You know it is windy when…...

[scott heger]

You know it is windy when……it takes 20 minutes to fly 10 miles. Today I went to deliver my hanger rent to Riverside Airport , 9.94 miles away. The weather was 85 degrees(is it really the middle of January?) and the Corona airport wind was 20 gusting to 35 MPH at 030 degrees. The AWOS weather report before taking off to Riverside was about the same 17-32MPH. I took off on Runway 7 for this short flight.

The direct route is 8.5 miles, at a 060 heading, but requires going over a small mountain range. With the winds this high, the ride can be quite bumpy. I decided to go just south of the mountains, set a 100 degree heading for the first 4 miles, and then turn directly into the wind, or as advised by ATC. I called Riverside Airport and advised my intentions to land at the helicopter company's pad, next to Runway 34. This area is not visible from the tower. I was given approval to "fly direct to the pad and land as requested". With this instruction, it alleviated the need follow any pattern, and allowed me some sideslip to avoid flying directly into the wind until final. This was nice because I was making only 28MPH ground speed with a 65 MPH airspeed. When I could see the landing spot I wanted to use, a Sikorsky S-58 was parked on it. I then advised the tower (who could not see the parked helicopter) that pad was occupied and needed the Runway. Tower advised I was "clear to land on Runway 34, area not visible to the tower". I asked for a final wind check, 13 gusting to 27MPH and landed. After I radioed the tower I was clear of the runway, taxiing on Bravo, and then clear of Bravo.

The flight home 20 minutes later was setup to be a record breaker. The ATIS had not changed, but the wind had picked up. I called the tower and requested clearance to depart Runway 34 via Bravo with a southwest downwind departure. I was cleared for takeoff and told the winds were now 21 gusting to 32. Normally I try to spin up the blades while taxing especially at busy airports, but that is not a good idea on such windy days. With the next airplane inbound just reporting five miles out , I took my time getting the rotors up to speed. I rolled on the runway, gave it throttle, and was off the ground before the end of the numbers, about 50 feet. I did a mild climb to get away from the ground, and let the airspeed build. At 65 MPH, I pulled back and did a 400 foot vertical climb at 1000 FPM. Keeping my airspeed above 40 MPH (zero ground speed) I then gently started a left turn to pick up a 230 degree initial heading. The gyro first started to sink slightly until it overcame the downwind turn loss of airspeed and accelerate. I eventually reached a level altitude ground speed of 107 MPH. The trip back was much smoother and quieter without a headwind. The wind at Corona was a 40 degree crosswind from the runway, so I elected to use the helipad on the other side of the airport for landing. It has a windsock right next to it, which makes the landing more predictable in these gusty conditions. The airport was still reporting gust exceeding 30 MPH as I approached from 600 feet AGL. I landed directly into the wind, coming over a set of tall trees , vertically descending to 10 feet (30 mph airspeed) , and adding a little power to put me over the helipad to a hover, and settled in the last foot, letting the wind do the rest. I was airborne less than six minutes. I have never covered that much ground in so short of time in this gyro, including a takeoff and landing. 4 minutes of it, I never went under 100MPH and hit a top GPS ground speed of 111MPH. A memorable flight for sure, not bad for a Rotax 582, with a little( Ok, a lot of) help from the wind.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH

 

[CGameProgrammer]

Since I've never flown a gyro yet, I am curious: what's the procedure for landing with vertical ground speed (but sufficient airspeed)? I'm guessing you increase throttle as you slowly tilt the rotor back so you don't move backwards?

 

[BEN S]

fun ride bro!
Once when I had a gyro I clocked 98 mph on a downwind ground speed. It was freaky fast!

 

[Vance]

That flight sounds exciting Scott!

That flight sounds exciting Scott!

That is a good story well told.

Thank you for sharing.

You were over my limit of a ten knot gust spread.

I admire your self confidence.

I don’t land like a helicopter with The Predator for fear a gust or shear will take my indicated airspeed away and I will fall like a stone. The Predator has a fixed nose gear and a four inch front tire with very little give.

I feel your Sport Copter is better suited for a hard landing.

I am about to write about my flight home from the Cable Air Show and I suspect I will sound like a wimp compared to the bold way you embrace the wind.

I recommend to new gyroplane pilots that they build up their wind limits slowly so the effect of the wind does not exceed their ability to manage the unexpected.

I have been checking the weather each day since I got back to justify my decision to fly home Monday and am surprised that there are still Santa Ana wind events going on. The initial prediction was that the Santa Ana winds would be over by Wednesday. Even today, Friday they are expecting 14kts gusting to 20kts at Oxnard and 18kts gusting to 30kts at Point Mugu. It turns out that Monday was probably the best day for me to fly home till today.

Bob Cable would love you to fly your Sport Copter in next Cable Air Show if you are interested.

Thank you, Vance

 

[scott heger]

Since I've never flown a gyro yet, I am curious: what's the procedure for landing with vertical ground speed (but sufficient airspeed)? I'm guessing you increase throttle as you slowly tilt the rotor back so you don't move backwards?

Flying with zero airspeed or 35 mph airspeed with zero groundspeed is a "hover",meaning you are flying over a fixed ground position if you are a helicopter pilot. I can't say when all gyros can do this, but my SportCopter can start hovering at 25MPH airspeed, and it gets much easier with 30MPH or more. I understand this is over the comfort level of many gyro pilots, and has many additional risks. I can point out some of the differences between the two types of aircraft from a pilot's view, since I fly both. DO NOT take this as advice to try anything on your own without advanced CFI training.

A experienced gyro and helicopter pilot lets the rotor seek it's most efficient path, and allow the aircraft to go up and down and fly faster and slower without trying to chase the controls which leads to porpoising up and down and over control . If the aircraft hits a wind gust that drops it 10 feet at 200AGL, no big deal. If you are 5 feet off the ground and drop 10 feet, it becomes a very big deal, since you just made a 5 foot hole in the runway!!! So pilot control close to the ground must be much more rapid and precise, especially near the backside of the airspeed power curve. If you are flying directly into a 30 MPH airspeed wind, and zero ground speed condition, a gyro can be manipulated to fly a very exact flightpath, including the ability to go vertically up and down with no ground movement. A gyro must remain directly positioned into the wind, more powerful helicopters can land at a cross angle. The way this done in a gyro is not the same as in a helicopter. In a helicopter collective(power) is used to get up and down vertically and cyclic is used to control groundspeed in a hover. In a gyro throttle(power) is used to hold the aircraft to zero ground speed and cyclic is used to control going up and down. Wind gust are not a factor in this example.

Once the technique is mastered, hovering a gyro from touchdown to 5 feet off the ground can be held for as long as the wind cooperates. I can hold 1-2-3 foot AGL positions, and then step them back 3-2-1 AGL to the ground if the wind is steady. Now the reality, this is highly risky. Any deviation from being directly in the wind will result in a rollover. If it is gusty, don't even think of trying it.

As with any aircraft,airspeed and altitude is a pilots best friend. The higher the wind (Air speed) the less ground speed/ roll out becomes a factor to a landing. We all know that flying at 30 MPH airspeed requires less power than 20 MPH airspeed to maintain steady altitude . A small gyro can be landed vertically from 30 MPH airspeed, zero ground speed very gently with coordinated control of throttle and cyclic. If it has a powerful enough engine, it can also takeoff vertically for hundreds of feet without ground roll. Can it be done sure, but just like a helicopter, vertical takeoffs are to be discouraged without a forward flight component . If the engine decides to go out, or you are not faced perfectly into the headwind, the results are likely to be a ugly crash, so thats why you should not ever try it. The reason the rotorcraft height/velocity chart is called "the deadmans' curve" is for a very good reason. The helicopter only takes 60 percent of it's normal power setting to land in a 30MPH headwind compared a calm wind day.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH

 

[scott heger]

That is a good story well told.

Thank you for sharing.

You were over my limit of a ten knot gust spread.

I admire your self confidence.

I don’t land like a helicopter with The Predator for fear a gust or shear will take my indicated airspeed away and I will fall like a stone. The Predator has a fixed nose gear and a four inch front tire with very little give.

I feel your Sport Copter is better suited for a hard landing.

I am about to write about my flight home from the Cable Air Show and I suspect I will sound like a wimp compared to the bold way you embrace the wind.

I recommend to new gyroplane pilots that they build up their wind limits slowly so the effect of the wind does not exceed their ability to manage the unexpected.

I have been checking the weather each day since I got back to justify my decision to fly home Monday and am surprised that there are still Santa Ana wind events going on. The initial prediction was that the Santa Ana winds would be over by Wednesday. Even today, Friday they are expecting 14kts gusting to 20kts at Oxnard and 18kts gusting to 30kts at Point Mugu. It turns out that Monday was probably the best day for me to fly home till today.

Bob Cable would love you to fly your Sport Copter in next Cable Air Show if you are interested.

Thank you, Vance

Vance, give the following below comments some thought, and see what you think regarding wind gust after reviewing my post above to CGameProgrammer.

I feel the most dangerous wind gust conditions are 15 +MPH variances under relatively low wind speed conditions. A 5 MPH wind gusting to 20+MPH as a example . The reason I feel this way if you fly into the high end of the wind range, and then encounter the lowest end, you are going to sink/fall out of the sky before you add enough compensating engine power. If the wind is 25MPH gusting to 40 MPH, when you start landing at the top end of the range, and it suddenly drops to the bottom end of the range, the amount of power necessary to fly at 25MPH is so much less than the first example. Also the higher speed range landing is going to require some power already applied (to prevent rolling backwards)making a cushioned landing with extra tail authority from the existing thrust. If you come to a zero groundspeed 5 feet over the runway, and just maintain correct(direct into the wind) heading, you are going to just gently settle onto the runway. Compare this to a low wind speed landing where the throttle may be sitting at idle when the wind (and bottom) falls out from 5 feet. The other factor if your engine fails under low speed gust conditions, you will probably just have a hard landing. If your engine fails under higher wind speed conditions, your landing timing, i.e., getting the cyclic forward immediately at touchdown while still traveling with forward momentum, has to be perfect, or we will be reading about the rollover in the NTSB news.

I absolutely agree with you that attempting landing in increasing winds should be done in vary small portions built up over many years of experience. Higher winds is where open frame gyros have an advantage over fully enclosed cabin models. The open frame ones do not seem to be as sensitive to side gust (or sideways flying) as the cabin class ones.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH

 

[Tina]

The gyro first started to sink slightly until it overcame the downwind turn loss of airspeed and accelerate.
Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH

LOL... Scott your going to get everyone talking about those downwind turns again! Oh No

 

[scott heger]

LOL... Scott your going to get everyone talking about those downwind turns again! Oh No

I sure hope not,notice this was done from 400 feet, and not 20 feet. The sink was about 50 to 100 feet. That is why I am not a El Mirage statistic so far Tina. Turning from about a 40 MPH headwind (groundspeed means nothing)into a low bank, slow, 80 degree left turn, is going to result in some loss of altitude, until forward airspeed is regained. My 582 just does not have the power to accelerate/regain airspeed fast enough to prevent a sink with such a large tailwind component. My GPS groundspeed (again which means nothing)was about 80MPH before I was able to start climbing again. The point is I covered a lot of distance before positive climb could be reestablished. So unless you have done the exact maneuver above, please don't argue theory with me anyone.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

 

[BEN S]

Ill argue!
Just the other day I was dreaming about flying a gyro and when I banked hard left it climbed at a rate of 2000 fpm!
You sir obviously don't have a clue how to fly my imaginary gyro!

 

[SandL]

"So unless you have done the exact maneuver above, please don't argue theory with me anyone."


interesting out of interest did you lower the nose before your turn, and did you happen to notice rotor RPM during the turn ?
not arguing with you just interested , the more I find out before I try it the better ...
but it's going to be a long time till I am safe to fly a gyro in that wind speed
one steady step at a time
done it in a fixed wing but maybe that's different .... as discussed previously

 

[scott heger]

Sandl, I did not explain the whole takeoff limitations of this airport. Riverside Airport (KRAL) has a x-pattern runway layout. Runway 9/27 is the primary runway, with 27 being used more than 90 percent of the time. When our "Santa Ana" winds occur, then runway 34/16 is utilized, with 34 being the active runway,as it was this day with a wind direction of 010. This airport is also home to our regional FAA (enforcement)office, so everything is done "by the book". The takeoff was performed with the idea of enjoying the maximum rapid vertical climb over a fixed point available with the wind assist, and then making a flat slow pedal turn.,not making a perfect coordinated turn. I could have kept climbing 1000FPM for as long as I wanted at that point on nearly a full tank of fuel, not something that this gyro is capable of doing on a calm day. If I would have wanted to make a slow coordinated turn , I still would have climbed to at least 400 feet for safety with this much wind before starting a mild banked turn using cyclic and little or no rudder pedal. As far as RRPM, no, I was not looking at it, just the AS indicator. However experience shows that the RRPM drops just like you were doing a vertical sink (because that is what is happening) until the rotor regains RRPM speed as airflow increases with airspeed. Having a rotor tilted back as in a typical gyro and a 40 MPH tailwind with no airspeed reading indication is not conducive to building lift or RRPM.

This is the one area where gyros and helicopters fly the same. Flying in a 40MPH headwind wind is not the time to make rapid control, and direction changes in either rotorcraft type at low speeds. For example, a Bell 206 helicopter will naturally fly straight and true into the wind with almost no pilot inputs needed. However turn into a strong quartering wind, at low airspeed, and it will rotate/spin at some point rapidly, especially if it is a right hand turn, as the airframe overcomes the ability of the tail rotor to control yaw with a possible loss of total control . This turn did not require me to drop the nose,it was just a slow flat pedal turn over 10 seconds. I was far enough from the ground that loosing 100 feet was not worrisome. If I had tried it at 100 AGL, the only way I could have saved myself from a possible crash would have to lower the nose quite aggressively to assist in a rapid buildup of airspeed.,or turned back into the headwind. Being low to the ground and having a 40MPH tailwind to your back with a zero reading airspeed indicator is going to cut your pilot career down to a few seconds unless you are prepared to execute some pretty fancy flying to save yourself.

I could do the same maneuver in a 600 HP turbine helicopter( and have), it will still sink until some airspeed is regained. I have never attempted a 40MPH tailwind landing in a helicopter because experience at much lower wind speeds have shown that I will not have enough available power without either over "temping" the turbine or over torquing the transmission. A 600 Hp turbine helicopter can easily make 1000HP instantaneously, however you will soon find out what the weakest part in your drivetrain is, and may be looking at a $100K repair bill even if you don't crash. Bottom line, attempting low level, low airspeed turns close the ground under high wind conditions should be avoided, especially if you are a low time pilot with limited high wind experience.

Notice nowhere in this thread did I put the terms "downwind" and "turn" next to each other. So all you disbelievers can still keep thinking the world is flat.

Scott Heger, laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

 

[hillberg]

Corona wind:spy:, Great for helicopter hover work,:bored: PITA:boink: !

 

[ylf]

"...The trip back was much smoother and quieter without a headwind...."

Why was it quieter?

 

[scott heger]

"...The trip back was much smoother and quieter without a headwind...."

Why was it quieter?

YLf, Because I did have to talk to anyone on the radio, which is a challenge in a open frame gyro with no windscreen. This control tower is normally busy and does not talk to you after giving a takeoff clearance ,or give you a OK for a frequency change when leaving their airspace unless you ask them for it or a traffic conflict exist. I have found that a fairly common custom at busy urban airports. As far as wind noise, yes it is exactly the same. I can see how what I said was confusing and not fully explained. Flying at WOT, the gyro seeks a maximum speed that is limited it's horsepower versus wind resistance, and could care less how fast the groundspeed is, just like every other aircraft that doesn't have a upper speed limitation. This is because the Rotax 582 does not have enough HP to exceed the wind resistance to create a speed limitation. I would have been able to fly even faster on the trip back, but my track to Corona was not in direct line with the tailwind. The gyros normal WOT speed is about 75MPH in calm conditions level flight, depending on fuel load, altitude and temperature. I have reached 110+MPH calm wind speeds before, but only in a steep full power dive. That is when it gets really windy, pulling on my open face helmet.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH

 

[birdy]

You know its windy when......... It takes 20 mins to travel 2 miles.

 

[birdy]

At 65 MPH, I pulled back and did a 400 foot vertical climb at 1000 FPM. Keeping my airspeed above 40 MPH (zero ground speed) I then gently started a left turn to pick up a 230 degree initial heading. The gyro first started to sink slightly until it overcame the downwind turn loss of airspeed and accelerate.

The 2 words look pretty close to each other ere Scott.( from your opening post)
I'm not an aviators a55hole, but m interested in the apparent loss of alt like others ere, see,n as you maintained good AS.

 

[scott heger]

At 65 MPH, I pulled back and did a 400 foot vertical climb at 1000 FPM. Keeping my airspeed above 40 MPH (zero ground speed) I then gently started a left turn to pick up a 230 degree initial heading. The gyro first started to sink slightly until it overcame the downwind turn loss of airspeed and accelerate.

The 2 words look pretty close to each other ere Scott.( from your opening post)
I'm not an aviators a55hole, but m interested in the apparent loss of alt like others ere, see,n as you maintained good AS.

Ok, I confess to the two words being put together in the thread. I meant to say that particular "post" mentioned, but did write "thread". Since you obviously read each post you noticed in post #11 I said did a slow level pedal turn causing a loss of altitude (when the airspeed indicator AS dropped to nearly zero) instead of a more cyclic induced turn which would have resulted in wider turn requiring less necessary power and no probable altitude loss.

The city of Riverside's population is over 300, 000 people and is wall to wall buildings outside the airport parameter. The departure route I choose is the only one that has a open space over a industrial area to fly away from the airport without immediately being over buildings, power wires, street light poles, moving cars etc, in case the engine fails. With that much wind, I could still execute a 180 and have a place to drop in a near vertical landing in a emergency. If you have to land immediately , you get to dodge some sheep, a tree or maybe a fence, but probably have plenty of area to choose from. If that happens to me, I have to worry about not hitting all of the above buildings, moving and non moving hazards, including pedestrians , city buses or a busy school yard. Having one of the big-boy engines, like your gyro, makes such high wind events/turns , just another day on the job. When the winds are in the 40 MPH range DOWNWIND, my 582 engine has to work pretty damn hard to TURN and hold altitude within the confines of the airport while trying to make up for a 80 MPH change (40 MPH headwind to 40 MPH downw@nd) in air speed to get the AS high enough to maintain a climb out to the FAA requirement of 1000 feet AGL over highly populated areas. Is that far enough apart for those disputed words ? I admire your high time gyro experience and low level flying skills.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH

 

[StanFoster]

Scott- Could you explain to me why your 582 works harder climbing or turning in those 40 mph winds you just mentioned? All the gyros I flew took the same power to climb or turn on a calm day or a windy day.

Stan

 

[birdy]

Hmmmm, I thought more of you Scott, didn't realise you were so delicate.

But yeh, glad I'v got life so easy.
And yes, I'v driven gutless gyros . No difference if it was windy or not, cept getn off the ground.

 

[scott heger]

Scott- Could you explain to me why your 582 works harder climbing or turning in those 40 mph winds you just mentioned? All the gyros I flew took the same power to climb or turn on a calm day or a windy day.

Stan

Stan , what I am really talking about is a behind the power curve situation, just with larger airspeed numbers. A gyro with a Rotax 110 HP engine will recover from a low airspeed sink, hover, behind the power curve situation because it has superior power to "fly on the prop", using thrust to compensate for lack of lift of the rotor blades have under low airspeed conditions better than a Rotax 582 65 HP engine until air speed is regained. Higher HP also has the ability to use more rearward rotor cyclic to get lift than a smaller engine.

Would you land your helicopter with a steep profile in a 35 MPH tailwind? Of course not, because it takes much more power than you have available to hover/maintain lift than your engine now produces. Land into a 35 MPH headwind and the helicopter will use almost no power until the hover is started, and about 20-30 % less power than in calm conditions to hover. If you had a more powerful engine the necessary thrust would be available to giving you more flexibility to do tailwind landings.

For example, A given set of rotor blades will create the same amount of lift for a gyro (assuming the weight is the same) no matter what engine it has. Also assume, for the sake of argument, that a gyro needs 38 MPH of airspeed to create positive lift and wind gust are not a issue. A high power gyro may be able to hover at 30 MPH airspeed using additional prop thrust,where a low power gyro could hover at 38 MPH airspeed. When the wind is barely enough to hover, I try to keep the gyro nose high to get the most lift out of the blades and available prop thrust. As wind speed (and airspeed) increases the engine thrust becomes less of a factor to hover, and a more level profile is used. How much lift is created by a steeper rearward rotor blade angle and/or downward prop thrust being used two feet from the ground is beyond my pay grade, but it does have an effect in the real world.

I am not a big theory guy, but at some point, given enough HP,a gyro could climb vertically mostly on prop thrust , just like the new fighter jets can hover, nose vertically, just on thrust without lift from the wings. Turning into a 40 MPH tailwind creates a behind the power curve situation, and is not going to help creating lift . With a low power engine, if this is tried close to the ground, and AS is not carefully monitored, a crash is possible. The more thrust a engine has, the faster you can recover to a airspeed that stops a sink and creates necessary lift. This is not like doing a pedal turn in calm wind and zero airspeed. The engine has to accelerate the gyro an additional 40 MPH above normal just to create the same lift in a tailwind as described. That is a 78 MPH spread. My 582 does have to work a lot harder and longer than a 110 hp motor to accelerate and gain that airspeed back.

While this is occurring, the pilot is covering a lot of ground giving the illusion of speed, but the gyro is not creating AS lift yet and may be actually sinking, which may slow a pilots reaction to a dangerous flight condition ahead. In another infamous thread about certain turns in the opposite direction at low altitude, almost every gyro pilot admitted they don't pay much, or any attention to the airspeed indicator. In high wind speeds, that can kill you .

That is why it is better to have a more powerful engine to shorten the time you are behind the power curve and regain enough AS to create lift . Flying in higher winds are not a problem for me, and I have flown in even higher winds and the SportCopter remains a very stable platform. The limiting factor is the ability of my engine to maneuver in any direction with enough thrust to get myself out of a behind the power curve situation at the higher wind speeds.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH