First Xenon 4 is registered in Canada

[CelierAviation]

First Xenon 4 is registered in Canada

Celier Aviation proudly declares that the first Xenon 4 gyroplane has been registered in Canada. We wish gentle breezes to our dealer and happy owners Jim and Brenda. This is yet another milestone in our roadmap. For viewing in Canada please contact:

Jim and Brenda
Teeter Bolt Aviation Canada Inc.
34 Ann St.
Georgetown ON. L7G 2V2
Canada
Mail: [email protected] or Teeter Bolt [email protected]

More information at:
http://celieraviation.com/news.html

 

[1Badbaby]

Good Day,

Has there been any Dealer interest expressed in British Columbia?

 

[Brent Drake]

I live the Xenon. I hope they send more to the USA.

 

[Steve_UK]

The Canadian example had a prang. Hopefully repaired.

 

[Brent Drake]

Xenon,
Please take a closer look at your warranty and do whats right. Your reputation in America depends on it. You have a very nice machine. It would be very poor business not to stand behind it.

 

[chrisk]

Xenon,
Please take a closer look at your warranty and do whats right. Your reputation in America depends on it. You have a very nice machine. It would be very poor business not to stand behind it.

I assume you are referring to this one: http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/gyrocopter-loses-power-makes-safe-landing-in-field-1.2909452

If you ever get a chance to visit Kitchener ON, they have several gyros there. I believe they provide instruction too. I recall they had an enclosed DTA, a Magni or two, and the Xenon above. I met the owner of the Xenon and he seemed like a really nice guy. Unfortunately I only had less than an hour to visit.

 

[Brent Drake]

Chrisk, yes this has happened several times. I had to set one down last summer back on the runway for the same reason. I know of several this has happened to. The exhaust is cracking right below the turbos. Shooting hot exhaust right on the turbo case itself. Xenon is demanding to see the turbos, then refusing to do anything. It's costing $500 to shop an old one to Xenon. Xenon is refusing to repair the exhaust or replace the turbo. Two had less than 20 hours on them. Xenon put these turbos on without Rotax consent. Thus Rotax refuses any warranty of any time. I think this should be done by Xenon since it's their design and product.
The xenon owners I know have tried to take care of the privately through letter, calls, and emails. In my opinion it's time to let others know how Xenon is treat it's United States owners.

 

[Abid]

So why do the customers who knew they are getting a modified engine thought that they would get anything from Rotax? That does not make any sense. You give a company an excuse to get out of warranty or liability, why wouldn't they? Also this is a very valid and big excuse anyway. The engine is no longer a Rotax engine and if the supplier is not going to provide warranty, parts or support it should be amply clear that engine is an orphan.

 

[Steve_UK]

Xenon is not a manufacturer, it is a model product. As there are two manufacturers producing similar machines which manufacturer are you referring to?

 

[Steve_UK]

We had this thread recently too - it's a shame the original poster has never got back to us


http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46763&highlight=xenon

 

[Brent Drake]

Thanks Steve. I read the post. I have know idea what is going on. I do know that Chris Lord is an asset to our community. I feel Chris got out and knew long before us what was starting to happen. Chris has always done what is right.

 

[ventana7]

Raphael Celier who designed the Xenon and is producing the current Xenons is a serial liar thief and cheat. He has a long track record of ripping people off and has been through dozens of dealers/distributors around the world who will no longer work with him. No doubt with the departure of Chris Lord he will be looking for a new US distributor - hopefully no one will be his next victim here in the US.

The earlier Xenons were made in Poland by Artur Trendak (Raphael's former partner) and parts for those Xenons and full support are available from Artur. The majority of the US Xenons are of that type and support is available.

The turbocharged Rotax engines made by Trendak and on the earlier Xenons have had very few problems.

The gyros now being sold as the Trendak Tercel are a slightly updated version of the original Xenons.

The gyros now being sold as Xenon are by Raphael Celier and should be avoided.

 

[ventana7]

So why do the customers who knew they are getting a modified engine thought that they would get anything from Rotax? That does not make any sense. You give a company an excuse to get out of warranty or liability, why wouldn't they? Also this is a very valid and big excuse anyway. The engine is no longer a Rotax engine and if the supplier is not going to provide warranty, parts or support it should be amply clear that engine is an orphan.

Abid when I first imported the Xenons with the aftermarket turbos installed. I had extensive discussions with Rotax and with Lockwood about warranty issues. Lockwood agreed to do warranty work on any engine problem that they felt was not caused by the turbo. Granted this did leave a large grey area and left it up to their determination but the offer was pretty magnanimous as they could have denied everything.

Fortunately we did not have any warranty issues that tested Lockwood's offer.

We had two brand new machines that Celier had put the incorrect gear shims on when they did the mod. (They were still learning) Even then Raphael was a weasel and did not cover it, so as the US importer I paid Lockwood to change the shims out of my own pocket.

Of those first 10 machines the ONLY actual Rotax warranty issue we had was a failed turbo on the one 914 machine. Rotax covered that no problem.

Rob

 

[ventana7]

Xenon is not a manufacturer, it is a model product. As there are two manufacturers producing similar machines which manufacturer are you referring to?

Steve I am sure you know this but to clarify for others who may not.

Raphael Celier and Artur Trendak were partners and produced the original Xenons together in a factory in Poland. Raphael is very dishonest and created many problems with distributors and owners so eventually Artur who owned the factory kicked him out. Artur continued to make the same gyros but changed the name to the Trendak Tercel.

Artur overcame his growing pains and the bad environment Raphael had created and continues to make Tercels and to support all the original Xenons.

Meanwhile Raphael moved on keeping the Xenon name. He made a few Xenons in several different factories before cheating and getting kicked out of each one along the way. From posts here it sounds like he continues to not honor his warranties.

In light of that it would seem wise to keep clear of the new Xenon gyros.

The older Xenon gyros (pre 2010) and the current Tercels are excellent products with good factory support.

Rob

 

[Brent_Brown]

http://www.flygyrotoday.com/
This website looks lake a US dealer for AAT. I never here anything about it. Is he selling gyros. If I hit the Lotto I would get a Tercel

 

[Brent Drake]

Guys, Xenon is putting on an aftermarket turbo made by Mitsubishi. Which is not approved by Rotax. I guessing they are doing this to prevent them from paying the higher price for the 914 turbo. This model is 912 which is a non turbo model.

 

[Abid]

Abid when I first imported the Xenons with the aftermarket turbos installed. I had extensive discussions with Rotax and with Lockwood about warranty issues. Lockwood agreed to do warranty work on any engine problem that they felt was not caused by the turbo. Granted this did leave a large grey area and left it up to their determination but the offer was pretty magnanimous as they could have denied everything.

Fortunately we did not have any warranty issues that tested Lockwood's offer.

We had two brand new machines that Celier had put the incorrect gear shims on when they did the mod. (They were still learning) Even then Raphael was a weasel and did not cover it, so as the US importer I paid Lockwood to change the shims out of my own pocket.

Of those first 10 machines the ONLY actual Rotax warranty issue we had was a failed turbo on the one 914 machine. Rotax covered that no problem.

Rob

Rob you were lucky and they were being very nice. Rotax does not have to cover anything on such an engine. The engines on those Xenons were also 125 HP and they were based on 912UL (80 HP). These new ones are based on 912ULS (100 HP) higher compression engines and are said to be 135 HP.

Here is the main issue. In 2010 sometime Rotax upgraded the crankcase and raised the TBO from 1500 to 2000 hours. Crank case especially in before 2008 had sometimes a fretting issue.

The crankshaft on a 91X series is press fit like a 2-stroke. If you do not weld it, trying to push out anything above 115 HP is not conservative. That is the weakest structural point. Trying to push out 135 HP out of it without welding it, is almost guaranteed to have problems in even shorter time.

There is a company in Norway that does this conversion to fuel injected 145 HP Rotax 912ULS. But they among other things weld the crankshaft. I researched this quite a bit. I decided to stick with 914UL Turbo 115 HP. If I did go higher HP, I would definitely weld the crankshaft. You can possibly get away with a little more HP (like 120 HP) without doing it but not too much more. Then you are just playing a numbers game. Beyond that one can always lose some weight. Would be good both for performance and one's health. Doing these changes is a bit of a chance. I hopefully will be working on a side by side and I do want more power for it and it will come in the form of an American engine that has been proven design well before Rotax for that higher HP.

 

[Abid]

http://www.flygyrotoday.com/
This website looks lake a US dealer for AAT. I never here anything about it. Is he selling gyros. If I hit the Lotto I would get a Tercel

Ashton used to be an Autogyro dealer. He still has an MTO Sport 914 with 300 hours that he is trying to sell.
He has a Tercel that is Experimental Exhibition that he is in the process of flying Phase-I off and I think he already has a buyer for it.

 

[ventana7]

Rob you were lucky and they were being very nice. Rotax does not have to cover anything on such an engine. The engines on those Xenons were also 125 HP and they were based on 912UL (80 HP). These new ones are based on 912ULS (100 HP) higher compression engines and are said to be 135 HP.

Here is the main issue. In 2010 sometime Rotax upgraded the crankcase and raised the TBO from 1500 to 2000 hours. Crank case especially in before 2008 had sometimes a fretting issue.

The crankshaft on a 91X series is press fit like a 2-stroke. If you do not weld it, trying to push out anything above 115 HP is not conservative. That is the weakest structural point. Trying to push out 135 HP out of it without welding it, is almost guaranteed to have problems in even shorter time.

There is a company in Norway that does this conversion to fuel injected 145 HP Rotax 912ULS. But they among other things weld the crankshaft. I researched this quite a bit. I decided to stick with 914UL Turbo 115 HP. If I did go higher HP, I would definitely weld the crankshaft. You can possibly get away with a little more HP (like 120 HP) without doing it but not too much more. Then you are just playing a numbers game. Beyond that one can always lose some weight. Would be good both for performance and one's health. Doing these changes is a bit of a chance. I hopefully will be working on a side by side and I do want more power for it and it will come in the form of an American engine that has been proven design well before Rotax for that higher HP.

Abid you are correct that Lockwood was being very nice to say they would cover us. And I was glad we never had to put it to the test with any warranty claims.

The generation of these that were sold in 2007-2009 were rated at 122 HP and a bunch of those have hit TBO and beyond with no problems.

I changed mine from the turbo controller and Raphael's mickey mouse arrangement of 15-30 washers on the actuator arm to a vernier controlled wastegate. It is now a much better system and I can dial any MP up to a max of 41" even here in Colorado at 10,000' MSL.

Rob

 

[ventana7]

Guys, Xenon is putting on an aftermarket turbo made by Mitsubishi. Which is not approved by Rotax. I guessing they are doing this to prevent them from paying the higher price for the 914 turbo. This model is 912 which is a non turbo model.

Brent I think the system on my Xenon with the Mitsubishi turbo and a fully controllable wastegate I added is superior to the 914. Only 7 more HP but that is 122 HP full time not just 3 minutes and I can dial in any manifold pressure I want up to a max of 41"- so it is really turbonormalized. I often fly at 10,000' MSL.