On to “Plan B!”

Vance

Gyroplane CFI
Staff member
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
18,379
Location
Santa Maria, California
Aircraft
Givens Predator
Total Flight Time
2600+ in rotorcraft
For those who weren’t on board for the flights to Santa Paula in preparation for El Mirage I will try to express my frustration with Santa Barbara ATC. I met the ground controller that ran me into the commercial part of the airport where I wasn’t supposed to be and he knew of all eight times I had been through his airspace. He admitted that I provided comic relief for the whole team. In my opinion they weren’t helpful. I let them know I was a transient and unfamiliar with the airport and they ran me around from frequency to frequency. I would ask them to “say again please” and they would just talk faster. I did not know that I needed to read back my departure instructions and I didn’t have anything to write with. I said,” Experimental gyroplane 142 Mike Golf holding short of 25 at Bravo and they corrected me that I was holding short of runway 25. I finally prevailed when I realized that it was their mission to get me out of their safely without having to fill out a report. I have not been back to Santa Barbara since. Each time I have been through their space they are always not helpful. I always have trouble with their radio frequencies and I have found out that most people do. It has something to do with the iron content of the nearby hills and how low I fly.

I their defense I was over my level of experience and I didn’t handle it well.

The plan for today was to go back with detailed maps of the airport, two separate radio call sheets, one for arrival and one for departure with all the radio frequencies and lots of places to write instructions with my wet erase markers. I knew where I wanted to go on the airport and what taxi ways to take to get there. I was going to land short on 15 right and take taxiway Hotel before runway 25 to taxiway Juliet past the helicopter parking to transient parking in front of The Elephant Bar and Grill. After lunch I was going to call ground and taxi to the departure end of 25 on Juliet. I had all the recommended language written out. I had my read backs ready and I was going to make a 90 degree right when able and proceed east along the 101 at or below two thousand five hundred feet. If they changed something I was ready. I was even going to ask SMX ground for flight following so I wouldn’t have to manage my transponder code changes on both sides of their airspace. In short I was going to demonstrate that I had learned from my last experience and I knew how to interact with ATC. I have worked on this ever since my interaction and the plan was finally going to come together. To those of you that think this was petty and small minded, you are correct!

When I looked across the Valley where there is often for in the morning, it was clear. When we arrived at SMX winds were calm and skies were blue, no clouds. Preflight went well. There were some last minute battery challenges for my active noise canceling head set and some maintenance guys from a K-Max that they are using to fight fires with, stopped by to admire the Predator. They had seen her fly the day before and were knowledgeable. Lockheed Martin had already said that there was an air met for fog along the coast and VFR was not recommended. I figured it would burn off and called Santa Barbara regularly for the rest of the day. The ceiling never got above 900 feet and they were IFR the entire day. Figures!!

On to plan B. We flew over the hill toward Lompoc and then down the Lompoc valley to Buellton, peeked over the Gaviota Pass at the wall of fog and on to Santa Ynez. We found big head winds near the mountains and I was concerned that it was blowing the opposite way of normal. I listened to CTAF and everyone was landing on runway 26. There was a lot of traffic and one fellow, Ed, had an experimental that would fill the airwaves with unintelligible SSSHHH sounds each time he keyed the mike, which was often. As I joined the left pattern from a 45 I could see that the windsocks were flaccid and as I called my short final for 26 a Cessna was turning base for 26. I landed long at the taxiway and scooted off the runway just as he touched down. We fueled up and I filled out my log book. I tied her down in transient parking and Ed with the experimental with the bad radio came by to admire the Predator and offered us a ride to the restaurant. I demurred thinking it was an easy walk to town. The boys in the office took our stuff so we could travel light. We walked about two miles over some very steep terrain, through two barbwire fences, down a dry creek and through a storm drain under the highway to a Barbeque restaurant that was closed. Fortunately Burger Barn was just down the street. The food and service were great and we continued to call Santa Barbara ATIS.

As we walked back to the airport on a somewhat less arduous track we stopped in at the sailplane airport adjacent IZA we closely inspected some sail planes and talked to the fellow who was running the place. He had seen us fly and had nice things to say. We land right over the top of them and I asked if that was a problem. It was not.

We decided to head north for an aimless hills and valleys tour. We had two hours of fuel on board. The takeoff was short and smooth and she caught lift as we neared the hills on the noise sensitive heading. We headed due north for no particular reason at around 2,000 feet skimming the tops of the hills and thrilling as the ground dropped away. We circled and swooped and generally had a great time. As we neared the Santa Maria River it became overcast and I headed toward the airport. I called in from ten miles out with Sierra. We were told to report at two miles. The field was still VFR but things were closing down quickly. Before I could call two miles ATC said, “2 Mike Golf, you are number two behind the departing Citabria. I could hardly see the runway and I reported negative contact on the Citabria. “2 Mike Golf, the Citabria is not a factor.” I requested a long landing and was not sure we had touched down.

I turned on the intercom and Ed and I both had the same words, “wow, what a wonderful day!”

We called for the new less expensive fuel truck and performed a comprehensive post flight inspection and cleaned some of the oil off the tail and prop.

On the way home the sky went overcast and we were thankful to be down.

Ed is going to try to post some pictures tomorrow. She has again filled up her flicker account.

Thank you, Vance
 
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Vance, it seems that different offices have different "micro-cultures." One or more individuals -- not always the boss -- set the tone. Maybe you could chat with that controller's superior. If it's worth the bother to you.
 
Hello Doug,

Thank you for the good advice. I have experienced divergent cultures in the work place. As often as they review the tapes there the supervisor is probably aware of the attitude that prevails even if it is not his.

It is not easy to talk to the boss in the tower at Santa Barbara. I have been by twice and was not able to speak with the supervisor. It is a teaching FAA tower so many of the controllers aren’t very good and they try to hide it with their shenanigans.

The controller I talked to felt bad about the culture of the tower. He claimed that sending me where I wasn’t supposed to be was an accident. Most of them don’t fly.

I initiated more than half of the challenges I had when I landed there. It was not part of my flight plan. I did not understand the difference in class Charlie airspace ATC interactions. I did not have a detailed map of the taxiways and did not understand their refueling procedure. I did not know that they did not have self serv. I was intimidated by the presence and movement of so many large airliners. I was not prepared to write down complex departure instructions and I did not read them back well. My transponder is difficult to reach and see so I was turning the knobs when I should have been listening and writing for the read back. I was still having challenges with the east west orientation of the north south highway 101.

Since then I have been confused with phrases like “maintain appropriate VFR altitude” and “are you going somewhere or just fooling around up there?” My Santa Barbara ATC friend explained them to me.

The challenge with the radio frequencies is not their fault. Many aircraft have trouble and that is why they have so many frequencies. At the time I did not know how to get to the third digit. I have since learned. The low altitudes that I fly makes both radio and radar contact more difficult.

This is really a mission to quantify my progress. The fantasy is to be so professional and knowledgeable that they don’t start with their silliness. The only information I should need from them is radio frequency changes and arrival and departure instructions. They won’t be able to speak fast enough for me to not understand what they are saying. This is also a prelude to entering class B airspace when I fly to San Carlos, California.

The hurt and embarrassed little kid in me wants to “show them” that I know what I am doing now. These feelings were exacerbated when I found out I was bar talk and comic relief. It is part of the fun for me.

Thank you, Vance
 
I would avoid them and if you cant I would report them. Your safety and that of the others is no ones entertainment. When you die they will gather in a circle and make it be your fault.

Record your transmissions with them and jump to the bosses boss if you have to.
 
Most of them don’t fly.

Sounds like an opportunity for an introductory ride to me. If they're having trouble empathizing with the plight of the pilot in their airspace, there's nothing like experiencing the other end!
 
Thank you for the perspective Robert.

I checked the NTSB reports for the area back thirty years and I found 3 accidents that a little better ATC work might have prevented. There was only one minor injury. It appears that they are managing a busy airspace pretty well.

When we hangar fly I find that most of the pilots around here have had similar experiences with SBA ATC for as long as they can remember.

This experience has helped me to get better at dealing with ATC and appreciate my home tower at SMX.

Thank you Paul,

I have invited all of the local tower people plus my friend from Santa Barbara ATC to fly and they have all said no with various degrees of derision for the safety of “gyrocopters.”

Thank you, Vance
 
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This is also a prelude to entering class B airspace when I fly to San Carlos, California.

You won't need to penetrate the SFO class B to get in and out of San Carlos unless you really want to for the practice/experience. You can even avoid the SJC class C on a trip like that if you wish, and stay out of class D until you're right up the SQL airspace itself.

I'd be happy to give suggestions on how to get around the peninsula if you'd like.
 
Hi Vance,

At some point in time within our flying careers, we all have experienced rude and arrogant controllers. Here's a little trick to stop any shenanigans from any controller.

Whenever you experience a less than helpful controller, just say to them, "Please say time, and say initials." If they balk, as the same request again. If they balk again, say the same phrase again for the third time.

All FAA ATC communications are recorded. Asking the controller to "say time and say initials" is letting the controller know that you know the ATC communications between you and him/her are being recorded, you do not like his or her attitude, and if there is an incident there is a verbal time stamp and the specific initials of the controller on the tape for further review. The three time request is for your protection. If the controller does not comply with your request the first two or third time the audio recording will show any hearing officer, judge or jury that the controller is willfully not complying with your request.

Believe me, just asking the controller "say time and say initials" in almost all cases will make them straighten up real quick and act much more porfessional with you and you then can enjoy the rest of your flight.

Wayne
 
Thank you Mr. Stark, I would be pleased to take you up on your generous offer.

My email is [email protected]. I can call or meet with you wherever you like.

I understand that you are a certified flight instructor. I would love to schedule some ground school focused on communications.

Thank you, Vance
 
Thank you Wayne,

I feel I should learn to manage my communications well before I try to modify their behavior.

I am always amazed at your eclectic knowledge of aviation. You clearly have boldly gone were few others have.

Thank you, Vance
 
Hi Vance,

At some point in time within our flying careers, we all have experienced rude and arrogant controllers. Here's a little trick to stop any shenanigans from any controller.

Whenever you experience a less than helpful controller, just say to them, "Please say time, and say initials." If they balk, as the same request again. If they balk again, say the same phrase again for the third time.

All FAA ATC communications are recorded. Asking the controller to "say time and say initials" is letting the controller know that you know the ATC communications between you and him/her are being recorded, you do not like his or her attitude, and if there is an incident there is a verbal time stamp and the specific initials of the controller on the tape for further review. The three time request is for your protection. If the controller does not comply with your request the first two or third time the audio recording will show any hearing officer, judge or jury that the controller is willfully not complying with your request.

Believe me, just asking the controller "say time and say initials" in almost all cases will make them straighten up real quick and act much more porfessional with you and you then can enjoy the rest of your flight.

Wayne

Very good advice, thank you!

Kai.
 
Thank you Vance for the compliment. I've collected my aviation knowledge base from experience and continue to collect by learning through reading and discussion (hanger flying and this forum). I'm constantly learning more about flying and aviation every day and I enjoy it.

By far, not all controllers are jerks. I have some great friends that are controllers, from the towers at Van Nuys Airport (KVNY) and Whiteman Airport (KWHP). I often visit and socialize with them during their off hours.

Vance, do you have an aviation scanner or handheld? If so, go to the airport and just sit behind the red line and watch and listen to aircraft talke off and land. If you live on a hill, tune in SoCal and just listen to enroute communications (or listen to them off the internet). Mentally try to keep track of all the aircraft that call in and see if you can follow what's going on. It's great fun and good mental exercise to boot.

It just takes practice within the ATC system to become proficent. I'm sure you're doing fine with your air-to-ground communications with ATC. I do like that you always believe that there is room for improvement. You have the attitude and aspiration to become a great pilot.

Just keep up the written prose about your flying adventures, and thank you again for allowing me to fly with you on each flight (no weight and balance needed with me), pictures and all.

Wayne
 
I will tell you though that I one time was goofing off one late evening while I was receiving flight following from Point Mugu Approach. I was told that I have traffic at my 2 o'clock, 3 miles altitude unknown. I responded back, "We all have digital watches on board, can I have a different clue?" After a long silence, I was told, "squack 1200, radar service terminated." I learned my lesson.

I cannot vouch if the following ATC conversations are true, but are still funny to read.

Enjoy,

Wayne

1. While taxiing at London Gatwick Airport, the crew of a US Air flight
departing for Ft. Lauderdale made a wrong turn and came nose to nose
with a United 727. An irate female ground controller lashed out at the
US Air crew, screaming: "US Air 2771, where the ###### are you going? I
told you to turn right onto Charlie taxiway! You turned right on Delta!
Stop right there. I know it's difficult for you to tell the difference
between C and D, but get it right!" Continuing her rage to the
embarrassed crew, she was now shouting hysterically: "God! Now you've
screwed everything up! It'll take forever to sort this out! You stay
right there and don't move till I tell you to! You can expect
progressive taxi instructions in about half an hour and I want you to go
exactly where I tell you, when I tell you, and how I tell you! You got
that, US Air 2771?"

"Yes ma'am," the humbled crew responded.

Naturally, the ground control communications frequency fell terribly
silent after the verbal bashing of US Air 2771. Nobody wanted to chance
engaging the irate ground controller in her current state of mind.
Tension in every cockpit out in Gatwick was definitely running high.
Just then an unknown pilot broke the silence and keyed his microphone,
asking:

"Wasn't I married to you once?"
===================================================
2. A DC-10 had come in a little hot and thus had an exceedingly long roll
out after touching down. San Jose Tower Noted: "American 751, make a
hard right turn at the end of the runway, if you are able. If you are
not able, take the Guadalupe exit off Highway 101, make a right at the
lights and return to the airport."
===================================================
3. From an unknown aircraft waiting in a very long takeoff queue: "I'm
f...ing bored!"
Ground Traffic Control: "Last aircraft transmitting, identify yourself
immediately!"
Unknown aircraft: "I said I was f... ing bored, not f... ing stupid!"
===================================================
4. Tower: "Eastern 702, cleared for takeoff, contact Departure on frequency
124.7"

Eastern 702: "Tower, Eastern 702 switching to Departure. By the way,
after we lifted off we saw some kind of dead animal on the far end of
the runway."

Tower: "Continental 635, cleared for takeoff behind Eastern
702, contact Departure on frequency 124.7. Did you copy that report from
Eastern 702?"

Continental 635: "Continental 635, cleared for takeoff, roger; and yes,
we copied Eastern... we've already notified our caterers"
===================================================
5. The German air controllers at Frankfurt Airport are renowned as a
short-tempered lot. They not only expect one to know one's gate parking
location, but how to get there without any assistance from them. So it
was with some amusement that we (a Pan Am 747) listened to the following
exchange between Frankfurt ground control and a British Airways 747,
call sign "Speedbird 206".

Speedbird 206: "Frankfurt, Speedbird 206 clear of active runway."

Ground: "Speedbird 206. Taxi to gate Alpha One-Seven."

The BA 747 pulled onto the main taxiway and slowed to a stop.
Ground: "Speedbird, do you not know where you are going?"

Speedbird 206: "Stand by, Ground, I'm looking up our gate location now."

Ground (with quite arrogant impatience): "Speedbird 206, have you not
been to Frankfurt before?"

Speedbird 206 (coolly): "Yes, twice in 1944 -- but I didn't land."
===================================================
6. O'Hare Approach Control to a 747: "United 329 heavy, your traffic is a
Fokker, one o'clock, three miles, Eastbound."

United 329: "Approach, I've always wanted to say this... I've got the
little Fokker in sight."
===================================================
7. A Pan Am 727 flight waiting for start clearance in Munich overheard the
following:

Lufthansa (in German): "Ground, what is our start clearance time?"

Ground (in English): "If you want an answer you must speak in English."

Lufthansa (in English): "I am a German, flying a German airplane, in
Germany. Why must I speak English?"

Unknown voice from another plane (in a beautiful British accent):
"Because you lost the bloody war."
 
Vance- That is interesting your experience in controlled airspace.

I have admitted several times that since obtaining my pilots license in 1983, I had NEVER been back into controlled airspace.....until I HAD to for one of my helicopter rating requirements.

I had to make 3 take off and landings solo at a controlled airport. I know its no big deal...but I also had an arrogant controller.

I let them know I was enroute for three landings and takeoffs. They instructed me to do a straight in to runway 2. On my final approach I was told to hover on the numbers and await clearance for takeoff.

I was cleared for takeoff at my discretion....so I asked what size pattern to fly.....and the controller sarcastically said...."Fly any size pattern you want!

So, I just snapped...."OK!!" and I tlook off and flew 3 tight patterns as tight as a helicopter could fly...well actually I flew all three patterns inside 100 feet. I made my last landing and said I was done and requested a departure to the SW....which I was granted. I guess the controllers had a newbie they detected and were having fun with me....so me showing them probably the 3 tightest patterns ptobably had them poking their comrades saying...Look at this guy!

Stan
 
I always learn from you Wayne,

I am pleased to have you along and I truly appreciate it when you add your advice and experience. I find you perspective illuminating.

When Ed and I eat our barbeque at the airport we listen to the hand held. I am free in my critique of the communications. I also take the handheld to most air shows we attend so I can be prepared with the more unusual communications.

I love learning how to use fewer words so I can talk at my pace and still take up less time than most.

Hello Stan,

I was surprised to find that I provide such entertainment for the controllers.

I could not imagine a single aircraft out of 332 average per day creating that much entertainment.

I tested him and he did know of all the communications that took place as I interacted with the various controllers while traveling through their airspace.

He was kind enough to explain some of the communications that were outside of standard FAA phraseology.

I suspect that they are smart people that need a certain level of comedic events to keep them alert.

Thank you Jim,

I love that site. Wow, an average of 1476 flights per day, KPHX is a busy tower.

Thank you, Vance
 
Many years ago while taking off from Nashville the controller cleared me for takeoff and expedite left turn for departure. The controller did not expect me to rotate the nose, then the right main, and finally the left main. I don’t think I could expedite any quicker. They now request left turn prior to crossing 13-31.

On another occasion the controller was having a bad day and cleared me to land and to take the first turnoff. I guess I was having a bad day also as Cessna 152 can land pretty short when asked to. The first turnoff is five hundred feet from the end of the runway. While sitting there I asked the controller if he wanted me to taxi to the first available turn off or would the other aircraft be backing up to make way. They now issue cleared to land, first turn off when able, please expedite.

In all fairness, the controllers are a good lot, working in conditions that many of us can not imagine, especially with the shortage of knowledgeable controllers with experience. I can only imagine the frustration in the Northeast, as that seems to be where the new controllers and new airline pilots seem to have their first duty assignments.

Personally, my hat is off to them for putting up with pilots like me. But I do know when the chips are down and someone has a problem, that pilot will be the controller’s center of attention, and they will do whatever they can to assist.
 
Vance,

All tower communications are recorded. I made a mistake once when a student regarding communications protocol and my instructor got all over me about it. He was the one that informed me this stuff is recorded. If you need to challenge an ATC, the recordings are already made and available. I'm not sure how to get them, but I'm sure the local FAA office can help you.

Also, Mr. Stark is correct. You can get to SQL without transiting anyones airspace if you don't want to. Additionally, the ATCs in the Bay Area tend to be pretty cooperative and pleasant unless you really blow it big. I did that once and it happened to be the SQL ATC that reamed my @$$! I had it coming, though. I requested transition from Hayward to Half Moon Bay via SQL. They told me to cross mid-field at 1200' and to stay clear of Class Bravo (SFO). I read back exactly what they said and initiated a climb from 1000'. Somehow during the climb, I got it in my thick head he said 2000'. That was where I leveled off. That also put me 500' into Class Bravo! Thank God SFO wasn't using the crosswind runways or it could have been ugly. The SQL ATC reamed me good, but like I said, I had it coming. I haven't done that again.

I was in Mountain View last Sunday and stopped at PAO. It's a nice airport. It and SQL have short enough runways that they only accomodate (mostly) single engine planes. It was a nice change from Hayward. The 5000' runway allows twins and small jets so it gets hectic sometimes at Hayward.
 
Good Afternoon Vance...

I am a low time helicopter pilot and, for some reason, live in fear of interacting with ATC. It always goes well, they have always been helpful, but that just doesn't matter, it gives me the jitters when I have to go into controled air space where someone will be judging my radio work. What with being 'kinda busy and with scratchy radios, I struggle with what I'm hearing and understanding the protocol sometimes. Just look at the 80 pages of Pilot Controller Glossary pages in the 2008 AIM! The most important phrase for me is on page 993, "Speak Slower!". Also very useful is having the airport layout and frequencies on your kneeboard.

Best Regards,
Tom
 
I can only remember one time a controller screwed up with me, which doesn't balance out all the times I screwed up with them.

I was just outside of the New York Class B-plex and receiving flight following, and the guy tried to vector me like an IFR aircraft. "Unable" (most powerful word a pilot has, outside of an emergency). I reminded him I was on a VFR flight plan and had to maintain clear of clouds, he completely lost it. Never heard anything like it before or since. Next time, I flew through the same area squawking 1200 -- which in retrospect, was childish; in that busy airspace, even if it's legal to dummy up on the VFR squawk, it's safer if you're talkin' and squawkin' (to approach/departure, and an assigned code, respectively).

Flight following regularly calls a/c I would never see otherwise. You can hear the trollers' voices rise in pitch when some pilot is busting (or even nearing) airspace or otherwise flying irresponsibly and not talking to them.

Conversely, if I had actually gotten a 30- or 60-day FAA bust every time the controllers caught me screwing up and straightened me out, I'd be back in the air sometime in 2032.

Often when it gets tense, some pilot says something lighthearted and everybody relaxes. The controllers don't have as much leeway to make that kind of comment, most places. They make decent money but their work environment is often very unpleasant. Especially compared to ours! And the responsibility weighs heavily on them -- on the majority of them, anyway, the good ones.

cheers

-=K=-
 
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