where has all the Penzoil gone?

Rick Martin

Gold Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2004
Messages
2,162
Location
BRADENTON, FLORIDA & FL10
Aircraft
Everglades Kite Gyro, Tandem Dominator
Total Flight Time
900 hours
I guess by now many of you know that Shell bought Penzoil and has discontinued production of their "Air Cooled" 2 cycle oil in pint bottles. You know...the oil that Rotax recommends for our air cooled 2 cycle critters.

I've done my research and found that Lockwood in Sebring bought all the remaining stock in Florida and CPS bought the rest of what was in this country. So much for getting my Penzoil at my local NAPA store for about $1.67 a pint! They can still get me the 8oz bottles for about a 60% increase in cost (the yard guys use it).

Rotax will not stand behind the use of any oil unless it is rated API-TC. They don't want the lesser protection of the TCW3 products.

So I'm looking for alternatives. So far I've found;

1. CPS will sell me 5gal of their AV2 (their own product) for about $100.00
2. Amsoil has a product called "Interceptor" which I can get locally for $10.00 per quart.

And I know there are others out there. So what do you guys say? Are you still getting the old penzoil? Are you using just any old TCW3? Or have you already found a good alternative? I don't want to just start experimenting. And I love the Penzoil. 300 hours and my 447 looks new inside.

My mind is open and I'm ready to listen.
 
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Pennzoil

Pennzoil

Rick,
I have emailed a source that I found and hope to hear from them tomorrow.
I'll let you know what I find out.
Trez
*******************
 
crap. that is the oil I use in all of my 2 stroke engines.
 
Rick, I bought 5 gallons of AV2 from CPS......I won't have to think about oil for a while !
 
do yourself a favor and read the specs on tcw3 oil..... meets or exceeds API-TC specs...... it is better oil.

Buy what you want, but I have used various brands of TC-W3 oil over the years and never had any issues with carbon or excessive wear. I mix 50-1.

As I told you on the phone last week, I use this oil in everything I have 2 stroke.... lawn equipment, gyros, ultralights, jet skis, dirt bikes, etc. Never had the first problem with this oil.

Flightworld in Greer SC who I took my training from back in the mid 1990's highly reccommended YamaLube 2R oil, and I have used it too with good results, but it is about 7$ a quart if purchased at the local motorcycle shop.
 
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Last time I bought some they had changed the name to "outdoor" as if anyone would use it in a 2 stroke vacuum cleaner or something.
I'll do some checking around. Check with Aircraft Spruce.
With all the out lawing of 2 strokes oil may become hard to find...
 
Good deal Trez. I'll wait to see what happens.

Yes Jim. That is the correct procuct. "4130". And yes it did receive a new label a while back. But we've been paying $41.00 per case (24, 16 oz).

Chris, let us know how you like the AV2. I hear it might be even better than the Penzoil.

Thanks Friendly. That's one of the first articles I read. It got my attention.

Ron, all this info could be a bunch of crap designed to sell API-TC. But that's
exactly what I'm trying to figure out. Thanks for your input.

Scott, thanks for the info. It obviously reinforces Friendly's article.

By the way, Ed just found 5 cases of the old Penzoil for $41.00 per case. So I have a couple of cases to hold me over while we figure it out. Ed also said that he talked to Shell. They are aware of our problem and have indicated that after the 1st of the year they will have their own product on the market to replace the old Penzoil. Hmmmmmmmm.

My ears are still open to any other info.
 
Rick,
I haven't received an email back from the source I was referencing.
Went ahead and ordered a case - we'll see what happens.
See ya later................
Trez
****************
 
From Havolines web site... and I quote!

It meets the latest requirements of the NMMA TC-W3 performance standard, is formulated to meet ISO-L-EGB (JASO FB) passing criteria and meets API TC requirements for use in aircooled two-stroke applications.

http://www.havoline.com/products/na/motoroil_tcw3.html

Again, if anyone out there feels like you must buy pennzoil go for it, or spend even more money on something else like AV-2 oil.... but being around and flying these Rotax engines for 13+ years now and seeing countless people in my area flying Havoline ( and other name brand TCW3 oils ) without carbon problems or excessive wear problems, I myself would not throw away unneeded money or go to much trouble to get some other type of oil. Havoline is usually on the shelf at Autozone and other autoparts stores and is under 4$ a quart ( makes 12 gallons of premix )
 
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Rick,at the engines first runs I think I used Penzoil, but I switched to AV2 a long time ago.

That's all I feed her & premium fuel(I know she don't need it). No problems so far......knock on wood.
 
Ron,

Most of the info states that the API-TC oils give a higher level of protection than normal TCW3. But obvioulsy this Havoline product is something different and appears to meet Rotax's requirements. Therefore, I would feel comfortable using it. The Penzoil is still cheaper as long as we can get it at about $1.67 per pint. Thanks for the lead.
 
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I hate to bring this back up, but has anyone had trouble finding the pennzoil? Aircraft spruce only carries it in the 8oz bottle for $1.45 ea.

The Havoline Ron posted looks good.

So does the quicksilver PWC 2 API TC oil, not the Premium TCW3
 
I use a stuff called Blue Max that Hirth says burns totally ashless. I mix at 90:1. It is more expensive than Chanel number 5! I use it because I have had no problems but I am thinking it will get hard to find down here in Panama (as in will have to import it and that will really cost). Is there another that should be just as good....?

Fiveboy
 
Quicksilver is the oil I used when I had a 503 mounted on it. Never had any trouble with it.
When I got the 618 I changed to Pennzoil because it was easier to find.
 
Tim, that looks OK, is it easy to find?

What you need to look for is the API TC rating, NOT TCW3

The API TC is for high temperature air cooled. (this applies for liquid cooled rotax as well because of the power levels, and heat)

The TCW3 is for outboard engines.

What this means is that the TCW3 oil flashes at a lower temp causing carbon build up.
 
The specs on the Castrol 2T says it meets the API TC rating. I think it's easy to find. One guy gets it at Walmart and another guy gets it at Pep Boys. I'll try to look for some so I can get a price.
 
More about oils if anyone cares. I found this on a PWC site.

2 CYCLE ENGINE OIL OPTIONS- SEADOO ROTAX USERS MUST READ!
not mine but interesting

I have spent way too much time researching this, but hopefully it will shed some light on the whole Oil Debate for 2 cycle Rotax engines. Contrary to what most people may believe, Whether or not the oil is “Low Ash” or “Ashless” is not very much concern. Although Low Ash oils typically do provide added protection, it does not necessarily mean we should choose our oil based on whether or not it is Ashless or Low Ash. What is more important is the Oil Quality Classification. The oil quality classification is generally used to determine the oil’s ability to prevent failure under unusual loads. There are several oil classification standards, but the ones that pertain to us are NMMA, API, ISO, and JASO. I will limit the standards to ones that pertain to us.

Standards you may be familiar with:

API Standards
In 1988 the American Petroleum Institute (API) and the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) defined oil designations for different two-cycle engine oil applications. These included:

API TA - Asian Use, High Ash Oil
API TB - European Use, Medium Ash Oil
API TC - North American Use, Low Ash Air-Cooled Engine Oil
API TD - North American Use, Ash-Free Outboard, Water-Cooled Engine Oil.

After viewing this list, you may find that these classifications are primarily based on the amount of Ash, not a very good way of determining the ability for oil to protect your engine. This method of classification is outdated and seldom used.

As you know, our SeaDoo’s call for API TC. Although our 2-cycle Rotax is not an Air-cooled engine, it requires this oil because air-cooled oils typically offer much better protection than water-cooled oils.

NMMA Standards
In 1988 the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA), formerly the BIA, issued TC-WII lubricant requirements. In 1993 TC-W3 came out. As we all know, these standards mean nothing to us Rotax users because they will do not provide enough protection against engine failure in Rotax or Aircooled (Like the ones featured in Ultralites) engines. This standard does not even meet API TC’s engine protection, as it was not designed to withstand the typical challenges of an Air-Cooled Engine (or in our case, a high horsepower, high RPM, high temperature Rotax engine).

Newer Standards that make more sense:

ISO "Global" System
ISO is Europe’s solution to the American Crap system. They are classified as follows:

Global "EGD" is internationally recognized as the highest quality air-cooled 2-cycle oil available. It is a synthetic or semi-synthetic, extreme temperature/anti-scuff/lubricity, low smoke, low ash oil. Comparable to JASO FD. There is no comparable API product. API is significantly less quality than EGD.

Global "EGC" is equivalent to JASO "FC," Japan's highest quality 2-cycle oil. In Japan these oils may also be referred to as "Genuine" oils. These oils are high lubricity/detergent, low smoke, semi-synthetic, low ash oils.

Global "EGB" Europe's lowest quality 2-cycle oil, is equivalent to JASO "FB." It is generally accepted that North America's API TC rated oils are equivalent to these oils. These oils do not require any synthetic to meet specifications, but do have detergent and/or lubricity additives, and are typically low to medium ash oils.

JASO System
JASO is Japan’s solution to the American Crap system. They are classified as follows:

JASO "FA" rated oils are used in Pacific Rim countries and are the lowest rated Japanese 2-cycle oils. They are medium to high ash mineral oils with limited lubricity or detergency. As of December 2004, this classification will not be used.

JASO "FB" is equivalent to Global "GB." It is generally accepted that North America's API TC rated oils are equivalent to these oils. These oils do not require any synthetic to meet specifications, but do have detergent and/or lubricity additives, and are typically low to medium ash oils.

JASO "FC" is equivalent to Global "GC," Europe's medium quality 2-cycle oil. In Japan these oils may also be referred to as "Genuine" oils. These oils are high lubricity/detergent, low smoke, semi-synthetic, low ash oils. Before December 2004, this was JASO’s highest quality oil.

JASO "FD" is equivalent to Global "GD," Europe's Highest quality 2-cycle oil. This classification was added December 2004.


So what does this mean to us????

Our Seadoo’s require protection that API TC delivers. However better protection is obviously better!

Instead of looking for oil that is API TC “Low Ash” we should be focusing our attention on oils that provide comparable or better protection. So here is a new criteria for oil.

For the best protection exceeding API TC: Use oil that meets or exceeds ISO EGD, ISO EGC, JASO FC, or JASO FD

For comparable protection to API TC: Use oil that meets or exceeds ISO EGB, JASO FB, or API TC

AVOID: JASO FA, and all TC-W* unless it meets or exceeds a higher standard listed in the product data sheet.
 
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