cross wind landing in a tractor gyro?

[SandL]

I was looking at the polish accident and have heard that a tractor gyro has some directional control issues at low airspeed and low throttle setting.
with all that in mind is it possible to land a tractor in a cross wind without wrapping it up ?
if it is possible can anyone describe the technique please

( I have no tractor nor will I ever have one as there are non approved in the UK I am just interested.)
Thanks Peter

 

[ultracruiser41]

a tractor gyro is about the same as a FW taildragger. you can ground loop one!

 

[Phenix5]

A tractor gyro doesn´t necessarily have to be a tail dragger, you can´t ground loop a tricycle geared one.

 

[ultracruiser41]

so......was the question posted about a taildragger tractor gyro which there are several copies flying or a trigear gyro of which there are only a few?

my comment was based on the more popular little wing tractors or even the Pitcairins...not an in-developement prototype.

 

[WaspAir]

I would suggest pointing it into the wind.

In aircraft that need so little room (with such short landing roll) as gyros, one shouldn't have to worry much about "crosswinds", because you can redirect your landing path to remove the cross component.

 

[DennisFetters]

It's probably not a ground-loop situation. In this style of gyro or autogiro the problem comes from the tail being so far away from the propeller. When the gyro yaws or encounters a side-wind, the wash off the propeller is directed off the tail, loosing directional control, then the propellers P-factor will yaw the airframe further around into a spin when loosing all stabilizer control.

To recover, you reduce power and nose over to gain airspeed and flow over the rudder and power-up to resume flight....... if you have enough altitude, that is.....

Many of the old autogiros met with this design characteristic and crashed.

Those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

 

[SandL]

Well my question on technique was really about tail dragger tractors, I was watching some old movie film , I noticed how far away the prop wash was and how slowly they approached to land, then noticed the size of the tail. in those days they could almost always land into wind on a large grass field. these days most airfield operators like to have their aircraft in a neat square pattern and all landing in the same direction on a hard runway or parallel grass strip for those with tail skids. A friend has a Europa mono wheel (single central main gear and 2 wing tip outriggers) it also has a short tail fin, when landing cross wind (and after touchdown) it becomes a real hand full as he loses all rudder authority whilst still moving quite quickly and the cross wind takes over.
so looking at early gyros they too have short tail fins and so I guess could also loose rudder authority after landing cross wind. in the Europa at least the outrigger helps to prevent the wing tip hitting, but in a gyro the results of a tip over are of course catastrophic. I just wondered if a technique had been developed, or is it a case of "just don't do it" ?
most Europas have now been upgraded to tri gear
just curious

 

[WaspAir]

It doesn't take a big grass field to land into the wind -- you only need to adjust your angle on final after fitting in to a conventional pattern. I land all the time on paved strips but just not parallel to the center line. If you don't roll far, you will still remain within the confines of the pavement, and the stronger the crosswind is, the less room you need. I touch down with very little speed, unlike the Europa, and the rest from that point on is really just a "taxi", not a "rollout".

The early autogiros with ailerons had trouble at low speed because they lost roll authority when slow. At least one of the classics (the C.30?) had no rudder, and that made difficulties with tricky winds.

 

[SandL]

ahhh yes roll control, of course nasty, I do land my bensen cross runway when needed, but have to take care if the close by parallel grass strip is active. no roll control and or no rudder leaves little options. gets me thinking. As air speed drops and a wing lifts I can just imagine the large stick movements needed, talk about non-linier controls, what a hand full !

 

[Steve_UK]

Adjacent related question - how many tractor gyros are active flyers ? My guess is very few, a micro slice of the small gyro pie but any insight would be welcome.

 

[Doug Riley]

A taildragger gyro having direct cyclic (not ailerons) has a unique quirk. Adverse roll-yaw coupling suddenly appears when the main wheels touch the ground with the tailwheel off or freely castering.

The center of the rotor, like the CG, is behind the wheels. Therefore, creating lateral thrust with the rotor (by tipping it to the side) will also pull the tail to the side when the mains become the pivot point. This yaw will be in the OPPOSITE direction to the roll that you'd get if the aircraft were off the ground -- e.g. left stick produces a right yaw along with left roll.

No doubt you can learn to "play" this effect to your advantage if you are really sharp but, as an ordinary mortal, I'd try to land into the wind, even if that means setting down at an angle to the runway centerline.

Back in the 30's, pilots who tried to fly taildragger gyros like airplanes, doing run-on landings, tended to come to grief, while the gyro experts like Johnny Miller preferred to plunk them down at near-zero airspeed. In some interviews, Johnny was rather critical of poor old Amelia in this regard.