Are gyros really safer?

[Udi]

Todd - the reason we promote stable gyros so much is because stable gyros react automatically in a corrective way to loading and airspeed upsets. Your gyro - being a stable one - will pitch nose up automatically to regain loading if you were to enter a strong down draft. The magnitude of a downdraft that will cause your dragon wings to slow down to an unrecoverable RPM is almost unimaginable (remember that gravity is working in your favor). Of course you don't want to have a zero-inertia rotors but Ernie did a lot of testing to optimize the inertia of the DWs.

Udi

 

[birdy]

Any more questions
Thanks Udi, iv finaly got the answer i was after.
Theres 2 ways the butterfly valves can be riged ona 912.
One way, the way they recomended from the factory, is for the cable to pull the butterfly closed, with a spring opening it for full throttle.
The other is opposite, the cable pulls it open, with the spring to shut it.
If it is setup as per the manual, a cable failure will have the carb instantly go to WOT.
Now, iv finaly just seen a pic of Kens gyro and yes, he had the factory setup.

Readn sum of his older posts, i wouldnt have said he was the most confident/relaxed pilot, so you could imagine his supprise if a cable broke, while landn in rough air..........

Now, all we need to know is wot state these cables were in after the bingle.

Of all iv seen n read bout Kens' accident, sumthn as simple as throttle cable failure at the rong time would have his gyro do zactly as his did.
How else would it have the energy to flip inverted from near 0 AS?

If the cables are still intact, ill shutup, and itll remain a mistery, and blokes like Mistral will [rightly] keep askn this same question.

 

[birdy]

A prw will gently descend and if You want to stop descent just pull the stick (= enlarge AOA = lift at the cost of forward speed)
Angelo, dont let the gyro lull you into a false sence of superiority.
You above description is for gentle down drafts only. If you fly into a 2000 + FPM downer, theres nuthn gentle bout it, and WOT with backstick will only slow your cannonball decent rate, not stop it.

 

[Udi]

...How else would it have the energy to flip inverted from near 0 AS?...

I'll tell you how.

Ken is coming in for landing in gusting/shifting winds. He is not particularly relaxed on the stick, as we know. Just as he is starting his landing flare a 90° gust is hitting from left or right, yawing his gyro almost 90° to the runway. Ken knows what happens if he touches down like that -- he rolls. So, what does he do? He does the only thing every pilot is taught - add full power and go around. Now you have some energy!

He opens the 912 full bore. As we know from his posts that I referenced above - the rolling torque of his 912 is significant, trying to roll him over. All he needs to do now to get flipped over by the engine now is add full rudder to the wrong direction (he is still trying to align with the runway), which is causing a slip and a rolling moment due to the side air flow, add some fwd stick because the nose is too high or something and over she goes.

This is exactly what happened to our friend in Germany a couple of weeks ago in his MT03 - but he was lucky - he had enough altitude (and luck) to recover.

The only way a gyro can flip over in such low altitude is with engine torque. The rotor is not capable of flipping the gyro over in such short distance. Engine torque (applied by the pilot - no torn cables), combined with uncoordinated flight and unloading of the rotor is the combination that will do it.

Udi

 

[birdy]

Interesting story udi.

Now, to break it down.

He does the only thing every pilot is taught - add full power and go around. Now you have some energy!
At this point, your only 'adding' energy to the machine.
He hasnt got much yet in the way of kinetic energy coz the AS is low and the rrpm is decreasing.


All he needs to do now to get flipped over by the engine now is add full rudder to the wrong direction
Why anyone would think Ken woulda stood on either rudder to correct roll is beyond me.

he is still trying to align with the runway
Id say, in that situation, stayn uprite would be the first natural priority, not line'n up the runway.

add some fwd stick because the nose is too high or something and over she goes.
Didnt 'she' go over backwards??

The rotor is not capable of flipping the gyro over in such short distance.
I agree.

Engine torque (applied by the pilot - no torn cables
Why not the cables???
If my machine was rearing up and lookn like go'n over backwards, or sideways for that matter, natural reactions would have the throttle claped shut pronto.
But, wot if i had no carb control?
Thered be no time to reach for the kill switch in that situation.
And haven the carbs riged as Ken did, itd be stuck on WOT if the cables broke.

 

[Udi]

Didnt 'she' go over backwards??

I don't buy that little bit of the witness story. Remember that the witnesses were sitting in the FOB office half a mile away.

Why not the cables???

Because that would be too much of a coincidence - too far fetched. You have to look for the simple explanations, not the one in a million freak accident ones.

If my machine was rearing up and lookn like go'n over backwards, or sideways for that matter, natural reactions would have the throttle claped shut pronto.

But this was NOT you Birdy - and I don't think Ken was facing winds that you wouldn't be able to fly and land in with one hand tied behind your back.

Since this discussion is taking place in a thread that asks whether gyros are really safer - I would like to say that this accident is IMHO an example of a pilot that was flying outside of his abilities. Gyros are easier to fly in gusting winds than ultralights, trikes and PPCs but they are not bullet proof. A pilot must have skills adequate for the conditions he is flying in.

Udi

 

[[email protected]]

You above description is for gentle down drafts only. If you fly into a 2000 + FPM downer, theres nuthn gentle bout it, and WOT with backstick will only slow your cannonball decent rate, not stop it.

Hi Birdy !

Of course You are right in THIS case, BUT: in this sit add slowly gas and Your descent will even get slower if not stopped at all but in any case gives You the chance of a safe landing instead of a crash supposed You don´t get out of the downdraft.

It was just a realistic example. If You fly Your gyro in a "Kathrina"-Hurricane You will die anyway no matter if on the ground w/o gyro or in the air........

So let´s speak about superior safety of a gyro to other airplane-types and NOT about ABSOLUTE safety........

"There is only one absolute safety in life: that every beeing will die when time has come" as we say in Austria.

Have fun in the air

Anelo

 

[ckurz7000]

Angelo,

there are two things with very different effect to consider when you experience a strong downdraft in mountainous terrain.

(1) The transient downdraft, where the draft hits you and your gyro is still more or less flying straight and level due to its inertia.

(2) The steady state in which the gyro has started to move downward with the air mass around it.

Your explanation of rotor AOA above addresses issue (1). But particularly in mountains, the downdraft condition can persist for much longer. After several seconds you will be in condition (2) with your rotor AOA pretty much stabilized again, and your gyro will be moving downward along with the airmass surrounding it. To overcome this, your rate of descent must be greater than the downward speed of the air. The ability to overcome such conditions depends on two things: your airspeed (it determines how fast you'll be able to fly out of it) and your rate of climb (it determines how fast you'll sink in the process).

So, in a well designed and stable gyro I am not so much concerned about (1) but would worry quite a bit about (2). A FW aircraft with about the same climb rate as a gyro will have a better chance to outfly a severe mountain downdraft because it can fly out of it faster with less altitude lost.

Greetings, -- Chris.

 

[[email protected]]

Again apples are compared with pears:

Taken comparable flying vehicles (same MTOW, same Vtravel, same motor i.e. Rotax 912 or 914) the sit in my drawing is safer and easier to handle in a gyro than in a FW. In the worst case an emergency landing in this sit will be less fatal (if at all) with a gyro than with a COMPARABLE FW.

So whatever we discuss: let´s stick strictly to COMPARABLE flight devices otherwise the whole discussion doesn´t make any sense.

Angelo

 

[birdy]

I don't buy that little bit of the witness story. Remember that the witnesses were sitting in the FOB office half a mile away.
Granted, but he did see it, and we didnt.

Because that would be too much of a coincidence - too far fetched. not the one in a million freak accident ones.
Coincidence???? Realy??
Defeatest attitudes irritate me, no matter who has it.
An easy way to end this pointless argument would be for sumone to look at the integrity of the cables.
If they are broke, then its very likely that Ken was faced with an uncontrolable 912. If they aint broke, ill shutup.
Yes, its very likely they coulda broke BEFORE he lost control.
Think bout it, he woulda opened the throttle with vigure, and im still waitn for an answer to anatha question i asked ages ago, where was the throttle stopper?
Iv seen too many throttles setup where the point of resistance [ stopper] is the frign stopper on the carb. IOW, if you lean on the throttle handle hard enuff, you can break the cable, coz the handle isnt hitn a stopper,restricting the amount of tension you can apply to the cable. The 'stopper' should be at the throttle handle, not the carb.

You have to look for the simple explanations,
Like blamen the pilot???
Sure, he didnt handle the situation, but wot was he up against?

But this was NOT you Birdy
This f&^%$n attitude is startn to piss me off too.
Udi, youd be supprised just how 'in tune' you can be, in very little time, wen your ass is on the line.
My first bingle was 15 seconds into my first solo, and experiance didnt help then, coz i had nun.

I would like to say that this accident is IMHO an example of a pilot that was flying outside of his abilities.
You could well be rite Udi, but id like to be sure there wasnt sumthn there that woulda had most pilots do zactly the same, like an out of control 100hp unit.
Then people like Mistral would have a much clearer picture of the safty of gyros.


in this sit add slowly gas and Your descent will even get slower if not stopped at all
Yes, if its a gentle one.
If its a sudden 2000fpm downer, youll go neg G till you catch up with the decending air, and youll keep decending till you fly outa it, coz i havent heard of any gyros that can climb at 2000fpm. Yes, full power will slow the decent rate, but if your machine cant climb at 2000fpm or better, you go'n to keep go'n down.

So let´s speak about superior safety of a gyro to other airplane-types and NOT about ABSOLUTE safety........
I never said there was anythn unsafe bout it???

 

[[email protected]]

Yes Birdy !

Truth is always somewhere in the middle..........

A torn throttle-cable is absolutely the most stringent explanation. I had it numerous times on my bikes and thus inspected all connectors at preflight-check on the gyro every time AND lubricated the shaft as far as possible.

The throttle cables in a gyro are long and bent, the gyro stys in cold and sometimes humid hangars so with the time the cable gets worn.

For the severe sudden downdraft in YOUR example You´re also right but still: if I have to choose to live through it in a gyro or a FW I will always prefer the gyro.

Have fun in the air and fly safe

Angelo

 

[Udi]

Birdy - all of your questions are answered in the NTSB accident report:

On November 11, 2005, about 1705 central standard time, an experimental Rehler gyrocopter, N100KR,
was substantially damaged following a loss of control while on approach to Runway 13 at the New
Braunfels Municipal Airport, near New Braunfels, Texas. The private pilot/builder/owner, sole
occupant of the gyroplane, was fatally injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and no
flight plan was filed for the personal flight conducted under 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part
91. The local flight originated at the New Braunfels Airport at an undetermined time.
Several witnesses observed the gyrocopter as it descended and approached the runway. When the
gyrocopter was about 30 feet above the ground, a gust of wind turned the aircraft sideways, and the
gyrocopter "flipped inverted and impacted the runway on its main rotor system." Some of the
witnesses reported hearing the engine make a power change before ground impact.
A Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) inspector performed an on-scene examination of the
wreckage. The inspector established flight and engine control continuity and found fuel in the
fuel tank. No mechanical deficiencies or anomalies were noted.
The pilot designed and constructed the gyrocopter. According to his website, he described his
gyrocopter as a single-place, experimental aircraft powered by a 100 HP, four-cylinder, four- cycle
Rotax engine. The gyrocopter featured a 27-foot-diameter main rotor system, with a three-bladed,
68-inch-diameter propeller installed in the pusher configuration. The gyrocopter was reported to
be capable to cruise between 35 and 95 miles per hour.
The pilot's last FAA third class medical was issued on June 9, 2004. At that time, the pilot
reported a total of 700 flight hours. Toxicological testing was performed by the FAA's Accident
Research Laboratory, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.
Weather reported at the airport at 1751 was wind from 150 degrees at 12 knots, visibility 10
statute miles, broken clouds at 6,000 feet, overcast clouds at 7,000 feet, temperature 81 degrees
Fahrenheit, dew point 62 degrees Fahrenheit, and a barometric pressure setting of 29.97 inches of
Mercury.

Nowhere does it say the gyro flipped backwards - it just says the gyro flipped inverted.

Udi

 

[ckurz7000]

Again apples are compared with pears:

Taken comparable flying vehicles (same MTOW, same Vtravel, same motor i.e. Rotax 912 or 914) the sit in my drawing is safer and easier to handle in a gyro than in a FW. In the worst case an emergency landing in this sit will be less fatal (if at all) with a gyro than with a COMPARABLE FW.

So whatever we discuss: let´s stick strictly to COMPARABLE flight devices otherwise the whole discussion doesn´t make any sense.

Angelo

I am thinking of a Fascination, for example. This is a UL-FW (same MTOW) with a Rotax 912. Its cruise speed is somewhere above 130 mph and it climbs as well as the gyro. It can even be had for a similar price tag. Still, since I'm flying at least twice as fast in the Fascination, I will be out of the downdraft in half the time. Since I can climb as well as the gyro, the Fascination loses only half the height.

But still I think that gyros are safer aircraft. Just not in this particular example.

-- Chris.

 

[All_In]

It's not the amount of time that is the problem unless you have no altitude. It the wing loanding as Most FW ultralight's aren't composite fiber like the Fascination and would be grounded in turbulence because of the FW increase wing loading way before a gryo if we don't want to bend a spar.
I don't worry about engine outs in a FW ultralight I worry about turbulences and bending then breaking my main spare and wing off my plane!
Never had an engine out yet but have had to land twice on a road and a farmers field and wait for the weather to get back home because of turbulence!!
Gyro's are way safer than most FW ultralights I fly in wind and turbulence!

 

[[email protected]]

Gyros ARE safer in JUST THAT particular example. You may not leave out in Your calc that the downdraft works on FW-Fasci wings heavier than on the rotor-blades.

I´d propose: check it with XWING, you´ll see........... I did it.

 

[ckurz7000]

Gyros ARE safer in JUST THAT particular example. You may not leave out in Your calc that the downdraft works on FW-Fasci wings heavier than on the rotor-blades.

I´d propose: check it with XWING, you´ll see........... I did it.

... can't argue with someone's religion ...

-- Chris.

 

[landmann]

fifty fifty unrecoverable

fifty fifty unrecoverable

I had the chance to watch Joe Souza with his two place Bandit. He was alone in his two place trying this out just after a crash and burn of one of his machines due to water in the fuel.

For what it's worth, this is what he said after it was over. Taking off at 50mph if his engine quites suddenly at 50 ft or less there is no recovery. The sink rate is catastrophic. His Bandit had a Subaru engine.

Martin

 

[Passin' Thru]

I had the chance to watch Joe Souza with his two place Bandit. He was alone in his two place trying this out just after a crash and burn of one of his machines due to water in the fuel.

For what it's worth, this is what he said after it was over. Taking off at 50mph if his engine quites suddenly at 50 ft or less there is no recovery. The sink rate is catastrophic. His Bandit had a Subaru engine.

Martin

If that be true, then he has some other problems that need to be addressed!
Sounds like a lead sled that barely fly at best.
.

 

[birdy]

If that be true, then he has some other problems that need to be addressed!
Sounds like a lead sled that barely fly at best.
Like instruction.
Sounds like ol Joe has little idea of how to fly a gyro, or wot they can do.
Even a fat pig gyro is easily controled if the noise stops at 50' or less.

Nowhere does it say the gyro flipped backwards - it just says the gyro flipped inverted.
Maybe its a longo thing again Udi.
I read it as fliped over backwards.
If it went over sideways, i woulda thought they would say 'rolled'.

But, ill shutup now, coz as you pointed out, the controls were intact.

Thanx for you persistance.

 

[GyroDoug]

I had the chance to watch Joe Souza with his two place Bandit. He was alone in his two place trying this out just after a crash and burn of one of his machines due to water in the fuel.

For what it's worth, this is what he said after it was over. Taking off at 50mph if his engine quites suddenly at 50 ft or less there is no recovery. The sink rate is catastrophic. His Bandit had a Subaru engine.

Martin

Martin,

Sure sounds to me like a problem that could be solved with the G-Force landing gear available on the Butterfly line of Gyros.

Gyro Doug