gyrocopter service ceiling

I'm a new gyrocopter pilot looking for my own machine. The field elevation here is ~10,000' MSL. Could anyone give me some advice about which gyrocopters have resonable performance/service ceilings for mountain flying? Thanks for the help.

I would be looking for a turbo to help keep your HP up.

Mark,
Your geographic locale severely limits your choices.
I would go with nothing less than the Rotax 914 turbo on a light weight machine such
as a Dominator. If Leadville is your home base, you will be flying on the edge of legality
(pertaining to Sport Pilot regs if you are so licensed). Cost will be the largest contributing factor and the above suggestion is not cheap.
Also consider that whatever rotors you choose, at your altitude, you will need approximately 3 feet more of blade length up there than compared to sea level norm.
Good luck and safe flying,

Basically you'll need to move if you want to fly gyro's - sorry.

I have flown at 10,000 density alt several times,starting at 10,000 ft elevation and then

adding density alt will probably be more altitude than you will want to try to fly in on a

regular basis.

Best regards,eddie.....

Nothing to it really....

Nothing to it really....

Flown into Leadville with a gyro on a number of occasions. Usually through Weston Pass, once through Mosquito Pass. The key is power. You need to have an engine that will at least turbo normalize to the highest point that you will have nearby plus another 1000-2000 feet. The only engine that I feel comfortable with is the Rotax 914, but others may suffice. Long blades, light weight and power. And learning to avoid mountain burbles, downdrafts and not to fly up canyons. It actually is quite a kick to do low level crossings of high mountain peaks. The mountain goats look at you like you are crazy. Hmmm, never thought of it, maybe they are right. Nah.

Yea, 10k feet in a gyro are nothing to worry about if you have the right equipment. This means mostly enough power and a rotor which won't overspeed at high altitudes. The latter requirement most probably means that you have to get a rotor that's about 3 feet larger in diameter than you normally would at sea level.

Since at that altitude you will be flying in and around high mountains, you should get some instructions on mountain flying techniques. There are conditions under which no amount of power is enough to get you out of trouble.

-- Chris.

I would recommend a single seat. The main gyro that I think would fit the bill well is the AVIOMANIA. Equip it with a 914 Rotax. The altitude compensation with the turbo will give you the power you need. A slightly longer rotor and you will be zoomin!!!

There are a lot of other variables to consider, but I am confident of that recommendation.

If you need or want a 2 seater, options are much more restrictive. Primarily a density altitude issue with limited engine options in today's market.

The gyro that I will be building will be based out of a field that the elevation is 5620'. On a hot day it can reach DA's over 9000 pretty quick. This is why I went with a 140 HP Yamaha to give me the power I need. Simply put, I can't afford the rotax.

I respectfully disagree

I respectfully disagree

Fly Army said:

Basically you'll need to move if you want to fly gyro's - sorry.

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As a general rule this is correct. However with the right gyro, blades and engine combo it is very possible.

A person would be foolish to try it with something like a benson or with an engine rated at 70-80 HP at sea level. But, again, with the right combo it is a non-event, just limited.

Just read a recent thread on the forum that an MTO Sport recently set a new altitude record of 26,600 ft in Namibia. So, there are machines that can handle the higher elevations.

thomasant said:

Just read a recent thread on the forum that an MTO Sport recently set a new altitude record of 26,600 ft in Namibia. So, there are machines that can handle the higher elevations.

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I have never been up at 26,000 feet in an MTO but I did get up to 15,000 ft MSL in its predecessor, the MT03, powered by a Rotax 912. It was a day late in May when ground temps were around 70° F. I flew with 3/4 full tanks and solo (about 410 kg take off weight, with 450 being MTOW). I flew over the Grand Canyon at altitudes between 12,500 and 14,500 ft MSL. Outside temps at that altitude were close to freezing, let's say they were 40° F. That gives a DA of around 17,000 ft. Climb performance at these conditions was marginal, say about 100 fpm. The sun was shining and there was some thermal activity along the way up to that altitude which I used to advantage. I took off from Valley airport, about 20 nm south of the Grand Canyon rim and had reached 12,500 feet at the time I reached the south rim.

The 26,000 ft altitude reached in an MTOSport were certainly not in standard conditions. And I strongly suspect that thermals or maybe waves helped the climb along quite a bit. It is a pretty darn high altitude reachable under a specific set of fortuitous circumstances. Machines that perform comparatively well at high altitudes are (a) light, (b) have a powerful and turbocharged engine, and (c) a good sized rotor. Pilots that perform well at these altitudes are (a) light, (b) have a knowledge of the perils of high altitude operations, (c) know how to use every help from the atmosphere to eke out the maximum climb performance, (d) know their machine well so that they can fly at the best climb speed (Vy) for the given circumstances.

-- Chris.

-- Chris.

Hi Mark, as you can see there are gyros out there that will perform at alt and gyro pilots who do fly at those sort of elevations.

Not sure it will be easy finding an instructor who instructs at those sort of elevations which is a little bit of a bummer as mountain flying does require additional skills whether it be fixed wing or rotary that you are doing.

It is possible, just a little more difficult for you than the average guy who wants to get into gyros. If you do go and get instruction, chances are that it will be at lower elevations, then when you go back home you will be operating just that bit closer to the edge of a standard gyros envelope.

They are not normally known for their sparkling performance or good climb rate, however there are machine out there that can perform well at altitude, but they will be more expensive than the average machine as the engine cost and rotor cost will be greater.

If cost is no factor, and it generally is, go and get your Instruction, at as high an elevation as you can find, You don't have any previous experience listed on your profile just indicate you are new to gyros but when you have the licence and machine, probably a good idea to get some mountain flying instruction in a fixed wing in the area you will be flying your gyro in unless you already have that experience..

The gentleman who springs to mind when talking of light aircraft and mountain flying is Steve Fosset. A man who held multiple aviation records and extremely experienced pilot killed in a Super Decathelon while mountain flying. Informed speculation, the conditions he flew into exceeded the performance of the aircraft and it was CFIT (controlled flight into terrain). The cautionary moral of that being that as good as any one is, operating at the outer edges of the envelope is more dangerous, and you unfortunately are geographically are towards the outer edge.

I'm impressed at 26,000' for the MTO, getting any aircraft towards the limits takes skill and effort.

Thanks again to everyone for giving their thoughts about this. I'm considering trailering to a lower field elevation on the Front Range or west slope, at least initially.

Mark

That would be a sensible solution.

It seems as though you have the gyro, any luck with an Instructor or have you completed some training with one already?

Hope it all goes well for you.

Just Need more power and bigger rotors

Just Need more power and bigger rotors

Mark,

There is a PRA Chapter in CO. and the first thing you need to do is join that chapter and start hanging around others who are flying Gyros at higher elevations. You will be able to learn everything you need to know if you will get around people who are already doing what you want to do.

You can certainly fly a Gyro at your elevation but you will need to have an appropriate sized turbo charged engine so you keep the power you need to fly at the higher elevations or you can go the route of using a more powerful engine than you would normally need (at lower elevations) so that when you loose 30% of your power due to the density altitude, you still have enough power to fly safely. So if you are wanting to fly a single seat Gyro, your two best alternatives would be a turbocharged Rotax 912 or the 120 HP Yamaha Snowmobile engine that is becoming very popular out here in the west where we have to deal with higher density altitude situations on a regular basis. (Todd Rieck lives there in CO. and can fill you in on the details of that engine conversion and help you go that direction if you so choose)

You really ought to come to the Rotors Over the Rockies, Fly In in Brigham City UT. on June 10 -14, and meet others who are doing what you want to do and see some examples of Gyros that fly in higher altitudes on a regular basis. You can get more details at "utahrotorcraft.org" or give me a call and I can answer any questions you have about the Event. (801-628-7598) And you will be able to get a training flight in a Gyro to see how you like it. If you love where you live, you will really love flying at Brigham city, UT as we have mountains just minutes away but also lots of flat easy terrain to fly over also. Lots to see and very scenic, plus great facilities. I hope we see you there.

As a side note, I am unaware of any current gyro CFI that has a aircraft that is capable of doing training at 10K of altitude. Does one exist? Just cause a gyro can go that high does not mean it could be used. My single seat 582 SportCopter has been taken to about 10K(9800 feet), The last 1,000 feet of climb took nearly 10 minutes! Realistically it can barely take off above 7,000 feet DA with more than half a tank of fuel. The highest airport in California, Big Bear (L70), at 6752 feet, is major struggle when warm outside for my gyro. It would take a big HP motor to get a two place gyro airborne from 10K. Most R-44's can't handle more than 2 people above 7K , and R-22's can't get off with two people and full fuel during summer months according to pilots I have talked with.

Attached is a picture flying into the pass for Big Bear lake in the winter time, and yes, it was damn cold flight.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH

Howdy Mark,

Welcome to the forum.

Not sure if you are aware or not but you have a fella just a couple miles down the road from you in Salida that flies a Xenon with a 912 turbo. Look up Rob Dubin, he goes by "ventana7" on this forum.

It's good to see some gyro interest/activity in your area. Your back yard is my favorite vacation destination. Between the skiing at Cooper, the Arkansas River, the BLM land and the overall beauty of the terrain, finding gyro guys in the neighborhood makes that much better...

As for a gyro, I'd think Sport Copter Vortex M912 with the proper rotor would do well at that altitude. https://www.sportcopter.com/

I'd think Sport Copter Vortex M912 with the proper rotor would do well at that altitude.

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Not likely...My S/C is much heavier (about 170 LBS) than my Dominator was with the 912ULS and it is marginal up here in Denver. Fly's well in the cooler weather but I seriously doubt that heavy a machine would perform adequately (with enough safety margin of power) at 10K'. Don't mean to burst your bubble Wiplash but I speak from personal experience in both machines.
He will require a lighter machine with as much power as he can afford. Nothing short of a turbo normalized engine will give him that. Most low altitude (speaking geographically) pilots don't realize the reality of high altitude operations until they've experience both.
One can never have enough HP under the hood in my opinion. You don't necessarily have to use it but it's sure a good insurance policy just the same.
Both a Vette & a VW can enter a freeway at the same speed but when you look into your left rearview mirror and see that semi that doesn't want to let you in....which would you rather have?
At altitude, that scenario is a necessity; not an option.

mark treidel said:

Don't mean to burst your bubble Wiplash but I speak from personal experience in both machines.

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No burst bubble here, I have no reason to doubt your experience with the machines or the high altitude. I'm glad you chimed in. Many times, the biggest strides toward finding a solution to a problem is through other people's experiences.

mark treidel said:

Both a Vette & a VW can enter a freeway at the same speed but when you look into your left rearview mirror and see that semi that doesn't want to let you in....which would you rather have?

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The VW? Never cared for Vettes and the VW would be cheaper to repair and/or replace :hippie:

mark treidel said:

He will require a lighter machine with as much power as he can afford. Nothing short of a turbo normalized engine will give him that.

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Like a KB2 with a SuperMac and 25-27 foot McCutchen Sky Wheels maybe???

Doug,

Thanks for the invitation. I will try to get out to Utah for the June Fly-In.

Mark