RAF got a BAD RAPP

[Steve McGowan]

I have been Brainwashed over the years with all the Negative things happenning to RAF er's..

They's kill Ya.. PIO Prone NA NA NA NA and so on..And I kinda took it to heart that I was not capable or had enuff nerve to actually fly one SOLO.

Well I must say I was rong,, A friend from South Georgia, Bernie Brigman brought his RAF up a few weeks ago to get it tuned up and test flown. Well after a good bit of inspections and tweeking Bo Collins took it for a run around the patch,,, Wow it looked great,,, Now as Bo said,, YOUR TURN :boink:

Yes I was nervous,, Yes I was APPREHENSIVE and Yes wondered IF.

A Lil more tweeking and I did go out for a test flight,, and yes it was SOLO.

Now for the good part........

I must say that I have NOT had such a surprising flight in a completely NEW experience than I have in that RAF..

SWEET, ABSOLUTELY SWEET.. and after that we installed a Parham Stab to help out with the mind set... Again it's even better and as I have shown it's a HANDS OFF Machine when trimmed out correctly.

I am sorry for all the pains that the RAF's have seemingly cause to the gyro community,, But it's in NO WAY the aircrafts fault..

Here are a few pics of before and after the stab was installed, and one with Bo and I together.. So look at the instrumentation.. Thats with a 2.2 Sube.

I again must say that I feel and hope that Dan Haslow knows how much I appreciate him asking me to fly the RAF.

Steve

 

[Mike484]

Great to hear this Steve. Did the stab actually make that much of a differance or just make you feel better. I also wonder how many RAF bashers have experienced what you experienced today.

 

[GyroDoug]

I like RAFs (with mods)

I like RAFs (with mods)

I can only speak for myself, but for the most part I don't think the general body of the forum thinks RAF machines are bad or killers. I do think they are a less stable and less safe to fly machine than most of the newer designs, when left in their original and stock configuration. And I believe with some very reasonable modifications they can be made more stable and safer to fly.

Everyone has always agreed they are a very good looking machine and truth be told, most of us probably wish we owned one. But if I did, I personally wouldn't try flying it until I had mitigated the high thrust line and added a Horizontal Stabilizer. I would not discourage a friend from buying one, but I would sure encourage him to do everything he could to make it more stable and safer and easier to fly, and the mods do that. I know in the hands of an experienced Gyro Pilot they can still be flown and be a lot of fun. But anyone who is learning to fly and flown one without a HS and then one with, will tell you they are a lot easier for a new guy to fly with a HS.

I hope we can all learn to appreciate one another's chosen aircraft. We all have different tastes and different priorities and so we are attracted to different paths down the world of flying Gyroplanes but that is what makes it interesting. We just need to be careful that we don't let our own pride in our chosen machine take us down a path that might confuse new people or create a more dangerous situation for others. I really like the line Gary puts at the bottom of his posts. I believe he writes: "My name is Gary, and I fly a high-thrustline (unstable) gyroplane. (But I do have an H-stab and fly with these stability issues in mind.)" To me that is a responsible attitude. He is not backing away from his belief that an RAF is the right machine for him. And he is admitting that there are some issues with the machine and he states what he has done to deal with those issue. It doesn't get better than that.

 

[Mike484]

I don't plan on flying mine without mods (I don't think Ron Menzie will let me anyway) but I also don't believe we can bash anyone who does fly without mods or blame the machines themselves. Many have flown without and with many successful hours. We all preach train, train, train but yet when a low hours pilot gets in trouble with an RAF it seems as though the immediate response is to attack the machine when in fact we need to practice what we preach which is train, train, train.

 

[LARRYEBOYER]

Properly trimed and stabilized including a keel step and engine drop and there are few that compare with the ease of flying. Also the ability to carry two people in air conditioning(doors off) and heated(doors on) is hard to beat.I am glad Steve enjoyed the excitement of flying one of the best and beautiful gyros on the market today. Looking at new gyro kits with other brands, RAF is a deal for the money. Buy a good used one and proper training, and you are in hog heaven.

 

[bmoore2156]

So what you guys are saying is.... For a 2 place Gyro, A RAF with the SH conversion is the biggest bang for the buck?
Brad

 

[dragonflyerthom]

Brad it doesn't have to have the SH conversion to be safer and funner.

 

[Timchick]

So what you guys are saying is.... For a 2 place Gyro, A RAF with the SH conversion is the biggest bang for the buck?
Brad

Doing the Larry Boyer drop keel with a good stab is probably the biggest bang for the buck as far as mods go.

 

[Tex~N~Oz]

So RAFs just attract bad pilots?

You have to be kidding me to make such an "objective" assessment of any aircraft with a "fly around the patch"...
While you may have been impressed with it's flight characteristics on such a short introductory flight, I think it very irresponsible to now pipe up and become the RAF safety spokesperson..

This is like a drug company with a drug that's known to kill a fair few people, give one pill to one of their scientists and when he doesn't fall over dead, jump up and down screaming success when it only makes him feel good..

The NTSB database will always be my guildline for a stable machine.

 

[EI-GYRO]

The stock RAF ( no stab ) killed a lot of people it shouldnt have.
Some highly experienced pilots among them.
It has been tested by the CAA and found to be increasingly unstable
in pitch as speed is increased.
With a stab it seems to be a reasonable machine.

Fact is, very few people still fly a stock RAF.

If the arguments against it were valid back then, they still are.
Nothing has changed.

 

[Mike484]

I don't believe there is anyone that denies that the RAF is safer with a HS. But any gyroplane is very dangerous in the wrong hands. What I see is that Steve and Bo both flew this and were impressed by how it handled BUT if I was to fly it (with only 19 hours of training) and killed myself I believe there would be a lot of people that would immediately blame the machine, the same one that flew successfully with experienced pilots. If you look at my website you will see that I fully support RAF modifications but even with modifications it is still a very dangerous machine in unskilled hands as is all gyroplanes.

 

[GyroCFI]

I was actually apprehensive about taking my checkride in an RAF (even with Ron Menzie by my side). I was one of those people who had the mindset from all the accidents and negative press that it was going to be a handfull to fly. Ron's has the Sparrow Hawk mod I believe (correct me if i'm wrong about that) and it flew beautifully, so it wasn' really a stock RAF. But I was pleasantly surprised at how nimble it flew and how easy I was able to feel "at home" with it. Perhaps it was, as others have suggested, my experience level, but still I was pleased at how it handled. I would have an RAF with the mods any day. It was comfortable and I could seriously see doing a good cross country with it.

 

[C. Beaty]

Not everyone manages to cheat Mother Nature.

This ATP rated pilot a had total of 14,550 hours, including 20 hours of dual instruction in an RAF and 50 hours solo.

Without the Parham stab, the hole might have been deeper.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20031216X02040&key=1

Unstable gyros are often nimble, responsive and pleasant to fly. But such attributes do not preclude gonorrhea.

 

[Tex~N~Oz]

I don't believe there is anyone that denies that the RAF is safer with a HS.

What about this???

Brad it doesn't have to have the SH conversion to be safer and funner.

But any gyroplane is very dangerous in the wrong hands. What I see is that Steve and Bo both flew this and were impressed by how it handled BUT if I was to fly it (with only 19 hours of training) and killed myself I believe there would be a lot of people that would immediately blame the machine, the same one that flew successfully with experienced pilots. If you look at my website you will see that I fully support RAF modifications but even with modifications it is still a very dangerous machine in unskilled hands as is all gyroplanes.

The NTSB shows the below statement to be very true.

The stock RAF ( no stab ) killed a lot of people it shouldnt have.
Some highly experienced pilots among them.
It has been tested by the CAA and found to be increasingly unstable
in pitch as speed is increased.
With a stab it seems to be a reasonable machine.

Fact is, very few people still fly a stock RAF.

If the arguments against it were valid back then, they still are.
Nothing has changed.

I think I'll stick with the NTSB and their findings that relate to this machine. I've never understood why we champion a design we know to be dangerous just because we own one of for some reason like the design.

 

[Kevin_Richey]

So what you guys are saying is.... For a 2 place Gyro, A RAF with the SH conversion is the biggest bang for the buck?
Brad

So Brad...is there something you want to tell us?

 

[Tex~N~Oz]

I was one of those people who had the mindset from all the accidents and negative press that it was going to be a handfull to fly.

Maybe this is the gingerbread house of this design.. It's so nice and nimble, a real cream-puff of a wet dream to fly and the second you take it just outside it's envelope it WHAM body slams you from altitude.
There is something wrong with this design and I'm sure Chuckles could tell you more about it than I. It does have a bad rap and it does deserve it.
I've seen more pictures of smoldering RAFs than any other aircraft in my life.

 

[bmoore2156]

So Brad...is there something you want to tell us?

Yes :boink:Kevin, probably on sunday evening. eace:


Tex,
Are you saying that a RAF converted to CLT with a H-Stab is an unsafe gyro? Or maybe not as safe as others?

 

[Steve McGowan]

Well Shoot

Well Shoot

Seems that I completely forgot that the Sky Is Falling and we're all suppose to be the saviors of this sport.

I didn't say that I was going to start instructing in RAF's,, But what If I were to. Would everyone line up at Bensen Day's to Kick my A$$.

You can also find a few of my soft as a Sister's Kisses Groundings where I tore the Hell outta more than one gyro.. Listed on the NTSB reports

So Please gentleman,,and I say that very SoFtly... check with one or two that I have instructed , before you think I throw caution to the wind..

I still had fun flyin it, and may do it again tomorrow..
Yes It's Mine,, and you can't have any.

 

[automan1223]

old age or old addage ?

old age or old addage ?

They say you cant teach old dogs new tricks...........

I wonder if that is really true.........:whip:


J

 

[Tex~N~Oz]

Tex,
Are you saying that a RAF converted to CLT with a H-Stab is an unsafe gyro? Or maybe not as safe as others?

Firstly, I don't think you can make any side-by-side as safe as you can a tandem with the pax sitting in the RTL. That's just a balancing issue that I can't see being easy to overcome in a side-by-side.

Other than that, I don't know anything about the modifications to a RAF and I don't know if those modifications are listed by the NTSB when one burns in for glory.. Perhaps someone out there with first hand investigation experience of some RAF accidents can tell us?