Would an Amphibious Gyro rotor get damaged if the gyro is hit by powerboat waves when stationary (say fishing or enjoying the tranquil lake/bay) ?

[T-Bill]

Hello, I am in the process of evaluating a purchase of an amphibious flying toy that can help me shorten the distance (in terms of time) between civilization and the wilderness (think fishing trips at the bay or at the lake).

In terms of getting into the wilderness it is fundamental for me to have a vehicle with floats because they allows one to be exactly where the 3 elements (water, land, air), meet and then once you are done exploring you can go back to civilization via the elemental path of least resistance (air).

My choice naturally wandered towards a gyro with amphibious floats and precisely either an Auto-Gyro MTOAmphibious or a Trendak Tercel with floats (or equivalent Polish/Czech model)

Now that the theory is settled I have had a question roam through my mind during this week and it is the one in the title which I'd also repeat below:

Would an Amphibious Gyro rotor get damaged if the gyro pitches and rolls due to the waves when stationary (say fishing or enjoying the tranquil lake/bay) ?

It is important because although the theory is sound the practical reality of events is much more important, I intend to use the amphibious gyro as either a platform for fishing ( so either be anchored ,left at the buoy or outright floating in the openness of the bay) or as a way to get to the beach.

So as you might understand all the above involves some serious time when the rotor is stationary and during the aforementioned stationary time there will be FOR SURE some waves which are higher than normal , that is natural waves higher than normal or powerboat/jetski artificially generated waves which will have the Amphibious Gyro roll and/or pitch quite a bit so in order to avoid wasting money and time I am asking the experts of this community if the rotor could wind up getting damaged in the aforementioned rolling and pitching and if the gyro is at risk of capsizing

 

[Mayfield]

It looks like no one can look at your profile to identify you. I doubt if you will get much help when we can't see who and where you are

Jim

 

[T-Bill]

It looks like no one can look at your profile to identify you. I doubt if you will get much help when we can't see who and where you are

Jim

Hello Jim, thanks for the quick response

As a standard practice I use the most stringent privacy settings when registering on any platform, but if you think it would make a difference I can change the settings,

But I don't think it would make that much of a difference considering that I am new on here and this is an account made 20 mins ago. I know the community is tight but every once in a while a new person also comes around as fascinated by these aircrafts and trying to think about how to best leverage their characteristics to have a good time.

 

[Mayfield]

Hello Bill,

I suspect none of us would expect you to post your safe deposit box combination, but most of us know each other by reputation at least. We have people with several thousand hours in gyros and/or helicopters, and those that are just beginning an aviation journey. All are welcome.

Click on some member names and check out the kind of profile info most of us list. The info gives us a chance to get to know our correspondents. Of course, we don't have the ability to judge the veracity of the info provided, but many here have been in this community for many decades and have finely tuned BS detectors.

Jim

 

[T-Bill]

Hello Bill,

I suspect none of us would expect you to post your safe deposit box combination, but most of us know each other by reputation at least.

Click on some member names and check out the kind of profile info most of us list. The info gives us a chance to get to know our correspondents. Of course, we don't have the ability to judge the veracity of the info provided, but many here have been in this community for many decades and have finely tuned BS detectors.

Jim

Ok will change and use the most open setting,

On the BS thing, well it's not like I am trying to sell anything, just asked a physics question on the odds of an amphibious autogyro to capsize or rotor being damaged by the pitching and rolling when the water surface is at Beufort 2-3

 

[Mayfield]

Ok will change and use the most open setting,

On the BS thing, well it's not like I am trying to sell anything, just asked a physics question on the odds of an amphibious autogyro to capsize or rotor being damaged by the pitching and rolling when the water surface is at Beufort 2-3

Thanks Luca, and welcome.

If you have not already done so, check out the gallery in the TAG gyroplane web site. They demonstrate a gorgeous TAG amphibious gyro there. https://www.tagaviation.com.au/

Jim

 

[T-Bill]

Thanks Luca, and welcome.

If you have not already done so, check out the gallery in the TAG gyroplane web site. They demonstrate a gorgeous TAG amphibious gyro there. https://www.tagaviation.com.au/

Jim

Changed to open up the settings.

Jim, I have seen a lot of amphibious autogyro videos (TAG, AG GMBH, Trendak..) but everytime it's at Beaufort 0 conditions , no video at Beufort 1-2-3 which are the real conditions where one would expect to use the aircraft. And it's important to remember that even in Beaufort 0 conditions a powerboart passing can generate Beaufort 3 type waves, although just for a couple of seconds, but that all it takes to capsize the Gyroplane or damage the rotor.

On the contrary there are some videos of trikes such as the Polaris AM-FIB and the Cygnet Amphib at Beaufort 1-2 conditions with formed wave etc.

 

[Mayfield]

Luca,

This is outside my area of expertise. I hope someone can help you. Christine Toevs, on this forum, probably knows the TAG driver and can maybe introduce you.

Jim

 

[Vance]

Welcome to the Rotary Wing Forum Luca.

I have not had any personal experience with a gyroplane on floats.

I don’t know how the rotor would be damaged by the waves when not being operated.

I typically secure my rotor when parked anywhere because I don’t want it banging against the stops or hitting someone near the aircraft.

I fly very near the ocean and corrosion is a challenge for my painted fabricated aluminum rotors (Sport Copter).

I suspect there are some limits for how rough the water can be for takeoff.

To answer a question you didn’t ask; a tandem tends to be more stable in pitch than a side by side and floats likely make a gyroplane more pitch unstable.

I wish you all the best on your gyroplane adventure.

Please get training for your particular gyroplane and lots of it.

In my opinion operating a gyroplane on floats is more challenging than operating a gyroplane on tires.

 

[T-Bill]

Welcome to the Rotary Wing Forum Luca.

I have not had any personal experience with a gyroplane on floats.

I don’t know how the rotor would be damaged by the waves when not being operated.

I typically secure my rotor when parked anywhere because I don’t want it banging against the stops or hitting someone near the aircraft.

I fly very near the ocean and corrosion is a challenge for my painted fabricated aluminum rotors (Sport Copter).

I suspect there are some limits for how rough the water can be for takeoff.

To answer a question you didn’t ask; a tandem tends to be more stable in pitch than a side by side and floats likely make a gyroplane more pitch unstable.

I wish you all the best on your gyroplane adventure.

Please get training for your particular gyroplane and lots of it.

In my opinion operating a gyroplane on floats is more challenging than operating a gyroplane on tires.

Thanks Vance, appreciate your warm welcome to the forum and the answers in a cool readable bullet point format.

When looking for answers by searching other discussions on this forum I found a thread on the potential damages to the head of the rotor of the gyroplane if in fact the rotor is not removed when the gyroplane is being hauled, so I inferred that if a small bump in the road could damage the head and the rotor due to unnatural obscillatory movement then waves would be lethal and given that as I said in my OP I would love to use this aircraft to be at the intersection of the 3 elements (water, air, land) , well that's about the worst possible place for waves , isn't it?

So although you don't have experience on floats maybe you have experience when hauling a gyro, is it true that bumps in the road and the subsequent vertical obsicllatory movement on the y-axis could damage the rotor and the rotor head? What is the hangar talk about this particular problem?

This is the discussion that I mentioned : https://www.rotaryforum.com/threads/hauling-a-gyroplane.14177/#post-303910

It was a message from @DennisFetters which was posted and had many agree with him about rotor head damage

But I also found a counterexample to all the above, because the Czechs have put on the market a "flying car",

which in reality is just a gyro with an electric motor to propel the wheels and in their promotional material they show the rotor still mounted on and secured with the cable, but nonetheless still on.

 

[Aerofoam]

Pure deduction:
Helicopters have no issue with rocking in minor wave action,
BUT! Helicopters can leave when the it gets too rough, gyroplanes would not be able to launch in moderate chop and would be grounded before sea planes and definitely before helicopters.
Since there are only 2 rotor blades, you could easily tie them down under minor tension and ride out moderate conditions at anchor, but if it got really heavy, you would need to haul out to avoid capsize....

 

[Vance]

Thanks Vance, appreciate your warm welcome to the forum and the answers in a cool readable bullet point format.

When looking for answers by searching other discussions on this forum I found a thread on the potential damages to the head of the rotor of the gyroplane if in fact the rotor is not removed when the gyroplane is being hauled, so I inferred that if a small bump in the road could damage the head and the rotor due to unnatural obscillatory movement then waves would be lethal and given that as I said in my OP I would love to use this aircraft to be at the intersection of the 3 elements (water, air, land) , well that's about the worst possible place for waves , isn't it?

So although you don't have experience on floats maybe you have experience when hauling a gyro, is it true that bumps in the road and the subsequent vertical obsicllatory movement on the y-axis could damage the rotor and the rotor head? What is the hangar talk about this particular problem?

This is the discussion that I mentioned : https://www.rotaryforum.com/threads/hauling-a-gyroplane.14177/#post-303910

It was a message from @DennisFetters which was posted and had many agree with him about rotor head damage

But I also found a counterexample to all the above, because the Czechs have put on the market a "flying car",

which in reality is just a gyro with an electric motor to propel the wheels and in their promotional material they show the rotor still mounted on and secured with the cable, but nonetheless still on.

It is an interesting question Luca.

Bearings will that are not turning and have hammering from a rough road don’t hold up well.

I put a G meter on my gyroplane and the most I could pull was just a little over two Gs.

That of course is with the rotor head turning.

A small bump in the taxiway can easily register twice that when I am taxiing.

It seems unlikely that waves against floats could create more than two Gs.

Rotor head bearings should be inspected at least once a year and damage will be easy to spot.

Rotor head bearings are easy to inspect/replace and relatively inexpensive.

I would tie the rotor down so you are not banging against the stops.

Corrosion is likely a much bigger challenge.

 

[T-Bill]

Pure deduction:
Helicopters have no issue with rocking in minor wave action,
BUT! Helicopters can leave when the it gets too rough, gyroplanes would not be able to launch in moderate chop and would be grounded before sea planes and definitely before helicopters.
Since there are only 2 rotor blades, you could easily tie them down under minor tension and ride out moderate conditions at anchor, but if it got really heavy, you would need to haul out to avoid capsize....

Thanks for chiming in Mark!

When you say helicopters are fine in minor wave action you mean helicopters which are on yachts which are themselves into minor wave action? I have never seen a video of an helicopter with floats landing on water, nor taking off from water for that matter, except in Jaws 2, can you point any real video?

The closest thing to it is this video of exercises from the Italian military, but still they just touch and go, not properly land :

 

[Aerofoam]

My point being a helicopter does not need to accelerate to 35mph.+ to take off.
The acceleration phase of a gyroplane in rough chop would likely end up in blade flap, or pitch poling over the nose.

 

[T-Bill]

My point being a helicopter does not need to accelerate to 35mph.+ to take off.
The acceleration phase of a gyroplane in rough chop would likely end up in blade flap, or pitch poling over the nose.

Ah ok, but now am curious when you said pure deduction were you thinking of helicopters withstanding wave action on yacths/aircraft carriers or proper helicopters with floats landing and taking off in water and directly withstanding wave action? And why aren't there amphibious helicopters nor videos of them?

The above is also a question that I have although not related to potential purchases

 

[WaspAir]

Two comments:

1). I have penty of time in the Robinson R22 Mariner, operating on both land and water. It is amphibious, with the floats sitting atop skids that touch the ground on land. The only drawbacks are drag from the floats, and a tendency to rotate on the water if you start up while floating (until the tail rotor gets up to speed). There are also many, many military amphibious helicopters.



Skip to 4:30 in this video:

2). The biggest issue for road bumps is rapid onset and variation of g-forces (a physicist would call this "jerk", the derivative of acceleration). Waves provide much smoother onset and slower variation. Think of it this way - - a rough road will slam your teeth together, but swells in a stationary boat will not.

 

[T-Bill]

Two comments:

1). I have penty of time in the Robinson R22 Mariner. It is amphibious, with the floats sitting atop skids that touch the ground on land. There are also many, many military amphibious helicopters.

View attachment 1159364

2). The biggest issue for road bumps is rapid onset and variation of g-forces (a physicist would call this "jerk", the derivative of acceleration). Waves provide much smoother onset and slower variation. Think of it this way - - a rough road will slam your teeth together, but swells in a stationary boat will not.

Hey thanks for chiming in! And for the quick physics lesson.

Of course I know the R22 and that it can mount floats but have never seen anyone (both in person or in video) use it for more than a demostrative touch and go on the water, kinda like the video that I posted about the MD500 purchased by the Italian Military, Airshows usually have them too.

More importantly can I ask if you proper land on water with the intention of staying there for some time (say 1-2 hours) with your R22 mariner ? And if do so, do you anchor , use the beach/bank as a support or you have a buoy? Finally fresh water or salt water?

 

[WaspAir]

Beaching the skid toes is easy and prevents the start up rotation I mentioned above. Approaching a dock for mooring can be tricky for clearances (the tail rotor requies special care). Landing from a hover is strange because the rotor wash pushes the water away in circular patterns making it hard to detect drift, so you need some shore reference or buoy to hold position as you settle (you don't feel contact with the water if you do it well but simply stop settling when buoyancy is adequate). Fresh water is preferable for obvious reasons. Salt water requires careful flushing of everything afterwards for corrosion control. It's not very different from fixed wing float operations in that regard.

I never carried an anchor but you could. Paddling requires going out on the floats and may get you wet.

I would echo the concern mentioned by others that accelerating a gyro to take off in rough water could be, well, unpleasant.

 

[T-Bill]

Beaching the skid toes is easy and prevents the start up rotation I mentioned above. Approaching a dock for mooring can be tricky for clearances (the tail rotor requies special care). Landing from a hover is strange because the rotor wash pushes the water away in circular patterns making it hard to detect drift, so you need some shore reference or buoy to hold position as you settle (you don't feel contact with the water if you do it well but simply stop settling when buoyancy is adequate). Fresh water is preferable for obvious reasons. Salt water requires careful flushing of everything afterwards for corrosion control. It's not very different from fixed wing float operations in that regard.

I never carried an anchor but you could. Paddling requires going out on the floats and may get you wet.

I would echo the concern mentioned by others that accelerating a gyro to take off in rough water could be, well, unpleasant.

Thanks, so I wanted to ask about water conditions.

I found this video below of an helicopter which was forced to make an emergency landing in the Gulf of Mexico.

This should be Beaufort 4 heading into Beaufort 5. Let's say Beaufort 4.5

In such conditions the main rotor seems fine, I stress seems, doesn't seem bent or anything, but the tail is basically in the water. Have you ever had a scare with a big powerboat making waves which are 2-3x the size of normal waves that day, and if so how did the main rotor behave and what about capsize risk as well as risk of having tail under water due to the pitch&roll? If you land in Beaufort 1 which is basically calm, a rougue wave and or powerboat waves could create a 2-3x size wave and leave you in trouble.

 

[dabkb2]

Where's a video of a Sportcoper with floats