You know it is windy when…...

birdy

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Good one Willy. :)

Brian, iv said before, iv never heard of anyone (else)who turned UW and smashed it in.
BUT, i have been forced down to the ground ina head wind.
The reason why nuthn bad happened is the ground speed, WEN I TOUCHED IT.
THAT, is the ONLY difference.
No one has yet suggested that theres no danger turn,n DW close to the ground. Coz everyone knows, if you touch the ground, should you encounter sink/shear, the impact is much greater DW than UW.
Wot the argument is centered on ( where i first started on Scott) is where he said he lost alt wen he turned DW. Theres no reason why youd loose any alt DW unless the pilot makes it happen.
Its not the DW turn, but wot pilots do while turn,n DW.

Youv seen me attemt to fly, so youd know i know abit about low level.
Iv turned DW a zillion times below 100' in all sorts of air, and have yet to hit the ground.
I have hit the ground twice turn,n up wind tho.
Both instances are on this net thingy.

we continually have people smacking the ground not knowing what happened !
That is the perfect example of, ignorance.
Must have been that DW air dragon. :)
Brian, we are all ignorant of who air flows wen we first start flyn. Its natural.
As we gain airtime, we gain instinctive knowlage bout airflow, and how it effects or machines.
But we need lots of airtime. The more we get, the smarter we get, solong as we always think logicaly, and not start thinkn theres sum invisable mistery monster up there.
Sure, we get plenty of scares wen flyn DW, but its only coz we are lookn at the ground rush past the mains at 60mph, hopen like hell we dont touch it. If it was UW, it wouldnt be near as scarey.
 

Doug Riley

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I see nothing incorrect in Vance's post #242. He's speaking of ground-tracking flight.

At pattern altitude, mechanical turbulence is a big deal, even in a heavy jet transport. On an airline flight into Denver not long ago, we had to go around twice because of low-level turbulence.

If you try to follow a perfect rectangular traffic pattern (obviously, relative to objects on the ground), you'll have to hurry your downwind turns, lest they be stretched out of shape. It's the hurrying of the turn that causes the "problem" with downwind turns.

If OTOH you hold a constant, normal bank angle and airspeed, ignoring what the ground beneath you seems to be doing, your pattern turns will stretch way out of shape downwind, but you won't experience any abnormal sink.
 

StanFoster

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Doug- I agree with your post. Vance finally said he was following a ground track. Much of my disagreement was removed when he stated that. Of course each turn is going to be different as he so correctly explained.


Stanc
 

Vance

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Vance finally said???

Vance finally said???

Doug- I agree with your post. Vance finally said he was following a ground track. Much of my disagreement was removed when he stated that. Of course each turn is going to be different as he so correctly explained.


Stanc
I feel I made it clear I was writing about flying a ground track in post 60 in this thread.

I feel I made it clear that if felt trees upwind were causing turbulence and turning upwind where I typically turned downwind would not produce the same results.

I feel confident in this prediction because this is my departure path when making a crosswind takeoff from runway 2 to the North West. I turn upwind at the trees and invariably encounter an increase in both my rate and angle of climb rather than the sink I encounter turning downwind.

Please don’t treat your discovery that I was flying a pattern like it was some hidden piece of information that I finally revealed in post number 242.

I feel if someone is building a theoretical model it is important it contain all the variables. When it does not; in my experience sometimes the experimental results do not agree with the model.

I feel when flying low level in strong winds with lots of ground obstructions turbulence is an important part of the turn model.

I don’t know enough about turbulence to have a theoretical model so I reported on what actually happens.

Because of an odd set of circumstances last Monday I had an opportunity to report what actually happened flying the pattern seven times in very specific conditions.

It appears to me your theory is still divergent from my experience because I feel that the turbulence over the tress is the primary reason for my consistent sink while making the downwind turn Monday last at SMX.

I am comfortable with that,

Regards, Vance
 

StanFoster

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Vance- As accurately as you describe situations so exactly, it just seems it needs to be stated in the most recent post that you are following a ground track. Some of us may not have read post #60,and that was a long ways back anyway .

Someone just hopping in the thread for the first time could have taken your experiences turning each leg with a total other meaning.

I was actually relieved to see you mention following a ground track. Post #60 either escaped me or didn't get sunk into my memory.

But in my opinion, I would have been confused on a lower level had it been stated a lot more often that you were following a ground track. You and I are in total agreement, even the turbulence having a stronger effect than following your ground track.

Happy to be in agreement!

Stan
 

birdy

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Don’t get bogged down in euphemisms, Birdy.
Help me out ere CB, if i knew wot efan, eufensim,............. one of them thiings was, id know to go round it so,s i wont get boged.
 

scott heger

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Scott
1. you say un-co0rdinated turn if it's uncoordinated how can you sure your ASI is reading correctly, with air hitting the side of the pitot tube it cant read accurately, it will almost definitely read low.
2. if you are trying to get to a certain place at a certain height then you are ground referencing
3. airspeed is controlled by nose attitude not engine thrust
4. the lift vector is canted, tilted to one side so the gyro will always sink or loose airspeed in the turn. this is why pilots lower the nose upon entering a turn.
5. accelerate from what air speed to what air speed ? when flying a balanced turn at 30 mph ?
6. if you are flying through an area of sink created by air bouncing over a building (like a standing wave) are you suggesting that a further 180 degree turn (losing height) back into that same area of sink is the best option? (i'm not so sure) please explain.. different if you are talking about flying under a CuNim I agree
7. agree no 2 turns create the same results in low level rough air
8. many are not flying right now as it's winter , how about you flying with cameras and showing us a clip of your down wind turn experience
9. you know you have got a 360 turn spot on when you fly through your own slipstream
10 maybe someone with a smoke system can demo both an air video and a ground video that will be very visual and might nail it
my guess is the smoke will drift down wind with the gyro showing that we are indeed flying in a block of air and provided we fly in balance at the correct air speed (for the day) we have nothing to fear (except fear it's self !)

in this thread smoking may be good for our health !

looks like I will be up flying in March, and I might even make it to BD !
if so I will buy you a beer, you certainly got my brain cells going
thanks
Peter (in the cold, wet, miserable, south west of the UK)
Peter, I will answer each question. Remember this thread started as a nice afternoon windy flight in 30-40 MPH winds that I thought I would share with those stuck in cold weather, nothing more. Remember, while all you are freezing your tail feathers off, today was the first day below 70 degrees this week, most of the time it has been near 80 degrees, and great gyro flying weather!

1-2. This was a ground reference maneuver because I needed to fly a certain flight path, I never said it was not . The turn only took a few seconds. I don't need to look at a airspeed indicator, my attention was focused on making the turn to the correct flight path behind me, which puts the least amount of people below me at risk. See the red line in the bottom photo. this was my "exit" after making the turn from the north/south runway. You can see the area is surrounded by houses and buildings. I expected to loose altitude and airspeed, and I did. I only started looking at the ASI after the turn was made to make sure the airspeed started coming back up. Remember this was done "Because I could" and was practice in a 40MPH headwind. See video comments at the end.

3. airspeed is controlled by nose attitude not engine thrust, That is way to broad a statement to either agree or disagree with generally. If I had a 500 HP gyro instead of a 65 HP one, the thrust would become a limiting factor with retreating blade stall. I can think of other examples not to be able to make this statement "in stone".

4. the lift vector is canted, tilted to one side so the gyro will always sink or loose airspeed in the turn. this is why pilots lower the nose upon entering a turn. In a flat quick rudder pedal turn, not necessarily. In a quick turn using mostly cyclic to turn,maybe .In a nice big wide 15 second turn watching your airspeed, that should not happen. In high winds in a banked turn, during the first 60-90 degrees of the turn the rotor creates lift from the tilting upper blade. The lift is just like it was flying in forward flight … when the rotorblade is higher in the front of the gyro than at the tail. When done correctly, almost no power change is need to complete a 180 high wind turn and stay at the same altitude while airspeed is held steady. Probably poorly explained, but that is my experience.

5. accelerate from what air speed to what air speed ? when flying a balanced turn at 30 mph ? From a 40 MPH headwind with zero ground speed , to a 30MPH forward airspeed downwind turn . This is a point where the gyro has gone from a behind the power curve (forward airspeed) point to where it is making lift again.

6. I never suggest making any turns low to the ground in high winds. A buildings/trees are too low to create anything other than minor local turbulence. I have had times when flying near mountains ranges that are 3-5,000 feet high that unusual updrafts and down drafts have occurred. I once passed a soaring eagle while the gyro was climbing 1,000 FPM AT IDLE. Also have times where 30 seconds of full power almost put me into the ground with good airspeed from 1000 feet agl. I expect anything to happen in mountains and try to fly with a lot of extra altitude. Cutting below mountain tops in steep canyons does not make for a long gyro flying career IMHO.

However **if** you are DW and are unable to arrest a sink by 100 feet AGL, You have already screwed up,and are about to crash and possibly be killed. Turn back into the wind immediately to try to save yourself. At least if/when you hit the ground it will be a lot slower groundspeed. If you complete the turn quickly, you will climb straight up over the point the turn was made. This is a last ditch effort, but can be practiced at a safe altitude. If you have to think about it very long,or do nothing ,it is too late. Practice, practice practice, and always have a "Plan B" ready to execute.

7. agree no 2 turns create the same results in low level rough air. Absolutely, that is why flying low to the ground in high winds is extra risky and requires extra altitude as a safety factor

8. Yes I have them, I promised myself not to post them online. I have nothing to prove to anyone here. I have ones doing all sorts of things, including landing at a International major airport. Some maneuvers "may possibly " have been made in an unauthorized location(S) after review. My camera has since been stolen from my car, and hope to get a new one soon. Some videos were saved to my computer. Should any forum member want to see them , I have no problem showing them in person to verify what I said below. All-In John would be a good candidate to verify or anyone else that lives near.

9. you know you have got a 360 turn spot on when you fly through your own slipstream. It has been my experience in high winds that if the turn is fast , that as you drift with the wind(downwind), it is at a slower speed then the actual wind and it is not a factor. Not until you start making bigger wider tuns, do you hit your own slipstream.

10. Pouring smoke in the sky is not a thing appreciated by my tree hugging fellow Californians.

I reviewed a video I have of doing 7 spins in 28 seconds, and the airspeed indicator was at zero the whole time once the spins got going. To me that indicates that a pedal turn does not have airspeed that can be read in such a fast turn in regard to questions one and two . I also did some s-turns and 360's into a 20 MPH wind. Though not all the maneuvers were completed at level altitude, the ones that were, seemed to see a 20-30 MPH airspeed change between upwind and downwind when steep turns were made. Another video showing a tail slide into a tailwind, the AS indicator was reading zero, as it should.

So anyone come up yet with that proof you won't sink in a flat 180 degree pedal turn starting from a zero ground speed in a 40 MPH headwind yet? A pilot said he could do it…….that I am still waiting to see, but not holding my breath.


Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH
 

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scott heger

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I am not comfortable making tight 180 degree turns near the ground when it is windy so I have very little experience here.

When I fly the pattern at SMX on a day like last Monday I am focused on airspeed, altitude and ground track. With a gust spread I find it hard to maintain airspeed. On this day the gusts were of fairly short duration so my airspeed was fairly consistent and the gusts did not cause a significant sink. The variance was less than the reported gust spread.

Because I have so little experience making sharp 180 degree turns near the ground in strong winds I can only speculate. I have found it difficult to maintain air speed and altitude in a turn without adding power so I feel it would be counterintuitive to make a second 180 degree turn to arrest my uncomanded descent.

It appears to me my angle of climb increases flying into a head wind and decreases flying down wind.

I have not noticed a significant difference in my rate of climb flying upwind compared to downwind.

I found some of the insulting comments on this thread disquieting.

Thank you, Vance

Hi Vance, I did not mean to suggest to do any tight turns near the ground, see my above post. My suggestion would be to practice them at 1000 feet in whatever wind level you are comfortable with. Also a ground referenced point to a quick 180 turn headwind to tailwind. Just watch your ASI and VSI as the turn becomes completely a tailwind. Maybe with that monster engine of yours you will have better luck holding altitude than I ever have. When you were at my hanger, did I show you any of the videos?

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH
 

scott heger

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Part of my confusion arises from some basic principles. I am not trying to argue the physics. But I think it is good to clarify these concepts.

Suppose I am flying with 40 kts AS and I do my turn into a wind of 40 kts and unfortunately I impact the ground at 0 GS. What is my KE? What will be the result of my impact? (Sorry Scott and Birdy, this is a case where I crash upwind. :))

Now the other scenario is that I am flying at 40 kts AS and after my turn a tailwind of 40 kts makes me impact the ground at a GS of 80 kts. What is my KE now at the time of impact?

To me it seems that the damage from the impact will be more in the latter case.
When you "crash" upwind in a wind shear you normally just touch the ground at very low, if any groundspeed (under full power) . It is everything you do in a calm wind landing except it happens at a much faster speed. Tell your friends watching about that near vertical 180 landing you just made with the engine roaring, and that you now need to excuse yourself to go clean your shorts….. If you "touch" harder, and the gyro has good suspension you just bounce back up into the air a few feet and fly out of it at low level and low GS, full power. Been there, Done both, don't wan't to ever do either again. Both times it happened was in the first 100 hours of solo many years ago at El Mirage with its weird ever changing winds , swirls, dust devils, thermals, drones etc. That place has every kind of natural disaster/event but locust…so far. The several DW crashes I have observed there have always resulted in serious injuries causing a wide debris field of gyro parts at high ground speeds. If you also don't know the wind direction and land in a crosswind, it is not going to go well. I have met the enemy and now try to avoid getting close to it. You never know when it will launch a sneak(wind) attack.


Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH
 
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SandL

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Scott
Thanks so much for sharing your experiences and starting this fascinating thread, thanks for responding to so many questions from so many people without loosing your rag, it's really appreciated. With the time you have put in answering all the questions and your calmness with focus on safety you should be a forum moderator in my opinion.

Peter
 

SandL

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Scott , I looked at the picture, then went on google earth
and wow ! you have some very unfriendly ground around you, I guess you are not flying with a mac looks like baseball fields and carparks some of the way and that's it
hell.... take care and fly high
 

Vance

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I understand you point Scott.

I understand you point Scott.

Hi Vance, I did not mean to suggest to do any tight turns near the ground, see my above post. My suggestion would be to practice them at 1000 feet in whatever wind level you are comfortable with. Also a ground referenced point to a quick 180 turn headwind to tailwind. Just watch your ASI and VSI as the turn becomes completely a tailwind. Maybe with that monster engine of yours you will have better luck holding altitude than I ever have. When you were at my hanger, did I show you any of the videos?

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH
I did not see any videos any of the times I was at your hangar Scott.

I understand your point about turning around before I hit. I find downwind landings in as little as 7kts of wind disquieting in The Predator.

I did what I describe as a bounce and go at El Mirage when the head wind changed to a tail wind as I was rounding out with a passenger. The indicated air speed had dropped from 30kts to very near zero. I felt preoccupied so I didn’t get a good look at the airspeed. As soon as I saw the indicated air speed begin to drop I advanced the throttle and made the control inputs for what should have been an aggressive flair. To my surprise the nose did not rise above its slightly nose high angle and we continued the descent until the mains touched down hard enough to bounce us back into the air without the nose ever touching down. I was able to remain airborne after the bounce but just barely.

My second attempt was as nice as could be in the same spot in the same direction.

I only have had the bounce and go experience once in over a hundred and fifty landings at El Mirage.

I do regularly practice low level 180 degree turns to land, I was just having trouble imagining what your described and not relating it to touchdown.

Thank you, Vance
 

Tina

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This thread really hurts my head. Do some of you forum members feel the same as I do about this?

My head was spinning from ALL the physics, numbers, wind, insults, and dragons and you said this and I said that antics. I am still confused to what every one was arguing about?

If I have this right Scott you were using ground references the whole time but none of your critics was even taking that in consideration. They were just hurling insults on physics of flight and stuck on that subject and had blinders on to what you were trying to express.

Does this some up the whole thread or do I have that wrong? :rolleyes:
 

thomasant

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the old sparkey gives up
I started flying in '79, was put through a year and a half of formal military aviation training and have never had anything like this. It is like flogging a dead horse to me. thomasant gives up as well.
 

ventana7

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Good article. One conclusion the author could have mentioned is: Fly by airspeed, not rate of climb, not ground illusions.

Rob
 

scott heger

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This thread really hurts my head. Do some of you forum members feel the same as I do about this?

My head was spinning from ALL the physics, numbers, wind, insults, and dragons and you said this and I said that antics. I am still confused to what every one was arguing about?

If I have this right Scott you were using ground references the whole time but none of your critics was even taking that in consideration. They were just hurling insults on physics of flight and stuck on that subject and had blinders on to what you were trying to express.

Does this some up the whole thread or do I have that wrong? :rolleyes:
You got it right Tina. If you want to go to a certain place, on a certain path, starting from a certain point in a small area, and not wanting to fly over certain ground based objects, I don't know what else you could call it. A nice big wide left turn would have put me over houses, busy streets, a school and many additional high voltage (none are really low voltage) power wires. This is truly the path of least (voltage) resistance!

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH
 
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