You know it is windy when…...

ylf

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Thanks for that link Chuck, just finished reading it and it does a good job addressing the different sensations that pilots feel when turning close to the ground in wind as well as the real effects of wind shear and air rolling off of upwind obstacles.
 

birdy

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You must be tickled buy the comedy ere CB, I'v never known you to use them green happy face things before. :) :)
 

StanFoster

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David- Its been a bucket of popcorn of entertainment for sure.

Chuck- thanks for the link on the topic. Excellent read and concise.

Stan
 

Tina

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Here’s the best non-technical article I’ve ever seen about downwind turns. It is written in simple, easy to understand language without garbling the physics:

http://www.australianflying.com.au/news/dragons-of-the-downwind-turn
Thanks for the link that explains so much and why we are on different pages because there is so many problems with the downwind turn. Its hard to put our heads around all the factors. With some or most of us we just knew what we are feeling in the seat of our pants and it was hard to put to words and to explain it away with math or physics. Most of us that fly low and slow have instinctively learn to manage it without getting hurt.
 

GyrOZprey

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Thanks Chuck ..... really GREAT article!

Thanks Chuck ..... really GREAT article!

:first::first::first:

WOW ... clunkety-clunk ..... the sounds of all the "pennies dropping" ..... bloody brilliant writing .....simple easy explanations all the way!

I could relate & translate to all my instructor has drilled & grilled into me & the why's ... become evident!

Thanks for sharing! :yo:


Here’s the best non-technical article I’ve ever seen about downwind turns. It is written in simple, easy to understand language without garbling the physics:

http://www.australianflying.com.au/news/dragons-of-the-downwind-turn
 

C. Beaty

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And just think, Chris, it was written by an Australian; not in Bitdy’s phonetic spelling of Oz dialect but in standard English.
 

SandL

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Airspeed and lift, lets keep it simple, not what anything other than a gyro does.

No Airspeed -no Lift, do you disagree?

Airspeed in a gyro from other than a forward direction takes much more power, do you disagree?

No gyro gains lift while truly flying behind the power curve, do you disagree?

Normal pusher Gyros will loss altitude if the AS indicator reads less than 10 MPH for more than a few seconds, do you disagree?

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH
sooo much easier to talk fixed wing ... after all we are talking about effects of wind,
1. In a gyro, if there is no air passing over the rotor blades then no lift agree we fall to the earth as a bundle of twisted metal. But at 0 indicated air speed in a gyro the gyro will proceed earthwards in a controlled vertical decent, with rotors turning, the rotors will still be creating some lift but not sufficient for forward level flight, that's why it's simpler to talk about fixed wing as I think you are saying the same inertia / acceleration is needed in both gyro and fixed wing.
2. I think you are talking about a gyro with a boot full of rudder applied, flying out of balance with the on coming air stream at say 30 degrees to the nose, then yes that takes more power to achieve level flight. agree
3. lift is still gained when behind the power curve, but not sufficient for level flight. the gyro will mush down wards and can be recovered if there is sufficient height by lowering the nose. (we all know this as we are licenced gyro pilots !)
4. Normal pusher Gyros will loss altitude if the AS indicator reads less than 10 MPH for more than a few seconds, ... yes .. we are now talking about an indicated air speed of less than 10 mph and about to enter a vertical decent if not already in one.
I have no idea where this is leading ...and what it has to do with you view that your gyro needs to accelerate through the air from 30 mph to 70 mph yet only ever achieving an airspeed of 30 mph perhaps you could go back and answer my questions about acceleration.
I appreciate your intention of accident prevention, and appreciate skills needed when flying a light aircraft in strong winds, nose attitude, and airspeed control are critical, along with handling turbulence and positioning.
Here I the UK I taught gliding for the RAF in open cockpit gliders for 10 years. I have the utmost respect for the weather. I was always adamant that students fly by nose attitude then cross check with the ASI, feel the breeze and listen to the sound of the air passing over the wings and feel the control response. I have never had to ask a student to accelerate from an indicated airspeed of 30 mph to 70 mph only to arrive at 30mph when performing a 180 degree down wind turn at 500 ft or 5,000 ft.
Students are interested in their circuit position referenced to the landing area.
At no time should they judge their airspeed by their speed over the ground ground... In my opinion that is the killer.
 

birdy

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John ( allin), you can't have two opposite correct answers to a fact.
It's either rite or rong.
Your referen to opinions, not facts.
Opinions, as we have seen, are ones perspective, not facts.
It's wen people have trouble aligning their perceptions with reality that you have threads like this.
I'm so glad I persisted ( tho my head is still sore) with it, coz ere and in PMs, others are getn the difference.( mainly coz CB got involved and posted that link)

Wen I first started with this internet thing, I had the same trouble.( tho I don't think I was so pig headed).
I could understand, and see in my minds eye wot the good people ere( thank you CB, D Riely n Co) were tryn to explain to me.
But, like most, I couldn't relate it to my perspective.
Then the penny dropped, I figured why I had so much trouble linking reality to my perception. ( I'll try to find the thread where I explained why it was so difficult for me to savvy).

And CB, I wouldn't take it so serious either, if others asses weren't at stake. ;)
 

All_In

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John ( allin), you can't have two opposite correct answers to a fact.
It's either rite or rong.
Your referen to opinions, not facts.
Opinions, as we have seen, are ones perspective, not facts.
It's wen people have trouble aligning their perceptions with reality that you have threads like this.
I'm so glad I persisted ( tho my head is still sore) with it, coz ere and in PMs, others are getn the difference.( mainly coz CB got involved and posted that link)

Wen I first started with this internet thing, I had the same trouble.( tho I don't think I was so pig headed).
I could understand, and see in my minds eye wot the good people ere( thank you CB, D Riely n Co) were tryn to explain to me.
But, like most, I couldn't relate it to my perspective.
Then the penny dropped, I figured why I had so much trouble linking reality to my perception. ( I'll try to find the thread where I explained why it was so difficult for me to savvy).

And CB, I wouldn't take it so serious either, if others asses weren't at stake. ;)
Buddy I was trying to change it to solutions, and you busted me?:focus:

I see parts as being correct only if I stand looking at what I believe there understanding is. As an example almost all have agreed that you fly the aircraft adjusting airspeed as needed yet they describe their understanding differently of how and why it works.

I've known many GREAT pilots who cannot explain much of the physics either but have never stalled one in. Which I have a hard time understanding how they do the math or just guess.

I believe those on the other side knows how to fly as well as anyone, like my old pros above, and most are arguing over ones understanding of training, life experiences, perspective, and semantics.

If you TRY really hard and look at it from their perspective about 90% makes since and they are saying exactly the same thing worded badly.

For me... you and CB, Doug, few others seem to describe it in my life experiences and explain things in terms I understand using physic.

Other I'll be describing the seat of the pants feeling and they are pointing out make and model flying procedural differences.
We are not even taking about the same subject.

There is a little of that here??
 

Steve McGowan

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Y'all sure are Brave.....Hell I can walk 2 miles in 20 mins.

That is ,,,,just fast enuff to stay ahead of that Bad Dog behind me..

and with the Tail Wind...
 

All_In

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Also like to add....

I know Scott knows how to fly, and he adjusts automatically!

I've seen him fly out of El Mirage in his helio when few were flying and seen him instantly adjust without thinking about it.
He makes it look so easy to fly in bad conditions, and I believe for him it is, as described in this 1st post describing his flight.

I saw him take off in his gyro too in really bad winds and then unexpectedly watched him land as we beat him in Patches = FW to Coronna airport.
I was off-loading a passenger at Coronna's gas pumps as he flew in the pattern and landed, don't think he saw us.

My passengers got a little beat up on the trip through the pass and the turbulence in route.

I had almost hit the control stops for too long a time period and gone around with the wind shear at that airport on that day.

I had sink, I expected, seeing the tree line is so close to the runway and knowing the winds direction but it was one heck of a ride for my buddies who said that was a great landing!

Then we watched Scott land in his SportCopter right by the turn-out and almost go backward stopping so fast and he instinctively increased power and just taxied to his hanger.

We all, but one current gyroplane pilot with us said. We got to get us one of those. Little did we know then Scott only makes it look easy?
 

Tina

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I also like to add something too.

Birdy you don't play nice! You really put Scott down in your references that he don't know sh*t. He has way more class on this forum then you my friend. You are just a bully at times and what can I say you really disappoint, your a dirty birdy in my eyes now :p
 

birdy

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:violin::violin::violin:

I tried warn n fluffy Tina.
The bloke didn't listen.
If your ass wasn't on the line, I wouldn't have bothered.
But you just see me Asa big bad bully.

Oh well.:der:
 

thomasant

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I went and flew this afternoon in my Tandem Air Command. Winds were about 15 kts down the grass runway. As I have been following the recent threads on the DW turns, I focused on doing a series of DW turns.

After take off, I would climb to about 400 to 500 ft and do my DW turns. I did the turns at different AS to see the effects of sink based on different radius of turns.

The most significant thing was the drop in rotor RPM ranging from 374 to 304, while adding full power after completing the turn. This drop was despite trying to keep the rotors loaded during the turn. Each time I completed the DW turn I would have to arrest the sink. I have 28 ft DW blades. I tried the turns several times to try and keep the RPM from dropping, to no avail. I was experiencing an 18% to 20% drop in rotor RPM from roll in to roll out of the turn.

I came home and read the article referenced by Chuck Beaty. Excellent reading, and a lot of what was happening during my flight made perfect sense.

I am a novice in gyroplane flying compared to the many experienced gyroplane pilots and perhaps that is why I am unable to keep a better handle on maintaining my rotor RPM during flight. I do not feel my aircraft to be light and nimble as some describe theirs.

Most of my flying experience has been in helicopters and I never had to deal with decreasing rotor RPM. While the debate about the dreaded DW turn will probably go on, my take away from this is to also consider the effect of rapid loss of rotor RPM in a gyroplane during the DW turn in strong winds which can further complicate matters and feed the dragon. I think this will vary a great deal between the types of gyroplanes. This is a great learning experience for me.
 

scott heger

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I went and flew this afternoon in my Tandem Air Command. Winds were about 15 kts down the grass runway. As I have been following the recent threads on the DW turns, I focused on doing a series of DW turns.

After take off, I would climb to about 400 to 500 ft and do my DW turns. I did the turns at different AS to see the effects of sink based on different radius of turns.

The most significant thing was the drop in rotor RPM ranging from 374 to 304, while adding full power after completing the turn. This drop was despite trying to keep the rotors loaded during the turn. Each time I completed the DW turn I would have to arrest the sink. I have 28 ft DW blades. I tried the turns several times to try and keep the RPM from dropping, to no avail. I was experiencing an 18% to 20% drop in rotor RPM from roll in to roll out of the turn.

Thomas, Can you imagine the sink might have become a bit more severe if the wind was 35KTS?

Be careful up there and slowly work your way up to higher winds only when you feel comfortable doing so, and only if your gyro does not have any noticeable instability issues. Thanks for posting your observations, now get ready for the flack to follow….

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH
 
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scott heger

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I have done this a couple of times in the past few months when departing the Joplin airport ramp, wind was 20 gusting 27 knots. I lifted off in front of the Alpha Air hangar facing South into the wind and hovered sideways about 50 ft to be clear of the buildings. Lowered the nose and accelerated from my 30 mph hovering AS to about 60 mph AS (30 mph ground speed) while climbing to about 200ft agl, I then made a tight, coordinated right turn back to the North for my departure, and the only thing that happened was my GPS ground speed increased from 30 mph to 90 mph. Unfortunately I didn't have the gopro strapped on my head either of those flights so I can't prove any of it.

Here is a video I found where an R44 makes a downwind turn and doesn't fall out of the sky, in fact they appear to keep climbing and accelerating:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=3XZi-CDMlDE#t=101
.
I did watch this video, and to a trained eye, you are incorrect. I never said anywhere in this thread "about falling out of the sky" . I did say that a 40 MPH wind 180 degree turn within 100 lateral feet will result in a loss of some altitude due to the lack of forward airspeed/lift because the gyro has not enough available power to regain AS fast enough . No more no less.

At the 22 second mark, while the helicopter is entering the first part of the downwind turn, the Vertical Speed Indicator, the uppermost left instrument, is reading a +200 FPM climb. At the 25 second mark of the video, as the helicopter has completed the turn and is directly downwind the VSI is now reading -200 FPM indicating it is in a sink, a 400 FPM difference, which is in the area to be expected . I don't know the width of the river, but the turn looks much "fatter" and closer to 300 feet latterly , not 100 feet.

The wind over water waves appears to be in the 20-25 MPH range, nowhere what the waves would look like at 40 MPH, they would have many more white caps and be much deeper. The AS indicator on this helicopter is a piece of crap and stops working while approaching the landing area; unless this is something unique to Robinson's, which I don't fly. You will notice as they come into land at the helipad that it drops from "30" to "0" at the 1 min 11 second mark even though they are obviously landing into the wind. When the helicopter is on the ground, it is still showing "0" despite an headwind as indicated by the windsock at the 1 minute 43 second mark. I wish the R44 would have had a accurate ASI so that the wind speed could be perfectly determined.

I appreciate that video, but barring any other information, it only proves my point, not the other way around. The little details do count. You may want to consider that the sink just might have been even more drastic if the wind speed was nearly doubled. A student's idea of high winds are nowhere in the range of what I am used to flying in.

Still waiting to see any video of gyro flight instrument readings showing that I am wrong, not the insults that seem to be more popular with no proof.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH
 
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birdy

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Birdy you don't play nice.
Actually, after thinkn bout it, I'm flattered you even thunk of me.:)
I'm touched.
So, I'm a dirty Birdy now, things are lookn up. ;)
 

scott heger

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so whilst flying in a 40 mph wind at 30 mph in a fixed wing are you suggesting that as you exit a turn you stall and enter an aerodynamic tail slide ? with 10mph hitting you from the rear ? (whilst flying in a normal flying attitude that would give you 30mph in still air ?)
tail slide , on coming airstream hitting the wing from the direction of the tail rather than the nose, controls slammed against stops, wash out becomes wash in and aircraft falls from the sky unless a tail slide recovery is performed before structural damage occurs .

All this may be easier to demonstrate with strips of wool stuck top a wing, I believe you will then clearly be able to see the direction of the airflow.
Nothing has ever been said about a tail slide , which I define as flying backwards tail first, maybe your definition is different than mine. Tail slides can be fun in high winds with a stable gyro, but I don't want to interject anything about them in this thread. I can say how it relates yes, but it will just confuse the basic idea that I am disagreeing about. I also want to stay away from fixed wing discussions because rotorcraft have no aerodynamic stall issues to deal with in this particular example. This is a plain and simple lack of forward airspeed/behind the power curve issue.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH
 
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