RAF 2000? Crash In North Texas

[Arnie Madsen]

LASociety re: your $60 intercom

In agreement with what you are saying I recall a student R22 helicopter pilot who recorded her cockpit interchanges with her instructor. Her plan was to replay them later at home as a type of training aid.

I forget the details now , but they crashed (San Francisco Bay ?) and the investigators used the salvaged tape to determine possible causes.

R22 's had been having a lot of unexplained tailboom / rotor strikes blamed on all the wrong things. Her cheap tape recording changed a lot of thinking all the way to changes being implemented at the factory for the whole R22 program.

If I can find the report again I will post it. very interesting read.

Thanks
Arnie
Bell 47 G2

 

[Steve McGowan]

U Rite KAY

U Rite KAY

Maybe you are right, but the other post on the other thread disqualifies you
as a man and as a CFI for me.

Lets go flying.

EOT her on this forum for me.

I am Not the CFI for you.. no need to say anymore bout that... I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else.

Now you wanna talk about being a man... EOT or whatever you want to say. Ignorance is one thing,,, Stupid is another

Be sure as to what and whom you are speaking of Sir..
ya never know when you'll have to prove yourself to that person

U Fly Safe now.. Ya Hear

 

[magilla]

Good God.

My condolences to the family.

What a loss, both personally to the family, and professionally to us in the gyro community.

I'm so sick and tired of the RAF2000 bashing, and insane defenses of a stabless gyro that is a proven killer.

I could care less WHAT type of gyro you have - you NEED AN HSTAB!!!

By the way: If the RAF2000 were a military aircraft, it would have been grounded with a "Safety Of Flight" message after about the third incident, and not released for flight until the inherent problem with the acft was fully researched and corrected.

There would have never been a directive requiring additional pilot training to counteract an inherent instability of the acft.

I cannot see how "training" can be argued as an acceptable remedy for inherent instability...And I'm a helicopter pilot, so don't give me any crapola about helicopters being inherently unstable - they have systems designed to make it stable before they put pilots in it.

You think that they'd let anyone fly a Blackhawk without SAS, FPS and a Stabiliator? WRONG. Any failure of those systems grounds the aircraft. Period. And hours of flyingone with the systems inop only makes you aware of the requirement for static and dynamic stability. After 2000 hours, and umpteen hundred of hours test-flying the Blackhawk without the above systems operational only serves to piss me off further when people say it is a training issue.

 

[Arnie Madsen]

LASociety:
(Re: cockpit self recording)

Chuck Beaty refered to this under Precession stall , his post # 101 .
Also in Chucks post he has the link to the NSTB findings.

https://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14751&page=7

Important information was gained using the last few seconds of the students micro cassette recording.

 

[karlbamforth]

I agree that a cockpit voice recorder would be a help if finding the cause of a crash, however I do feel that trying to sell it on the back of the death of a small child is a little tacky to say the least.

Back to topic

 

[JByrd]

Before I came over to the thread this evening I was looking at a number of photos of accidents (mostly fixed wing). Some of them have a before and after photo. The before photo has a fine look to it, and aircraft in good shape and sitting safely on the ramp or something with their owner and friends. The after photo shows a violent end, a smashed airplane and sometimes with a blanket over the bodies.

They were doing the same thing we do all the time - or were they? Some of the photos carry a caption. Crashed in fog, crashed after takeoff, crashed after both wings folded and separated, crashed in heavy rain on approach, etc.

I shudder at the thought - that could have been me or perhaps in the future that WILL be me and whoever I take with me. The dead one is always hanging around somewhere, I do not want him in the back seat.

But one thing I try to remember, even with my only 64 hours total time to date. Coming home safely is a combination of factors, I think mostly under our control. I even got crossways with my CFI one day when they wanted me to so S-turns on a right-of-way in the vicinity of multiple comm towers and I had an eyefull of sun. I had to be firm and say "we are not going to do this" and pay for the termination of the training session. The CFI knew where we were, but I did not. It is my job however to get them home safely - regardless. I think we had a better understanding of each other after that flight. It was a quiet ride home though before we had that conversation.

Recently I have had a number of passengers, including my wife and my last three flights with passengers have been night-flights. I feel obligated to spend even more time in preparation for a flight like that and to fly as gently and safe in the margins as possible. Those people (and maybe you sometime) are counting on my judgment to be as absolutely right as can be and if something else should go wrong, then perhaps we face our fates together.

The little one mentioned did not get to live out a full life. How many of us have lived up to 10 times as long? Its heart breaking to think about.

The only thing I can tell myself is that what I did safely yesterday matters little. It is only what I am doing right now that counts. Experience is the best teacher but it is also old news. Things change rapidly and diligence is the only way to give yourself a better opportunity to come out ahead.

Stay safe.

Jim B.

 

[LASsociety]

I don't have anything to sell. I'm not making money on any voice recorders. I just know how to integrate it into a an intercom system to make it work. I guess I should have said if they had one LIKE mine.

I think the death of a small child is WHY I am advocating these things.

When the FAA decides to require equipment in aircraft, they weigh the burden of cost for everyone to upgrade. Since every single aircraft in the world that already has an intercom could go to BestBuy and have a digital recorder that records the last 30-60 hours of cockpit voice while the avionics master is on, and it would all cost less that about $60. Thats not much of a burden if you ask me. Since it isnt installed no paperwork / weight and balance is required. It is as small and lighter than a cell phone.

Why these things arent required equipment I don't know. I guess the FAA isn't exactly early adopters of anything and certainly not trailblazers. The bulk of accidents are in fixed wings, and the root causes are generally well known, so I guess they don't think its necessary. Only gyrocopters seem to crash in a "cloud of mystery" and have "heated debate about how and why"

By the way if anyone wants to criticize what is appropriate to say in this thread in light of a death of a member of YOUR sport community then I think about 75% of this thread needs to be deleted.

 

[Doug Riley]

Harry S., yes, I remember that exchange.

The fault did not lie in your stab down-load, however. You needed first to un-do the "patch" that RAF built into their design to attempt to compensate for the HTL.

The RAF factory spec for hang angle is shallower than standard. You'll recall from our days flying Bensens that the standard for that gyro was 2.5 nose-down at the mast, or 11.5 deg nose-down on the keel.

A HTL gyro, hung at that angle, will fly very nose-down. (The old HTL Air Commands were hung at the Bensen angle and did indeed fly very nose-down at high airspeeds.) Therefore, RAF cut back the hang angle to something around 7 deg. This doesn't fix the stability problem, but it does make the gyro ride more level in cruise.

Once you install a properly down-loaded H-stab ("proper" in this case is 80-plus pounds of load at WOT), you don't need that shallow hang angle anymore. Therefore, the gyro must be re-hung and the head moved back to return to Bensen hang specs. If you fail to do that after you install a loaded stab, you will fly very nose-high because of the old shallow hang angle.

Honest, Harry, I would not B.S. you, and the arithmetic doesn't B.S. one bit. You need to counter that 600 lb. of nose-down torque with something OTHER than rotor thrust to really fix the thing.

Yup, Fergus, I know you know all that. The Forum isn't very searchable for these abstract topics, though, so we have to keep repeating ourselves.

Sorry if it seems like there's an echo in here.

 

[kc0iv]

I don't have anything to sell. I'm not making money on any voice recorders. I just know how to integrate it into a an intercom system to make it work. I guess I should have said if they had one LIKE mine.

I think the death of a small child is WHY I am advocating these things.

When the FAA decides to require equipment in aircraft, they weigh the burden of cost for everyone to upgrade. Since every single aircraft in the world that already has an intercom could go to BestBuy and have a digital recorder that records the last 30-60 hours of cockpit voice while the avionics master is on, and it would all cost less that about $60. Thats not much of a burden if you ask me. Since it isnt installed no paperwork / weight and balance is required. It is as small and lighter than a cell phone.

Why these things arent required equipment I don't know. I guess the FAA isn't exactly early adopters of anything and certainly not trailblazers. The bulk of accidents are in fixed wings, and the root causes are generally well known, so I guess they don't think its necessary. Only gyrocopters seem to crash in a "cloud of mystery" and have "heated debate about how and why"

By the way if anyone wants to criticize what is appropriate to say in this thread in light of a death of a member of YOUR sport community then I think about 75% of this thread needs to be deleted.

I agree with the concept of having a voice recorder. I do however believe more is required just having a $60 recorder to be effective. The recorder should be installed in a fireproof box as well as being in shock proof mount.

Leon
(kc0iv)

 

[Hognose]

My condolences to Bob, Tim, and the other friends and relatives of the victims of this latest mishap.

In time we may have a better idea of the cause of this one. I have an opinion based on the media reports and mishap photos but the photos aren't clear, and initial media reports are often wrong. So I'll keep my opinion to myself.

I do hope the FAA will be wise enough to avail itself of assistance from Jim Mayfield and the PRA Incident Response Team. The IRT report on the Michigan accident was a model of rational and scientific inquiry and significantly extended FAA's capability to unravel that mystery.

I regret our tendency to plunge into argument after every mishap, while the dead are still unshriven and the families are still reeling with shock. There is a skydiving forum which rigidly separates initial/memorial threads from investigative/speculative threads, and it seems to work much better, but it requires a lot of time from administrators to enforce that iron discipline.

The investigation will take time and may or may not produce a definitive answer. Based on what I have seen so far, I believe it will. This will be very small comfort to families who have lost a man in his prime of life and a child of infinite potential. I wish that had not happened, and I shall add my prayers, however insignificant, to those already promised for their souls.

regards

-=K=-

 

[StanFoster]

I personally feel that slapping around the RAF pilots that are leading by example by showing and talking about their stabs...and other mods...is doing more disservice to our gyro community than it is helping. I watch what someone does far more than what they say.

I have talked to many RAF pilots the last several years that have stabs...have other mods...and do not post here. We need to bring these fine folks in....showing by sheer numbers that most do not fly stock RAF/s nor condone doing so.

If I ran my stair business being abrasive towards customers that try to have me build a stairway that doesnt follow code...instead of diplomatically dealing with these people...I would have been out of business a long time ago. People will stay clear of the big stick attitude. We all are adults here and there is gods plenty of info on this topic. Heck...when I was building my RAF in 2003....I KNEW I was going to have a stab. The same stuff was hashing out back then....

Anyway....my two cents. hone:


Stan

 

[barnstorm2]

I watch what someone does far more than what they say.

Heck...when I was building my RAF in 2003....I KNEW I was going to have a stab. The same stuff was hashing out back then....

Stan,

This sounds great and wonderful and looks good on paper but it just won't fly.

On the forum people see what you type more then what you fly.

There are plenty of examples here in just the posting of the past few weeks of RAF pilots with HStabs that still don't understand the actual dangers of PPOs, when they can happen and why the offset-gimbal gives the STOCK RAF a false sense of stability.

There are plenty of web sites and other sources of misinformation and this false information needs to be routinely debunked.

Risking lives on the chance they will pay more attention to what you do then what you say is a risky gamble indeed.

When I was against putting an HStab on my AirCommand I was LOOKING for an excuse not to have to buy it and put it on, I was not making an abstract leap into just seeing what posters were flying. Where it not for the debates on Norms forum and some further help from Mr. Smith and Awad I would NOT have installed that HStab.

Unless the Myths of "training solves everything", "PPOs won't happen if you just chop the throttle", "CLT machines will PPO", "HStabs reduce performance", "CG is irrelevant", "PPOs only happen to low time untrained pilots"...and so on and so on.. don't get dispelled these falsifications will continue to plague our sport and kill our friends.

It takes alot to overcome these misconceptions if you originally got them from another trusted pilot, CFI or factory marketing materials.

Seeing that some other pilots added the "optional" HStab (and they themselves continue to post these myths..) surely is not going to overcome these misconceptions in the mind of most if not all pilots affected by them.

Obvioulsly you survived and went on to make an HStabed machine as have many many others.

It sounds really good Stan, and I wish it were that simple and that way, but I think there is plenty evidence to show that these misconceptions must be publicly examined, explained and discussed to spur any change of understanding..

My 2 cents...

 

[StanFoster]

Tim: Not trying to get any more heat on this topic...but I never said we shouldnt discuss the improvements that a stock RAF needs. I think the subject is constantly being reposted here for the newbies that wonder on this site and that is a good thing. I am talking about getting abrasive...name calling...etc. We all do stupid things....I know I have...but it doesnt go over well when someone here has done some mods to their RAF...and to further erode what slim bonds they have staying here on this forum.

There are many RAF's out there...that fly with stabs. I read here on the forum...and I did my homework and went outside the forum. I was convinced to have a stab...and it was the quiet conversations that influenced me the most.

I will say that I definately went to someone who has the experience with and without a stab on their own RAF...as I was making my decision...over some heated argument between people that dont even fly one. Sure.....you dont have to fly one to be on the right side of the discussion...but when its a full blown...brow beating...chest thumping exchange.....I will listen to actual experienced guys. As for myself....I consulted Ron Menzie....Paul Biggerstaff...these were just two off the top of my head,..but were my main ones. I asked for names of other RAF pilots that had experience with and without a stab. I talked to them....how much improvement with the stab? I would ask them.

Thats where we need to bring these fine folks in here...,they are all over. It would be nice to see them posting pictures of them flying their stabbed machines. That would influence more in my opinion ALONG with rational discussion on the mods needed for a stock RAF.

Anyway....that would and is my approach. I still think I do have the right to say my opinion here.

Stan

 

[Heron]

RAF Owners Association (sounds like Whoaaa)
that is what we need, they put out the truth and the newcomers will follow suit.
The rebels will be kept out and time will make em change (or not)
It is hard to be Official and wrong if we monitor.
Bottom line . . .enough is enough!
Heron

 

[Harry_S.]

Ask the pilots that have flown 'em for hundreds of hours...not the ones that have never flown 'em...SOLO.

Those that sit behind a keyboard and run their claptrap and yet don't have the balls to learn how to fly one are, what's that new generation word...Wusses?!

Put up or shut up.


Cheers

 

[chuter]

I agree with Stan that the extreme brow beating and name calling does more harm than good.
What constitutes brow beating is up for debate.

IMHO Harry is at the other end of the scale; Harry you seem to be saying that unless someone has hundreds of hours in a RAF their opinion has no value.

I disagree. I think posts like that make it easy for people to dismiss posts from anyone who doesn't have hundreds of RAF hours even though they have valuable info to share.

 

[Harry_S.]

IMHO Harry is at the other end of the scale; Harry you seem to be saying that unless someone has hundreds of hours in a RAF their opinion has no value.

Did I say that or did you say that ?! I don't think I said that. If you want to quote me ...then quote me. Don't post what YOU seem to think as to what I'm saying. That irritates me.


I disagree. I think posts like that make it easy for people to dismiss posts from anyone who doesn't have hundreds of RAF hours even though they have valuable info to share.

OK, Chuter...If as you think, someone that has no appreciable time in piloting an RAF, of any configuration, should have as much input as the pilots that have hundreds of hours as PIC of an RAF, you are, pardon me...out in left field. I can readily accept a low time pilots evaluation of an RAF. Most people, including you apparently, cannot. Can you direct me to any of your valuable impartations.


Cheers

 

[chuter]

If as you think, someone that has no appreciable time in piloting an RAF, of any configuration, should have as much input as the pilots that have hundreds of hours as PIC of an RAF, you are, pardon me...out in left field.

That's your opinion; can't help ya with that.

I can readily accept a low time pilots evaluation of an RAF. Most people, including you apparently, cannot.

Huh? What are you talking about? Where did I say that?

Can you direct me to any of your valuable impartations.

I've posted my experience of training in an unstabbed RAF, and I made the stability video linked in my signature: those are my contributions.

Hopefully some will take them along with input from other sources, consider all points, and make an intelligent, informed decision.

If it doesn't agree with my view that's fine; just so they have made an informed decision based on info from many sources, not just from those with hundreds of hours flying the RAF.

I'd say someone should have listened to those desk jockeys that said the space shuttle o-rings wouldn't work when too cold, even though they'd never piloted a shuttle.

 

[fiveboy]

People who smoke (and I was one for a loooong time) never think cigarettes can lead to cancer - until they do.

Connect the dots.

Fiveboy

 

[Harry_S.]

That's your opinion; can't help ya with that.

YEP, THAT'S CORRECT. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE RAF SPECIFICALLY, RIGHT?!


Huh? What are you talking about? Where did I say that?

???


I've posted my experience of training in an unstabbed RAF, and I made the stability video linked in my signature: those are my contributions.

OK.


Hopefully some will take them along with input from other sources, consider all points, and make an intelligent, informed decision.

I AGREE THERE.


If it doesn't agree with my view that's fine; just so they have made an informed decision based on info from many sources, not just from those with hundreds of hours flying the RAF.

EXPERIENCE SPEAKS VOLUMES.


I'd say someone should have listened to those desk jockeys that said the space shuttle o-rings wouldn't work when too cold, even though they'd never piloted a shuttle.

That was after the fact, wasn't it?! I may be mistaken. But what has that got to do with the RAF? Anyway, I don't like analogies.


Cheers