Why don’t they make safer gyroplanes?

eddie

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Thanks for the complete explanation Doug,Your right I think that in the RAF design the

cabin is one of the major problems because of the lack of streamlining behind the cabin.



Best regards,
 

Doug Riley

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Eddie:

Yup, but not only RAF. The RAF, the Glanville Skymaster and the Hollmann SxS were cousins that all came out about the same time and all had similar lines. In fact, most pods (both full-and half-height) for homebuilt gyros have been too blunt in the back. Probably because it's more difficult to cowl the engine and then continue the cowl taper line through the prop disk with a spinner. And if you do all that, then you have less-perfect engine access. (Most of like to pet, and tinker with, our engines.)

But designers are at last beginning to get the idea.
 

phantom

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Actually the glanville skymaster was the cleanest of the machines that you mentioned and true the engine access suffered, you had to open doors and hatches to check the things that needed to be checked where the raf was wide open.
Norm
 
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scottessex

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I am on the side that agrees with the pilot being the one who is required to be safe,
take cars for instance, back in the 1960's Ralph Nader and his ilk were upset with automobile accidents, so they had a couple of schools of thought:
They looked into more extensive driver training, and decided that if drivers were better trained, they would have a false sense of confidence and take more risks....So they decided that cars should be safer...

So yes we have safer cars, BUT, the caveat is that now since cars are so safe, imbeciles can now scream down the highway at over one mile a minute, in a 2 ton vehicle while texting on a cell phone, 8 speakers blaring, and stuffing a Big Mac down their gullet driving willy-nilly, and they are spared from a frighful early grave in a firey accident, instead they are free to breed more imbeciles, so humanity is getting more stupid with each generation.

(I am not against safe cars or safe gyroplanes, just proper, basic, advanced, and complete training is very important)
 

Cammie Patch

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So yes we have safer cars, BUT, the caveat is that now since cars are so safe, imbeciles can now scream down the highway at over one mile a minute, in a 2 ton vehicle while texting on a cell phone, 8 speakers blaring, and stuffing a Big Mac down their gullet driving willy-nilly...
Heck I can do all that, and drive a stick shift at the same time, which, as you all know, is amazing since I'm a girl.

I crack myself up.
 

fara

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What are going talking about.
I am working on a gyro with auto pilot and can't wait till the self driving car can drive behind my cross country route to provide me ground support :)
 
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thomasant

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I think you've hit upon the perfect option to the flying car concept. Fly to the destination in the aircraft, and have your driverless car waiting for you. Wouldn't that be nice!
 

scottessex

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I think you've hit upon the perfect option to the flying car concept. Fly to the destination in the aircraft, and have your driverless car waiting for you. Wouldn't that be nice!
Yeah but your car would arrive 3 hours after you do because it was stuck in traffic...:lol:
 

thomasant

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Oh no Scott, you messed up my dream! Hmmm...Oh well, maybe by then all the cars will be driverless, and there won't be any traffic jams.;)

In the end it will be the person behind the machine that will make the difference.
 

Doug Riley

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Right, Brent. Carry the taper lines of the cowl right through the prop disk, continuing with a matching spinner to complete the "teardrop" shape. It would help with prop noise, better performance and more effective tail feathers.

Ernie Boyette and Dick Degraw did a nice job of this in a SXS gyro with their LFINO. Or just copy the Hughes 500 body.
 

SIIaCanuck

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A good practice this is, my young padawan!

:)
Scrolling through old topics I've commented on and I find a reply from one of the crusty old buggers who taught me part of the trade and led me through some dark nights in a sandbox.

Didn't know you'd become part of the gyro dark side. How's life treating you? Still QFI'ing or have they pensioned you off and forced you to fly your own aeroplanes now?

Of course, I've now revived a 3-yr-old thread, but I'm sure it'll be of value to someone.
 

Resasi

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Its a great old thread, some of the participants did tend to get a little frosty...still do, but the insights and knowledge that were chipped in by the varied experiences and knowledge pool were invaluable nuggets to be mined by the newbies.
 

XXavier

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The Magni M24 is very much like the gyro suggested in message #131

myRAF_full body.jpg


Captura de pantalla 2019-12-11 a las 9.30.05.jpg
 

Brent Drake

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I think overall the manufacturers/dealers of the new generation European machines are doing a good job. I definitely see a shift toward more standardized instruction, CFI accreditation, and better POHs/maintenance manual availability.

It would be difficult to quantify the number of accidents per aircraft or flight hours for each type. I would love to see this info.

But, I did download the entire accident database from the NTSBs website from 1968 to the present. From that I was able to get a pretty good picture of the safety of the new european models vs. the older generation gyroplanes.

It blew my mind.

Overall, the chances of having a fatality in a gyroplane accident is 35%. THIRTY-FIVE PERCENT!!!! That is atrocious. Now, if you separate the European models from everyone else, that rate falls to 9%, which is about the best in aviation. In fact, in the USA there has only been one fatal accident in a New Generation European model, and that was a wire strike over a river, the vintage hardly even matters.

Take a look at the fatality rate of some of the popular older generation models. This represents an occupants likelihood of dying if they have an accident. This is for any type that had five or more reported accidents:

Sparrowhawk 22%
RAF 2000 29%
Dominator 31%
Barnett 33%
Bensen 36%
Sport Copter 58%
Air Command 59%

All European new generation models combined: 9%

AutoGyro alone has well over 100 aircraft flying in the USA, and yet they have had ZERO fatalities. TBH, I've only heard of two accidents that had serious injuries, and ironically it was the same aircraft that crashed twice.

My being a dealer for AutoGyro may make it look like I'm biased, but the truth is, I chose AutoGyro because of this data and other characteristics like this.

I've been actively instructing in AutoGyros for about 2.5 years now, and I have never had an accident, nor have any of my students had any accidents. Actually in my 16 years of instructing pilots, none of my students (or myself) have ever had any accidents. I just teach the POH, good ADM, and use other accidents as examples.
Cammie, Your not going to count the bad accident with Chris Lord?
 

Learjet

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"why don’t they make safer pilots?"
Yep , that is a better question .
Absolutely agree. The vast majority of gyro accidents accidents are "behind the power curve" related.
Maintaining Airspeed! Airspeed! Airspeed!
That's what I believe needs to be drilled into student gyro pilots.
Unfortunately, and unlike in fixed-wing aeries, with gyros there are no telltale warnings of an impending "behind the power curve" situation. No precursor warnings of buffeting, sloppy controls, stall warning buzzers, nor does the ASI in a gyro have referenceable VS1 & VSO green & white bands.
If the pilot is not properly monitoring airspeed, or sufficiently experienced to have that "seat of the pants" feel for it yet, that's when getting behind the power curve bites.
 

WaspAir

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The vast majority of gyro accidents accidents are "behind the power curve" related.
The U.S. NTSB reports certainly don't support that. There are low-g events, wire strikes, poor rotor management on take-off, roll-overs after touchdown, engine failures, and hosts of other disasters that are not caused by flying in the region of reversed command.
Maintaining Airspeed! Airspeed! Airspeed!
That's what I believe needs to be drilled into student gyro pilots.
Unfortunately, and unlike in fixed-wing aeries, with gyros there are no telltale warnings of an impending "behind the power curve" situation. No precursor warnings of buffeting, sloppy controls, stall warning buzzers, nor does the ASI in a gyro have referenceable VS1 & VSO green & white bands.
If the pilot is not properly monitoring airspeed, or sufficiently experienced to have that "seat of the pants" feel for it yet, that's when getting behind the power curve bites.
I don't understand your concerns as stated. What sort of catastrophe do you think is "impending"? What exactly is it that "bites" without warning?

There is no sudden event that arises when one flies a gyroplane in the region of reversed command. Every time one flies slowly, lands, or does a vertical sink you're in that speed range. In an aircraft that can't stall, it is as benign as any other speed regime. Eventually, as one slows, you reach a point at which level flight can no longer be maintained with power, but it's not a sharp precipice from which you suddenly drop.

It is possible on take-off to horse an aircraft out of ground effect with inadequate speed to continue climbing out; is that what you mean?
 

XXavier

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The U.S. NTSB reports certainly don't support that. There are low-g events, wire strikes, poor rotor management on take-off, roll-overs after touchdown, engine failures, and hosts of other disasters that are not caused by flying in the region of reversed command.

I don't understand your concerns as stated. What sort of catastrophe do you think is "impending"? What exactly is it that "bites" without warning?

There is no sudden event that arises when one flies a gyroplane in the region of reversed command. Every time one flies slowly, lands, or does a vertical sink you're in that speed range. In an aircraft that can't stall, it is as benign as any other speed regime. Eventually, as one slows, you reach a point at which level flight can no longer be maintained with power, but it's not a sharp precipice from which you suddenly drop.

It is possible on take-off to horse an aircraft out of ground effect with inadequate speed to continue climbing out; is that what you mean?

I agree that distraction while flying 'in the region of reversed commands' may easily cause an accident. If you're really distracted, it may be too late when you realize that you are descending rapidly and the ground is too close. I have had at least two near-crashes for that reason. Once, I was chasing a deer on a flat-topped hill, and only the precipice at the edge allowed me to dive and recover. Another time, I was orbiting a house, and when I realized that I was too low and slow, and sinking rapidly, I had barely the height to recover. I skimmed the ground and 'harvested' a lot of tall grass...
 

Vance

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The FAA appears to feel airspeed is important flying a gyroplane because they have practical test standards for airspeed and altitude as well as a required maneuver called recognition and recovery from low airspeed and a high rate of descent as a part of the proficiency check ride.

Slow flight is also a part of the proficiency check ride.

My pre-solo test includes questions about Vx, Vy and minimum speed for level flight for that aircraft under specific conditions.

We practice recognizing a high rate of descent without the airspeed indicator because that is an important part of aircraft control.

I agree with J. R. that most of the accidents in the NTSB do not have low airspeed as a primary cause.
 
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