N467TE - Titanium Explorer - Colorado - 4.9.23

[Vance]

With zero headwind and a straight keel and a physical rock back limit of less than 10 degrees or so, a zero ground speed touch down may be difficult.

Jim

I find near zero roll touch downs in a Magni easy to manage despite its straight keel.

 

[GyrOZprey]

To me a GYROPLANE T&G (touch&go) ...HAS ALWAYS been - a momentary FULL STOP ...ie the mains touch, throttle @ idle ...the stick is FULL back until nose wheel comes down AND THEN ...appropriate TO power applied until one sees the rotor RPM climbing ...usually the gyro will try to pop right up again in much shorter roll than the original TO from scratch!
This puzzles me that the owner ran out of runway ...as he told me he made a very nice landing right at the S -end of runway ...prior to the stuffed-up attempt for the second climb-out!

My primary CFI was very strict on the Full-STOP ( NO forwards -roll) ..so called T&G ...control - control BEFORE resuming the next TO & not fluffing around before applying power to roll and allowing the rotor RPM to decay beyond the ...restart (220) ...limit!
He trained the CFI who trained the owner and was the check-flight CFI ...SO I KNOW ..the owner was drilled & verified in correct gyro T&G procedure!
Now I do not know ...what poor habits may have crept in since his training (a year ago!) ...and as he's resumed flying his trike recently ....the gyro-routines muscle memory ...may have become "confused"?????

Rolling T&G's in a gyro ...IS A RECIPIE for LOSS OF CONTROL! I was horrified when flying with a recently transitioned FW CFI ..so proud to have his gyro CFI ... I let him do a landing from the rear ...he landed with throttle ...never pulled it out ,never STOPPED the forwards roll and went straight into to a fast rolling TO ..... on his next landing approach ... so much FELT wrong (all my spidey-senses were screaming) to me that I called "MY-AIRCRAFT- GOING AROUND" and took over for the last approach & landing! I VERY apologetic! Sorry but a 1000+ gyro time with over 3000 landings ... AND MY aircraft at risk ..... NOPE even a CFI with less 50? gyro hours ...I'm doing the landings!

 

[martin-av8r]

Chris , which engine was in this one?

Stock 914 UL ..115HP turbo ...MUST be respected in 3H conditions!

This puzzles me that the owner ran out of runway ...as he told me he made a very nice landing right at the S -end of runway ...prior to the stuffed-up attempt for the second climb-out!

------------------

A small possibility but with the right condition --- severity of the 3H combined ---

for the last touch&go or the second climb-out

from ROTAX

AIRBOX TEMPERATURE SENSOR This sensor monitors the airbox temperatures. The TCU operating program is designed to reduce boost pressure if this sensor indicates the airbox temperature is above 72ºC (162ºF).

On certain installations and geographic areas, high airbox temperatures may be a problem, resulting in less than optimum performance. An intercooler may be required to keep the intake air box temperature down to a reasonable level. Your testing should verify this potential problem with your particular installation without an intercooler. The operator may have to reduce power if the airbox temperature gets too high, otherwise the TCU will do it automatically by opening the wastegate. Some operators have elected to install an additional airbox temperature gauge in the aircraft panel, so the pilot can tell exactly how high the airbox temperature is getting.

https://www.rotax-owner.com/pdf/UNDERSTANDING%20THE%20914%20ROTAX.pdf#:~:text=Testing%20has%20shown%20that%20intake%20air%20temperatures%20below,octane%20fuel%20and%20a%20high%20intake%20air%20temperature.

is it possible to have a look at the TCU data ?

 

[Vance]

What is the difference between a touch and go and a stop and go?

According to aircraft owner and pilots association flight training magazine a touch and go: the aircraft lands and departs on a runway without stopping or exiting the runway.

A stop and go: The aircraft lands and comes to a full stop on the runway, then takes off from that point.

When I ask for the option the control tower at the Santa Maria Public Airport may say; unable stop and go, runway three zero clear for touch and go. They may have another aircraft right behind me. I request to extend my downwind or make a 360 for spacing so I don’t stress my learner and I may be cleared for the option.

According to the AIM “cleared for the option” means cleared to make a touch and go, low approach, missed approach, stop and go or a full stop landing at the discretion of the pilot.

I feel calling it a stop and go even at a non towered airport is helpful for other pilots planning on how long I will be on the runway.

 

[Vance]

Stock 914 UL ..115HP turbo ...MUST be respected in 3H conditions!

This puzzles me that the owner ran out of runway ...as he told me he made a very nice landing right at the S -end of runway ...prior to the stuffed-up attempt for the second climb-out!

------------------

A small possibility but with the right condition --- severity of the 3H combined ---

for the last touch&go or the second climb-out

from ROTAX

AIRBOX TEMPERATURE SENSOR This sensor monitors the airbox temperatures. The TCU operating program is designed to reduce boost pressure if this sensor indicates the airbox temperature is above 72ºC (162ºF).

On certain installations and geographic areas, high airbox temperatures may be a problem, resulting in less than optimum performance. An intercooler may be required to keep the intake air box temperature down to a reasonable level. Your testing should verify this potential problem with your particular installation without an intercooler. The operator may have to reduce power if the airbox temperature gets too high, otherwise the TCU will do it automatically by opening the wastegate. Some operators have elected to install an additional airbox temperature gauge in the aircraft panel, so the pilot can tell exactly how high the airbox temperature is getting.

https://www.rotax-owner.com/pdf/UNDERSTANDING%20THE%20914%20ROTAX.pdf#:~:text=Testing%20has%20shown%20that%20intake%20air%20temperatures%20below,octane%20fuel%20and%20a%20high%20intake%20air%20temperature.

is it possible to have a look at the TCU data ?

Flying a Cavalon with a 914 at a nine thousand foot density altitude I had the boost go away and the engine rpm drop climbing out.

I found it disquieting.

Flew along for a while and the boost returned.

 

[Abid]

Flying a Cavalon with a 914 at a nine thousand foot density altitude I had the boost go away and the engine rpm drop climbing out.

I found it disquieting.

Flew along for a while and the boost returned.

That’s a sensor or wiring harness issue. It should be checked and solved

 

[GyrOZprey]

One HUGE reason for me to get my personal 914- Red TAG converted to the Edge-Performance ...system was repeated issues with the airbox sensors ! For several months prior to the install of my EP fuel injection plus intercooler I had to fly with one of the sensors bypassed - which allowed the turbo to kick-in properly on cue! (Otherwise the Turbo was very delayed & erratic) .

So far I have enjoyed the EP mod to my stock 914 ....the great smooth idle and smooth linear turbo-power ...WITH the HP boost to 115 cruise / 127ish for 5 mins - full boost!
I'm fortunate to be just 4 miles from the US premier EP - agent ..Michael Busenitz @ STOL Creek aviation!

 

[martin-av8r]

I remember a friend in Europe , talk to me about a brand new magni m24 with a 914

in a summer heat wave , in climb out after takeoff the wastegate open

the big power lost force him to land at the end of the runway

this work for him at this time.. , he found it disquieting.

 

[Vance]

That’s a sensor or wiring harness issue. It should be checked and solved

I ran into this with two different 914 powered Cavalons.

One was more inclined than the other to have a power interruption.

Hot day, high density altitude and part way through the mission climbing out.

I am familiar with the five minute limit and it was not that.

 

[nishanh]

One HUGE reason for me to get my personal 914- Red TAG converted to the Edge-Performance ...system was repeated issues with the airbox sensors ! For several months prior to the install of my EP fuel injection plus intercooler I had to fly with one of the sensors bypassed - which allowed the turbo to kick-in properly on cue! (Otherwise the Turbo was very delayed & erratic) .

So far I have enjoyed the EP mod to my stock 914 ....the great smooth idle and smooth linear turbo-power ...WITH the HP boost to 115 cruise / 127ish for 5 mins - full boost!
I'm fortunate to be just 4 miles from the US premier EP - agent ..Michael Busenitz @ STOL Creek aviation!

I'm very interested in this mod, but will wait until the 914 is out of warranty. I was going through the installation manual I found online. It seemed to allude to not being able to run AVGAS with this mod. Is that true as far as you know? Sorry if I'm thread-jacking.

 

[Mike G]

Christine
This:
My primary CFI was very strict on the Full-STOP ( NO forwards -roll) ..so called T&G ...control - control BEFORE resuming the next TO & not fluffing around before applying power to roll and allowing the rotor RPM to decay beyond the ...restart (220) ...limit!
He trained the CFI who trained the owner and was the check-flight CFI ...SO I KNOW ..the owner was drilled & verified in correct gyro T&G procedure!
Now I do not know ...what poor habits may have crept in since his training (a year ago!) ...and as he's resumed flying his trike recently ....the gyro-routines muscle memory ...may have become "confused"?????

would seem to contradict the usual knee jerk reaction "it's all about training". Here you have two, apparently, very competent instructors who taught the pilot what to do and tested him yet he didn't do it.
This again is where the GWS might have helped. he was obviously behind the curve for some time (due to the 3 Hs or a turbo waste gate opening) and a voice in his ear saying your "behind the curve" may have triggered his trained response to lower the nose.

Of course he could still have f..cked it up, in which case we could add a fourth H ....... Hopeless.

Mike G

 

[PJB]

When doing landing practice I encourage learners to touch down well past the end of the runway so an error doesn’t have them touching down short of the runway.

If there is not enough available runway to take off with runway to spare I have them taxi back rather than doing a stop and go.

The practical test standard for climb out indicated airspeed is plus or minus five knots in part because the FAA feels airspeed for climb out is important.

It appears to me roughly a third of gyroplane mishaps are during takeoff and climb out.

Indeed but likely care is needed to fully articulate what you mean because you can clearly see a wide range available in the highlighted text.

Well past the upwind "end" of the runway or else likely in the fence... what is "well past" "not enough" "available" "runway to spare" etc etc. It is a very easy and understood conversation with those with experience it is an accident in the making with a student without very clear instruction.

The problem really is that the low time pilot who returns after some break is really in a worse position than a student because he tries to recall some things and likely remembers not enough of it. For that reason I genuinely never allowed my students to do touch and go or even touch and stop as described because there are far too many caveats around runway position, RRPM, wind, etc.... They are accidents waiting to happen in a gyroplane.

 

[EI-GYRO]

The one and only time I did a touch-and-go, I was astonished how much runway was eaten up in the transition from landing to picking up the rotor rpm and machine speed and taking off again.
My conclusion was that there are too many variables at work, and it was something best (and easily) avoided.
Throw in 3H and it sounds very likely to have a poor outcome.

 

[Tyger]

I know some folks are quite opposed to them, but I did a LOT of "crow hops" during my training, often to at least 100ft high. We could usually get in 4 or 5 TO&Ls on a 7000 ft runway. It got me pretty good at judging exact landing points, and knowing when I no longer had enough runway left to do another takeoff.

 

[Mayfield]

I know some folks are quite opposed to them, but I did a LOT of "crow hops" during my training, often to at least 100ft high. We could usually get in 4 or 5 TO&Ls on a 7000 ft runway. It got me pretty good at judging exact landing points, and knowing when I no longer had enough runway left to do another takeoff.

Although they have fallen out of favor in recent years, I agree the crow hop can be a valuable tool.

 

[Sv.grainne]

I know some folks are quite opposed to them, but I did a LOT of "crow hops" during my training, often to at least 100ft high. We could usually get in 4 or 5 TO&Ls on a 7000 ft runway. It got me pretty good at judging exact landing points, and knowing when I no longer had enough runway left to do another takeoff.

I did a bunch of crow hops while I was doing my transition training and still do stop n gos.

 

[Abid]

I remember a friend in Europe , talk to me about a brand new magni m24 with a 914

in a summer heat wave , in climb out after takeoff the wastegate open

the big power lost force him to land at the end of the runway

this work for him at this time.. , he found it disquieting.

I doubt the heatwave in Europe could produce 160 F plus temps in airbox but it is possible. He may want to install a small inter cooler. It goes down to 80 HP. It is possible to maintain altitude with 80 HP even in a typical 2 seat gyroplane specially 1-up

 

[Abid]

I know some folks are quite opposed to them, but I did a LOT of "crow hops" during my training, often to at least 100ft high. We could usually get in 4 or 5 TO&Ls on a 7000 ft runway. It got me pretty good at judging exact landing points, and knowing when I no longer had enough runway left to do another takeoff.

100 feet high isn't what I would call a crow hop.

 

[WaspAir]

I always pictured staying in ground effect. Guess they've got some impressive crows back East.

 

[Tyger]

OK, well that's what my CFI called them, and he's being instructing for a LONG time. They didn't all go that high, of course. It's just any time you take off and land multiple times during one pass over/on a runway.
Most were at a quiet rural airport, but we also did some at a towered airport. I asked if the tower controller was going to mind. He said, No, they treat each takeoff and each landing as a separate "aiirport operation", and that's good for the airport's stats.
I don't know any crows that weigh 600 lbs either...