PRA dues & the magazine and your thoughts on them

fiveboy said:

I will skip to the chase. I LOVE being a gyro pilot. I am a member but I think the PRA is almost irrelevant. This is my opinion only:

PRA needs to become a business.
The business is not producing that anemic magazine, its promoting and extending Gyro popularity, image and safety awareness.

Dues should not be reduced, that is de-evolution - they should be used more intelligently. $50 is 15 gallons of gas or on average 3 hours of flying. Small price to pay.... if we are getting something important.

Why are there no discounts with suppliers for being a member?
Why are there no coordinated events nationwide or internationally?
Why is there no real marketing of items for enhanced PRA profit?
Why is there no support for new CFI's (ala scholarships or low interest loans)?
An airport that serves very very few is self serving. Who is benefiting from its existence? Once a year?!
Why is there no coordinated public image, information and presence within GA?
Where are the affiliations with larger orgs (EAA or AOPA)?

This has gone along like some backwoods mom and pop operation and now its folding under the weight of mismanagement... plain and simple.

The forum (or one like it) should be PRA only.
There should be real tangible benefits to members and incentives to become a member.

The politics, bickering, name calling, innuendo, etc should be banned outright on any PRA related forum. It should be a source for hard information about one thing - Gyros.

PS If $50 is a lot of money to you for a year and promoting what you love then you shouldnt be in aviation. How much do you pay for a new tire, in dinners out, for donuts over a year?

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Thats all good stuff, but 50$ is too much for alot of people. The PRA has 1300 dues paying members, this forum has over 3600 members. Why aren't all 3600 forum members also PRA members? I believe most people are looking at it as a basis magazine subscription, and not one worth 50 bucks a year. Cut it in half, give more content and more real reasons to join, I think we would get alot more people to join / renew.

One magazine?....one...one per the whole year? no-no-no-no-no.....I need something to read on the throne....even if it is after I download-print it!

Friendly said:

Dean,
In the interest of safety, I agree with the airports, in the interest of a tax payer and member of PRA, I don't agree. The cost of insurance for a meet would be much less than purchasing an airport that only a few will enjoy due to the logistics. 1300 members and we can not use a public airport that is paid for with our taxes. As much as you hate um, Lawyers can change more laws than lobbyist. As far as "we are in control" , yes Bear will attest to that and others who read the rules and said why go if I can't fly or maybe not get to fly. When is PRA going to take on some of these airports. We already got to have a key to get into most all of the airports in Louisiana. The way I see it, you moved PRA to Mentone, are taking away the Mag and saying HEY come be a part of us. I apologize for the Negative Tone of this post. I am a member of PRA and appreciate what Greg has Done to help us with the FAA. And for the People who are at least part of the group that volunteers, I am humbled by your work ethics.

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Mark, you are smarter than this....

You do understand that the PRA needs to have a office somewhere to conduct business???

You also understand that no matter where that office is, there will be either rent or mortage payments that would need to be made???

If you had a choice to pay rent or a mortage for a office in a strip mall, or pay the same amount for a office on a airport with a nice paved runway with hangars etc..... which one would be the wiser choice?


Does it suck that Mentone is not in your backyard? Not in my backyard? Not in Scott Hegars backyard? Sure it does. I hated that it was a 700 mile drive for me to go there last week. Cost me over 600$ in gasoline alone. But it is a place, and it was finally paid off a year or so ago.

The only real problem is now that it is paid off, we were supposed to be able to use the money that was being used to make the payments on a bigger and better magazine, but at the same time the property was paid off, we have lost over 600 members and counting, and the income has tightened too tight to afford to make the magazine any better. And my point with this thread to begin with, is I believe the magazine is what will finally do us in, we can't afford to keep printing it..........

GyroRon said:

I think the whole idea of a life member is horse$hit. And to have the PRA fail because a few people just don't want to give up their magazine, is retarded.

And Dean, no one, at least not me anyway, is asking for the PRA to stop producing Rotorcraft magazine. I am just suggesting to everyone to make it a online magazine where we can get far more content, far more issues, and at a hugely reduced cost to the PRA.

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You can think what you like but the PRA 'elders' created the life members and then that member class was eliminated a few years ago. But, the PRA leadership understands that there is a contract to satisfy with the existing life member class. The magazine for life was the reward for making a 15 year committment to the PRA by buying a life membership.

Even though I'm a life member, I happen to send in my $50 dues the month of my birthday since that is a good reminder that is it that time of the year. There are other life members who do that also although not the month of my birthday!

While buying a life membership made good economic sense, I couldn't afford to do that when I first became a member and didn't buy one until 2001. That means I had already been a member for 34 years and then I didn't buy the membership for economic reasons; I did it because I believed in the value of the organization for us rotorcraft enthusiasts.

The organization won't fail because of the hard copy magazine. It will only fail if the members don't support the organization by promoting it and bringing in more members and taking on some of the work required to generate revenue. That means all of us have work to do at our local level to keep this organization alive.

Guys one more idea to generate revenue would be raffle tickets. Winner of the gyro (financed and built by PRA) would be drawn at 2010 Bensen days. It has to be UL so even unlicensed winner who is not a gyro enthusiast yet could win it and fly it. It would come with a certain amount of training. Say a ticket would be 5 bux a piece. Advertise it in other flying magazines and have an online source of ordering the tickets. It could generate a lot of revenue. Just an idea....

Dean_Dolph said:

The organization won't fail because of the hard copy magazine. It will only fail if the members don't support the organization by promoting it and bringing in more members and taking on some of the work required to generate revenue. That means all of us have work to do at our local level to keep this organization alive.

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In other words, you paid for a life membership and by golly you expect a paper magazine to show up in your mail box till you die. Screw what that does to the rest of us right?

We should just pay more and more dues each year, and talk our buddies into sending in their dues moneys too, to insure that you can still get your paper magazine.....

I pay less than 10 bucks a year for my favorite magazines, Cycle World and Car and Driver.... The only reason I pay the 50 bucks for PRA dues is because I am a Chapter president and it is required and also to be able to maintain membership status, not for the magazine. But once I learned of how much of my 50 bucks goes to paying for the magazine, it will make it EXTREMELY difficult to part with another 50 bucks next summer.....

choppergabor

Raffles are a great way to raise some serious money,BUT raffling off a homebuilt aircraft where some one with no training or experience could hop in and try to fly it, raises the monster word LIABILITY LIABILITY. Unless there is some way around that, it would be a no go. You could bet you life on it if someone got injured or killed in that machine you could kiss PRA good by and those that built it.

Tony

1300 and a certainly small percentage without computers. Over 3000 here who obviously have computers. Sounds like online magazine time to me.

Keep the dues at $50 - but kick $20 back to the Chapters either in the form of cash or support.

Lower the dues to $35 for those without a Chapter

Go monthly with the online magazine.

Reach out to experimental helicopters.

Reach out to R/C gyro groups

Lease the airport.

Make copies of the magazine at kinko's for the computer impaired life members.

No more new life members. (without computers)

Create a PRA forum that required a membership, but supervise it and to cater to the interested and newcomers, make it like www.sawmillcreek.com
You can read, but you can't search or post without a membership. Trial memberships are available that last a few days.

Add more fund raising.

Develop a system to have a presence at more airshows, flyins, etc...

Hold a large item raffle to raise money to sponsor CFI's -- motorcycle, engine, etc. . .

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Just a summary of the ideas that I like.

Notes from an "Old Snort"

Notes from an "Old Snort"

This has been interesting reading.

Back in the late 60's my fixed wing flight instructor nearly demanded I join the AOPA. He told me the AOPA was the only organization, with enough power, to watch over our interests when they were being threatened by the FAA.

In 1974, when I was learnng to fly a gyro, Dick Wunderlich STRONGLY encouraged me to join the PRA, for much the same reason.

I joined the PRA, attended my first convention, and became a life member. I loved flying gyros, gyro people and the PRA for supporting the sport I loved. It seemed like a natural thing to do.

By the way, the PRA was headquartered in California, thousands of miles from Chicago.

Thanks to your support, I am once again, on the PRA BOD. I will re-read each post in this thread and make comment where I feel it is appropriate. I welcome your comments on mine. I am in this for us, the rotorcraft pilots, PRA member or not.

WHY said:

choppergabor

Raffles are a great way to raise some serious money,BUT raffling off a homebuilt aircraft where some one with no training or experience could hop in and try to fly it, raises the monster word LIABILITY LIABILITY. Unless there is some way around that, it would be a no go. You could bet you life on it if someone got injured or killed in that machine you could kiss PRA good by and those that built it.

Tony

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Tony how about a waver? They do the same thing with the Harleys they raffle out. And as I said it would come with some training. Well it was just an idea of something I see right now an organization is doing (BADD Bikers Agaist Drunk Driivers) and they are making a kill with it. Apparently when economy is bad people tend to rather invest into luck like buying a raffle ticket.

freebird said:

1300 and a certainly small percentage without computers. Over 3000 here who obviously have computers. Sounds like online magazine time to me.

Keep the dues at $50 - but kick $20 back to the Chapters either in the form of cash or support.

Lower the dues to $35 for those without a Chapter

Go monthly with the online magazine.

Reach out to experimental helicopters.

Reach out to R/C gyro groups

Lease the airport.

Make copies of the magazine at kinko's for the computer impaired life members.

No more new life members. (without computers)

Create a PRA forum that required a membership, but supervise it and to cater to the interested and newcomers, make it like www.sawmillcreek.com
You can read, but you can't search or post without a membership. Trial memberships are available that last a few days.

Add more fund raising.

Develop a system to have a presence at more airshows, flyins, etc...

Hold a large item raffle to raise money to sponsor CFI's -- motorcycle, engine, etc. . .

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Just a summary of the ideas that I like.

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Great post, I like nearly all of it. The only part I disagree with is the dues pricing. I honestly think the 50$ number is what is holding many back from joining or renewing. It is simply too much. Reduce it to a level where nearly everyone can afford it or find it simply small enough of a price that they feel no need to justify it..... if the PRA rises and things warrant it, then raise the dues a little each year or two to get us back up to 50$. Maybe by then with 4000-6000 or even 10,000 members, we can afford to publish a paper magazine again.

The idea of using some of the dues money to fund local PRA chapters would be great. If the chapters had a annual income from PRA to use to promote growth, I would think alot could be done. It would be tricky though to make sure the money is being used in a honest and proper way

GyroRon said:

1) I believe the PRA is down to 1300 members roughly. I have also been told it costs the PRA 42$ per member to send out the magazine. This leaves 8 dollars change for the PRA, even less if you paid with a credit card or Paypal.


2) But the one thing that I can't shake from my visit to Mentone and being able to sit in on a life member meeting and a Board meeting, and talking privately to a few board members, is this...... I don't think the PRA can be in the magazine publishing business anymore.

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Ron,
1) I just did the math based on the latest PRA P&L report. It looks like roughly $35.00 from each member's dues pays for the magazine. Still a very bad ratio.

2) Consider this, the PRA magazine should be beyond self-sustaining, it should turn a profit. Making money is why MOST magazines exist.

As with most of the PRA's problems, increased membership would prove to be the best solution to the magazine problem.

I would guess the magazines circulation has dropped in half over the last 20 years, yet advertising rates have increased. We will not self-sustain the magazine through advertising. PRA magazine advertising is basically a cash donation to the PRA.

If the website did have a vast array of content such as a forum, vendor stores, on line magazine, members stores, etc. and money is an issue then there could be a possibility of layered memberships where according to your membership level you get access to certain features. Also if the vendors would work with us they could offer discounts towards higher membership levels. Those that want a printed magazine could be in the higher level and recieve the magazine printed once a year to include each volume for that year. This way if someone just wanted to use the forum and read the online mag would pay only for what they get, ones that want more simply pay more.

So what happens to the Lifetime members when PRA gets sucked dry and no longer exists because they keep pouring money down the drain publishing a magazine?

I say put the magazine online in PDF format and put the membership money to better uses elsewhere.

GyroRon said:

Mark, you are smarter than this....

You do understand that the PRA needs to have a office somewhere to conduct business???

You also understand that no matter where that office is, there will be either rent or mortage payments that would need to be made???

If Does it suck that Mentone is not in your backyard? Not in my backyard? Not in Scott Hegars backyard? Sure it does. I hated that it was a 700 mile drive for me to go there last week. Cost me over 600$ in gasoline alone. But it is a place, and it was finally paid off a year or so ago.
And my point with this thread to begin with, is I believe the magazine is what will finally do us in, we can't afford to keep printing it..........

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yes Ron, As I said I am a member, it is not for the Mag. It is for the Nat. Org. to provide a base for the state Chapter to grow. How much would an office cost us to conduct business. Much less than airport. I think, maybe not.
I got my last issue of the Mag and it had our Gonzales Flyin in it. Which preceded Bensen Days or was very, very close to it. At least it made this years edition. The sad part it someone probably busted their butt just to get that out. Why would a on line Mag be any better. We could not even sign up for over a year.
Yes it sucks because it is not in my backyard. Because the cost,time and mileage is not feasable for someone struggling with 50 fees. When will the organization catch up to CLT?
If you are going to end the mag, you better have something to replace it with or you will see more people dropping out as the effects of our economy gets worse. Its not the money for dues that people are complaining about, it was the complaint on deaf ears.
Where is PRA advertised in any other magazine, Where is PRA at any of the Local Chapter Meets, Where is the builder assistance, buyer assistance, training assistance. Even the list of CFI is so wrong and outdated it just sends more disinformation. All that being said, I will remain a member and if lucky when I retire I will attend Mentone, El Marige, ROC and Bensen Days again, God willing. If a mag is too expensive, how about a DVD with interviews, flying footage, events, That can be played over and over again if we like. I was very impress with Bill Wiegers 5 dollar video of Mentone. Not that it was of the quailty of Shawns, but someone made an effort to capture it all and send back with Bill the same day he left.
He was very impressed with Todds discussion on the Yamaha. It would be nice to have it recorded. PRA is so far behind.
But if I keep kicking the only horse in town, I'm going be walking, so let me feed, this poor animal until its healthy again.

Minnesota_Mike said:

1)I don't mind the $50- yearly...its a drop in the bucket...and would rather see ALL OF IT go toward PRA doing what it needs to in order to build the community up again rather than almost all to just the magazine.

1) The online version of the magazine is the best thing that can happen...virtual with NO printing costs IS THE WAY TO GO.

2) If the organization is strapped- then cutting the dues price is not the answer...rather- plow ALL of the dues into doing what needs to be done for all of us members.

3) A presence at Oshkosh and other prominent Air Shows might help spread the word.

4) Marketing of "Killer" "T" shirts, hats, patches, Videos, etc. has to happen to capture precious revenue for our organization .

5) Sale's of ready made DVD's containing all back issues would be a treasure I'd pay $20- for in an eye blink...just to have access to ALL those great issues and articles..!!!!

Mike

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Mike,
1) Saving money will do nothing to increase membership.

2) If we dropped the dues 20% and saw an increase in membership of 20%, the cost of the magazine would go down and the likelyhood of more magazine content would increase.

3) A PRA presence at Oshkosh or SNF, etc would run between $500-$1,000. dollars. We would have to sell a lot of memberships to get that money back. We used to sell memberships at Oshkosh, if we sold 20 per year, I'd be surprised.

4) We have been selling PRA "rotorwear" for years. I think we currently offer the best looking apparel I can remember. The new, tan pRA polo shirts were very much in evidence at Mentone 2009. Jan - June 2008 sales netted us $205. in income (no idea of the cost or profit). Better marketing and an increased membership would help this income stream.

5) If your chapter is like most (helpful) someone would buy the DVD, copy it, and give it to their fellow members. This went on with Bensen plans like you wouldn't believe.
I sure do appreciate your comments and welcome a response to mine.

fiveboy said:

I will skip to the chase. I LOVE being a gyro pilot. I am a member but I think the PRA is almost irrelevant. This is my opinion only:

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Hey, everything here is someone’s opinion other than a few suspect numbers!

fiveboy said:

PRA needs to become a business.
The business is not producing that anemic magazine, its promoting and extending Gyro popularity, image and safety awareness.

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Well, sorta, kinda….. The anemic magazine could serve as a promotion device if there was enough money to print extra copies to send to places of impact. And since we were and are setup as non profit that means we can’t be a business although good business practices should be employed. The product/purpose of the PRA is partly stated in the ‘old’ bylaws which are still on the PRA web site but I understand they will soon be replaced by the updated ones. I haven’t seen them so don’t know what they say as far as purpose.

fiveboy said:

Dues should not be reduced, that is de-evolution - they should be used more intelligently.

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It is my belief that we are lucky to have Robert Rhymer as our treasurer.

It is also my belief that he saved this organization several years ago when he provided the financial analysis needed to show what hard choices had to be made to keep the organization running. That was when the magazine became an issue (no pun intended!) and associated costs were reduced by eliminating issues, pages and color. About the same time, there were a half a dozen or so people who stepped up and provided cash to keep us running until the cost reductions took effect. It is my understanding that those people have been repaid. The airport mortgage has been paid off and I think the magazine pages have started to be increased and there is no doubt that we are starting to see more color. So, it is apparent to me that we are in better shape than we were at one time. There have been compliments directed at the magazine here, during this past year, rather than all the complaints that were being registered in the time after the reduction in mag size/frequency was started.

I believe that as long as Robert Rhymer is treasurer that the information to use our money ‘intelligently’ will be available. And if everyone will review the credentials of our new prez that T. Milton provided then you will understand that we have a successful business man at the helm. What is the saying about ‘You are in good hands….’?!!

fiveboy said:

Why are there no discounts with suppliers for being a member?
Why are there no coordinated events nationwide or internationally?
Why is there no real marketing of items for enhanced PRA profit?
Why is there no support for new CFI's (ala scholarships or low interest loans)?
An airport that serves very very few is self serving. Who is benefiting from its existence? Once a year?!
Why is there no coordinated public image, information and presence within GA?
Where are the affiliations with larger orgs (EAA or AOPA)?

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I guess I’m not in a position to know all the reasons that these things haven’t or aren’t being done or even if they should, especially when it come to large org affiliation. But, finances are a big part of the problem with CFI scholarships/loans. When the PRA had a larger membership then it offered those scholarships. Respected CFI Chris Burgess was a recipient of one.

Then it is an all volunteer organization that depends on ‘us-ins’ to get the work done. I don’t know all the volunteer projects that are being worked on so have no idea if someone has taken on the chore of contacting ‘suppliers’, to see if they will offer member discounts, or have assumed marketing responsibility.

All-In has done a remarkable job of creating a volunteer task force to address a lot of issues but whether there is a large enough number to take on all these items at once is open to question. The two resources of money and people have always been in short supply for the PRA. Thanks to John, we are probably is the best shape we have ever been as far as the people resource.

The ‘coordination of events’ is something that the chapters should be doing automatically and doesn’t require any international leadership help. And what coordination is required? There are a handful of chapters that pull off annual events with little or no assistance from anyone outside their chapter. They have the use of this Forum, the PRA magazine, the PRA web site and peer to peer contact with other chapters to promote and coordinate where they need it. They don’t use all these resources but they are available.

We forget at times that the U.S. is a HUGE country as European visitors soon find out when the visit us. So, that means we are spread out all over creation which creates logistics problems with coordination and help outside the local chapter area.

And as far as the airport is concerned, it is paid for, it generates enough income (anyone need to buy some hay?!) to pay its own way and, as it has been announced here, ways to use it to generate revenue are being explored. It is a great asset to have and the whole organization benefits even if all members never use it. You don’t hear about EAA members complaining about Oshkosh. And the PRA has its EAA equivalent regional events but obviously on a smaller scale.

fiveboy said:

This has gone along like some backwoods mom and pop operation and now its folding under the weight of mismanagement... plain and simple.

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Well, yeah, it was founded as a ‘mom and pop’ trade association to promote Bensen Aircraft. And it isn’t close to folding but the warnings have gone out that it could. And unless a person has served on the board or otherwise been close to the action then they aren’t in a position to say that there has been mismanagement. There probably have been decisions made that in hind sight should have been different but that is a long way from ‘mismanagement’.

fiveboy said:

The forum (or one like it) should be PRA only.
There should be real tangible benefits to members and incentives to become a member.

The politics, bickering, name calling, innuendo, etc should be banned outright on any PRA related forum. It should be a source for hard information about one thing - Gyros.

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Well, I guess whenever we get a PRA members only forum we will have to see what rules are laid down. I, for one, don’t have a problem with honest debate like is happening here but it very well could be tagged as ‘bickering’. And we have to remember the PRA is a rotorcraft association and not a just a gyro association.

fiveboy said:

PS If $50 is a lot of money to you for a year and promoting what you love then you shouldnt be in aviation. How much do you pay for a new tire, in dinners out, for donuts over a year?

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You left out smokes and booze!

Mike484 said:

1) I believe the magazine is great, I carry mine with me and when I'm talking gyros with someone I would however still like to see some form of printed magazine, possibly published once a year after the PRA convention or twice, once after Bensen Days and once after PRA.

2) As far as membership I think the PRA needs to be promoted in a much more positive manner than what it is here on the forum.

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1) At this place and time in PRA's history, unless the editor can sell a lot more advertising space, I would be inclined to vote for a PRA "quarterly" with high quality and content.

2) I believe people are inclined to hang on to their money, but are very willing to give to a worthy cause. I believe we should not be selling the PRA on value for the $ spent, we should emphasis that the PRA is a worthy cause with many benefits (see the "Dean's list") until it becomes a viable "sale" with a tangible value for the dollar.

GyroRon said:

In other words, you paid for a life membership and by golly you expect a paper magazine to show up in your mail box till you die. Screw what that does to the rest of us right?

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Well, I am sorry that you were born so late that you didn't have an opportunity to buy a life membership. But it is what it is. Just like your favorite mags, if they offer a promotion to subscribe for more than one year at a time then you expect to get those mags for that rate for the duration of the subscription. And if you go back and read (yeah, I know it is a long read!) what I said about me paying my $50 a year like some other life members do then you know that I ain't gettin' any bargain!

GyroRon said:

We should just pay more and more dues each year, and talk our buddies into sending in their dues moneys too, to insure that you can still get your paper magazine.....

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Not exactly! What I expect you and the rest of the membership to do, rather than complain about the dues, is to put some effort in to promoting the PRA and finding ways to generate revenue. If that happens then the dues become a moot point since there is the likely hood that at some point in time the dues could be reduced without any impact on PRA benefits or services. You are no dummy and you have a successful small business so provide some leadership and contribute your ideas and time to increase the revenue stream. I realize dropping the magazine hard copy is an idea but some ideas just don't fly, so to speak!

Actually, would it not save much of the annual cost of the magazine if it was put online, and there was a single, annual, hardcopy "Rotorcraft Yearbook 20xx" mailed annually to members? How cool would that be for filing?