You know it is windy when…...

[scott heger]

Scott , I looked at the picture, then went on google earth
and wow ! you have some very unfriendly ground around you, I guess you are not flying with a mac looks like baseball fields and carparks some of the way and that's it
hell.... take care and fly high

Your right, in a urban area the best landing spot may be a flat roofed industrial building. . The reason is the low chance of a wire strike, or hitting a car or pedestrian. Gyros are light enough not to go through a flat roof. We have plenty of those around since our weather is so mild. The small power wires are the toughest thing to spot for me. Choosing a flight path that has the least hazards is important, but no path is risk free. I enjoy flying in open country more. Flying low in a city is never a good option. Gyros have a 1000 foot AGL minimum limit in urban areas.

Can you imagine flying a small gyro without a radio, transponder, or navigation lighting in downtown London? Believe it or not, despite all the new security restrictions since 9-11, this can still be done in a gyro directly over downtown Los Angeles (marked "City Hall" on below map link which can be zoomed in with the "+" at the top left corner)with just a prior phone call to ATC. We have very loose urban flying rules here compared to some countries. When my gyro was new and didn't have all those radio goodies, I did just that. The rules have not been drastically changed .It is still possible, since downtown Los Angeles is not within any airspace of LAX Class B below 2500 feet, nor any other "C" or "D" airport, because my gyro was originally licensed without an electrical system to support radio equipment. Is it true that pilots cannot fly VFR at night in the UK? No such restrictions apply in the USA. Also flight plans must be filed in the UK when going into controlled airspace? No requirement for doing so here, all ATC services are also free.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/fac/0504.html

https://vfrmap.com/?type=vfrc&lat=33.942&lon=-118.408&zoom=10

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH

 

[birdy]

Keeping my airspeed above 40 MPH (zero ground speed) I then gently started a left turn to pick up a 230 degree initial heading. The gyro first started to sink slightly until it overcame the downwind turn loss of airspeed and accelerate.
Nice try Scott.
In your opening post there was no mention of a flat peddle turn.
Even so, wind and it's direction is still irelivant.

But, I'm glad you seen the light.

 

[scott heger]

Keeping my airspeed above 40 MPH (zero ground speed) I then gently started a left turn to pick up a 230 degree initial heading. The gyro first started to sink slightly until it overcame the downwind turn loss of airspeed and accelerate.
Nice try Scott.
In your opening post there was no mention of a flat peddle turn.
Even so, wind and it's direction is still irelivant.

But, I'm glad you seen the light.

Birdy, a flat pedal turn is not a violent activity. Do you think such a turn in high winds cannot not be done "gently"? It is not something to concern yourself with that I can do various turns at whatever speed I want, this flight was not meant to be an air-show performance. Especially since the regional FAA enforcement office is only a few hindered feet away at the intersection of the two runways in the photo. If you read back through the many post, it was clear that a pedal turn is what I said I did. Do you really have to argue about everything?

Oh, by the way, have you come up with any video showing that you won't loose altitude in a 40MPHh headwind 180 degree pedal 50 foot lateral maximum turn in a pusher gyro yet? You seemed convinced before in previous post that such a thing was possible , and I did not know anything about what I was saying. I still say no way it can be done without sinking , but my gyro has a small engine, so prove this is wrong.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH

 

[birdy]

Birdy, a flat pedal turn is not a violent activity. Do you think such a turn in high winds cannot not be done "gently"?
A flat peddle turn can be done at wot ever rate your machine is capable of,
and I'll say it again, wind has Nuthn to do with it.

Yes, it became clear, ( at least, you changed the story) , after it was pointed out.
In you opening post, Which I copied above, there was no mention of peddle.

And no, I'm not going to make any vid, just to prove to one person, the basics of physics.
You say it's not possible, you've never dun it. Thems two different things.
It is possible, it's something I do often wen the need arises, and a basic understanding of physics will help understand how.

I'll ask one simple yes or no question, can you do a flat peddle turn without loosen alt in calm air?

 

[SandL]

Your right, in a urban area the best landing spot may be a flat roofed industrial building. . The reason is the low chance of a wire strike, or hitting a car or pedestrian. Gyros are light enough not to go through a flat roof. We have plenty of those around since our weather is so mild. The small power wires are the toughest thing to spot for me. Choosing a flight path that has the least hazards is important, but no path is risk free. I enjoy flying in open country more. Flying low in a city is never a good option. Gyros have a 1000 foot AGL minimum limit in urban areas.

Can you imagine flying a small gyro without a radio, transponder, or navigation lighting in downtown London? Believe it or not, despite all the new security restrictions since 9-11, this can still be done in a gyro directly over downtown Los Angeles (marked "City Hall" on below map link which can be zoomed in with the "+" at the top left corner)with just a prior phone call to ATC. We have very loose urban flying rules here compared to some countries. When my gyro was new and didn't have all those radio goodies, I did just that. The rules have not been drastically changed .It is still possible, since downtown Los Angeles is not within any airspace of LAX Class B below 2500 feet, nor any other "C" or "D" airport, because my gyro was originally licensed without an electrical system to support radio equipment. Is it true that pilots cannot fly VFR at night in the UK? No such restrictions apply in the USA. Also flight plans must be filed in the UK when going into controlled airspace? No requirement for doing so here, all ATC services are also free.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/fac/0504.html

https://vfrmap.com/?type=vfrc&lat=33.942&lon=-118.408&zoom=10

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH

ahhh London almost entirely class A "shoot you down airspace"
we have 2 categorys of small aircraft those with full certificates of air worthiness eg piper, Cessna type aircraft and those that are home built or "special" eg gyros, home builts, war birds etc. that are allowed to fly with a permit.

those with a permit may not fly at night. fly in airways, fly IFR, conduct aerial work or visit other countries unless invited and a few other restrictions.
(if an aircraft is foot launched it does not qualify as an aircraft)
there is a new category about to start called SSDR single seat deregulated, this covers any home built single seat with a low stall speed and light weight and wing loading. it will be very interesting to watch new machines come to market.
until very recently we have been bound and gagged and restricted into the dirt, but things may be changing over the next year or two many believe we may see a loosening of regulation..

you may want to look at skydemon light a free, fantastic UK flight planning tool

 

[StanFoster]

Birdy- I agree. If a flat pedal turn cant be done in a strong wind....it cant be done in no wind. Likewise...if it can be done in a strong wind....then of course it can also be done in no wind...as we have said all along....no difference when not flying a ground track.

Stan

 

[C. Beaty]

“And that’s the way it is….”

 

[Resasi]

It has been an interesting thread, and a subject worth knowing about.

No it has not hurt my head, people are people, each has a unique personality and way of expressing themselves. Pilots by their nature self confident, they have to be, particularly if they fly gyros. Insults are generally an expression of frustration rather than overt attacks, though they can become that way if both protagonists persist in not understanding/agreeing with on another, but that I think most would agree is normal behaviour.

It would be my understanding that :-The main thrust of the thread is to understand the risks involved, and what techniques might mitigate encountering a problem while turning downwind.

We hopefully all agree that contacting the ground, for whatever reason while turning downwind is a potentially catastrophic situation. To know it, be able to warn and advise low time new pilots of the dangers, and to discuss the best techniques of escaping such a situation is a good thing and why I think most of us continue to read discuss and contribute to this thread.

If I pick up any facts or techniques that I am not already familiar with then I am richer for it.

 

[Chopper Reid]

It has been an interesting thread, and a subject worth knowing about.

No it has not hurt my head, people are people, each has a unique personality and way of expressing themselves. Pilots by their nature self confident, they have to be, particularly if they fly gyros. Insults are generally an expression of frustration rather than overt attacks, though they can become that way if both protagonists persist in not understanding/agreeing with on another, but that I think most would agree is normal behaviour.

It would be my understanding that :-The main thrust of the thread is to understand the risks involved, and what techniques might mitigate encountering a problem while turning downwind.

We hopefully all agree that contacting the ground, for whatever reason while turning downwind is a potentially catastrophic situation. To know it, be able to warn and advise low time new pilots of the dangers, and to discuss the best techniques of escaping such a situation is a good thing and why I think most of us continue to read discuss and contribute to this thread.

If I pick up any facts or techniques that I am not already familiar with then I am richer for it.

I agree Leigh ! There are always new pilots[ gyro] coming through all the time and we see even expereinced pilots picking up knowledge.

My post was a basic of what I have expereinced but I'm still learning & enjoying the fact !!

 

[birdy]

The main thrust of the thread is to understand the risks involved, and what techniques might mitigate encountering a problem while turning downwind.
Not sure if it was the initial intention of the thread Leigh, but it's the only reason why I'm still on it.
Trouble is, you can't have an " understanding of the risks involved and what techniques might mitigate encountering a problem while turning downwind", if you first don't have a basic level of knowlage of the physics in the first place.

 

[Resasi]

?..I'm still learning & enjoying the fact !!

too true Brian, if I am not learning, I am either getting too arrogant for my own good, or stagnating.

And delighted you are Dave. As a major fund of hands on gyro experience, and for what you say is a simple CG, a pretty impressive grasp of the subject, you are a huge Forum asset.

May not have been the original intention but has certainly evolved into a discussion which has uncovered valuable facts which can and does benefit all of us who fly these machines.

I come to the Forum for company, friendship, advice, 'the crack', and always to learn more. Just so pleased that we have so many extremely clued up folks who are willing to share, and to persist when sometimes it goes at cross purposes or is being misunderstood.

Telepathy is still in its infancy, the written word subject to constraints due to language and our varying degrees of knowledge, experience and understanding of the subjects in question. Our common goals, in a nutshell, safety...for all of us.

 

[gyromike]

The main thrust of the thread is to understand the risks involved, and what techniques might mitigate encountering a problem while turning downwind.
Not sure if it was the initial intention of the thread Leigh, but it's the only reason why I'm still on it.
Trouble is, you can't have an " understanding of the risks involved and what techniques might mitigate encountering a problem while turning downwind", if you first don't have a basic level of knowlage of the physics in the first place.

Allright...who logged in under Birdy's username and spelled almost every word correctly?
The man's got an image to uphold, after all!

:lol:

 

[birdy]

Mike, I just copied wot Leigh rit.

Oi Scott, didn't think this was a too difficult question?
I'll ask one simple yes or no question, can you do a flat peddle turn without loosen alt in calm air?

 

[scott heger]

The ultimate message

The ultimate message

The main thrust of the thread is to understand the risks involved, and what techniques might mitigate encountering a problem while turning downwind.
Not sure if it was the initial intention of the thread Leigh, but it's the only reason why I'm still on it.
Trouble is, you can't have an " understanding of the risks involved and what techniques might mitigate encountering a problem while turning downwind", if you first don't have a basic level of knowlage of the physics in the first place.

Birdy, you sure are singing a different song. Does your gyro have a Vertical Speed Indicator? If I was a newbie, and read these post of yours below, I would think there is no problem doing a 40 MPH headwind 180 downwind abrubt turn, because you are not going to sink except only due to wind shear or other unusual condition. Is that a message that you want to leave to a new gyro pilot?

Not ME, I want a newbie to gain more altitude, approach steep turns differently, and be aware that they have the possibility to loose lots of altitude before recovery in high wind conditions. Thats my ultimate message.

In my experience, the maneuver I made on purpose, a 180 turn pedal turn in a 30-40 MPH headwind in a small area(50-100 foot lateral), my gyro will loose altitude under full power due to insufficient forward airspeed as it completes the turn the headwind becomes a tailwind, and forward airspeed decreases until enough AS can be regained.

This is my experience…. every time, over so many times I could not count, high wind sharp turns. Not just one time, on one day. I mean every time, always, without fail, consistently,each time,on every occasion . Clear enough?

That is what I want to warn newbies against, the real risk that something like this can happen to them if they are flying low level. Add any wind shear, or other condition, and it even gets worse.

Maybe a higher HP gyro, recovers airspeed quicker, but your post #41 seems to say no to this. Almost all USA single place gyros I have seen are under 100 HP (90%)on average, and mine is 65HP. I have watched enough gyros hit the ground in person, and the pilots seriously injured. I have very strong feelings on this subject, and the "traps" gyro pilots fall into. Your experience is obviously different than mine. I want to warn of the dangers of turns in high winds, and the possible loss of airspeed and lift…... so let it go.



YOUR POST #27

Gosh Birdy .... better explian your comment"..........
Everything rit is rite, cept the bit about it be,n different turning in wind.
The ONLY thing that changes in wind is your ground track.
__________________
Ignorance is bliss, but only till you realise you were.

The strongest resistance to the removel of ignorance is, arrogance.

YOUR POST #41

I have yet to see a single place gyro that can accelerate enough after a 180 degree sharp turn in 40 MPH headwind to a 40 MPH tailwind without loosing some altitude in the process. I doubt one exist.
Give me the keys to any machine, single or 2place, powerful or gutless, and I'll show you.
It's easy wen you know how.
And no, you don't need to loose alt.
Oh, add to that, gyro or heli.

It's even on YouTube if you want to see.

YOUR POST #44

Scott, I'm buggered if I can get this F.....n computer to work proper, but if you go to the flics Rob Dubin posted on YouTube, you'll see plenty of " inertia transfer".
There are 180 turns with no power, starting at ground level and finishn at the same.

Bear in mind, this was a few years ago, the ferel only had 80 hp, is heavier n it looks, and the pilot didn't know how to fly.
__________________
Ignorance is bliss, but only till you realise you were.

The strongest resistance to the removel of ignorance is, arrogance.

YOUR POST #54

I have yet to see a single place gyro that can accelerate enough after a 180 degree sharp turn in 40 MPH headwind to a 40 MPH tailwind without loosing some altitude in the process. I doubt one exist."
Scott, your not getn it.
Those turns that you say prove Nuthn, prove the machine can do it.
Just coz there was no wind on the day makes no difference.( cept to your ground position)
Do zactly the same thing in wind of any strength from any direction and the machine will do zactly the same thing.
It's like your sayn wind will change how much energy is needed to do a turn.
Nuthn could be further from fact.

And why would I land ina 40 mph tailwind?
No one said anything bout touchn the ground.

I know you don't understand the facts, but I can tell you, I'v dun those zact same turns at the same hight a zillion times while workn moos in all sorts of horrid conditions. And I can also tell you, wind has no effect, cept, as I'v said many times, on your ground position.

And if you don't/can't understand that, then best you study up on how aircraft fly.
__________________
Ignorance is bliss, but only till you realise you were.

The strongest resistance to the removel of ignorance is, arrogance



Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH

 

[birdy]

Bloodeyll, that was a hell of a long winded way of replieing to a simple yes or no question, without answering it.

 

[birdy]

I'll try again,

Scott, can you do a flat peddle turn without loosen alt in calm air?

I'm tryn to Learn ere, Nuthn sinister.

 

[scott heger]

Mike, I just copied wot Leigh rit.

Oi Scott, didn't think this was a too difficult question?
I'll ask one simple yes or no question, can you do a flat peddle turn without loosen alt in calm air?

I have been out of town and just got back, still trying to reply to a prior post. I do not try to ignore answering questions. To answer your question, given enough airspeed during the turn and lateral distance, YES no loss of altitude is possible. I don't take anything you say as sinister, just unnecessarily mean spirited at times.

Your question is over simplistic and irrelevant to the maneuvers I described before.
Using a more detailed a question would be helpful….

1. What airspeed is this done at, and must it be maintained the entire time?
2. Is the cyclic centered the entire time and only rudder used?
3. Is any left cyclic allowed in a left turn?
4. Is any aft cyclic (back pressure ) allowed?
5. Is cross control(right aft cyclic in left turn) techniques allowed?
6. How much lateral distance, 50 feet?, 75 feet?, 2000 feet to complete the turn?

Birdy, does your gyro have a VSI?????? I think I have asked this about 5 times, and do you have a photo of your gyro and instrument panel?

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH

 

[birdy]

To answer your question, given enough airspeed during the turn and lateral distance, YES no loss of altitude is possible.
Ok, so why your fixation on 40 mph winds?
You make it sound as tho wind makes a difference.

Ho, yes, the ferel has a vsi, but it's in the same condition as the ASI and alt thingy.

 

[scott heger]

To answer your question, given enough airspeed during the turn and lateral distance, YES no loss of altitude is possible.
Ok, so why your fixation on 40 mph winds?
You make it sound as tho wind makes a difference.

Ho, yes, the ferel has a vsi, but it's in the same condition as the ASI and alt thingy.

So you are telling me that alt thingy, ASI and VSI all currently work properly or don't work? You fly so close to the ground I guess it would not matter much.

Yes I think 40 MPH wind matters in a hard 180 turn regarding loss of altitude. I know you don't. You said why, I said my reasons under certain conditions. We just don't agree, Ok?

Could you answer the questions in the last post so I can be more specific with my answer to the pedal turn issue.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH

 

[birdy]

Ok, I'll respond backwards, just to be different.

My definition( and if it's not the same as everyone else's, that's orrite) of a peddle turn is just that, peddle applied at wot ever AS you like, and power adjusted to suit. ( power added if you want to hold alt). No cyclic change.

I'm still confused bout how wind can make a difference while turning, wether it be a coordinated bank or flat peddle, at any rate.

Yes, the alt won't go any higher n 200'( unless I give it a good kick) , the ASI hasa resident bug in the line and the vsi can't keep up.( it's still readn up wen I'm headed back down)

Back to the turns, if you are on WOT with low AS, and step ona peddle, obviously your go,n to loose alt, wether it UW ,DW or no wind.