go out on the runway. I knew how to fly by then but I didn't like having to prove it or have somewone vouch for me.

I don't mean to sound harsh Bumper D, but this is a very basic safety issue. A wreak at a convention ruins alot of the hard work and positive feeling of this event that hundreds of us look forward too all year.

I appreciate the efforts the airbosses go through at the convention to keep ALL of us safe.

It is not a hard system. If you are a competent pilot you should have no problem getting a CFI to vouch for you. If you don't feel confident enough in your flying to ask someone to vouch for you then yes, you should NOT be flying at this busy public event for your safety and ours!

Don't be shy, contact a CFI and get checked out. It is great fun to fly with other gyro and heli pilots at the convention. We have a great time around the patch and even some short cross countries.

If you don't like to buy from the vendors, pack your lunch.

Im not even sure the PRA is needed --we will NEVER be accecpted into mainstream AVIATION ---

Mike, that is one of the reasons we need the PRA. No one else gives a S#$& about us. The PRA IS recognised by the FAA and the outside world and when needed the PRA is there to support our cause. I guarantee you the EAA will NOT go to bat for us.

I don't think you understand the purpose and advantages of the airport.

We basically bought an office and got an airport with it for free that is now a revenue source, guarantees a safe stable place for conventions that we can't be kicked out of and adds long term stability to the org.

I don't hear EAA members complaining about the purchase of buildings at Oshkosh, the purchase of the huge money-pit the aluminum overcast or other aviation money-pits that 99% of EAA members will never use.

The bottom line is that we are a bunch of cheap bas***ds.
---

Agreed!

Outside of a fancier magazine what other benefits do you get from the EAA that you consider critical to your membership?

When I renewed my eaa membership it was about the same price as my PRA membership.

When I read the EAA magazine I read maybe 1 article and few ads if any are products I can use with my gyroplane.

Sure the PRA mag is not as spiffy but I read EVERY article because they do pertain to my sport and the ads are products I might use or at least apply to my hobby.

.

 

[gyroplanes]

Helpin Scott understand.

Helpin Scott understand.

John,
"
The last great "feat" of the PRA was the FAA 5209 flight training exemption allowing training in uncertificated aircraft.

Other than buying and including paying $60,000 for paving Mentone airport that most PRA members will never use with membership dues, not much has gotten done over the last two decades.

I had traveled 2,000 miles to Mentone to watch the activities, and was almost immediately yelled at by some dumb-cluck who thought I had not paid daily admission when I was trying to pay annual membership dues while in the PRA office!). Welcome to the PRA......such a friendly welcome committee you guys put on.....

Scott Heger,Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH

.

Hi Scott,
All valid points, but a little off base.

The PRA's "last great feat"
Was, in my opinion, getting gyroplanes included in Light Sport (albiet, temporarily) At least we are still in the game. LSA could help us a lot.

The "AIRPORT"
I have noticed ath the amount of complaining about the PRA Mentone airport gets louder and more frequent the farther from the airport you go. I don't know why, as it benefits all of us equally. Maybe I'd understand this better if I didn't live "only" 96 miles away.

Keep a clear head and try to imagine the airport as what it really is... our office. You can't rent a decent office for $1000. a month around here. Our "office" is tax free, has hangar, fuel (formerly) and crop land income. (and we have the added bonus of a first class convention site. That's better than Oshkosh)

The re-paving cost the airport less than you think (the former owner had money in escrow to help defray the cost) and it was not paid for by dues money. The PRA Mentone airport is now worth nearly triple what we paid for it. The PRA Mentone airport is an asset that could be producing much more money and supporting the organization. All we need is a volunteer to market the place. How about it?

Scott's "welcome" to Mentone
I hate it when stuff like this happens to me too. First impressions mean a lot (obvious in you case. how many years has it been?)

You were probably greeted by one of the outsourced volunteers, a local scout, church or museum volunteer that was helping their organization by standing outside all day and directing strangers. We really have a hard time controlling their disposition.

I'd guess you've never been to Oshkosh or Sun 'N Fun. You get snarled at by EAA volunteers and security guards on a regular basis at these fly-ins.

And my favorite quote "Welcome to the PRA......such a friendly welcome committee you guys put on....."
If you were a PRA member, you were one of those "guys". I know you didn't come 2,000 miles to work. But if something YOU are a part of is broken, you could help try to fix it.