Where's Mike, the SoCal Gyro CFI?

[Michael Stump]

One gyro that interests me still is the Brock KB3. I have some KB3 questions for somebody, anybody. I had the opportunity to drive one around that was owned by somebody else a number of years ago. It was essentially stock. I found it to be a total rush in flight due to it's light weight and great power-to-weight ratio. The blades felt slightly "draggy" in flight but this is better than having them a bit too slick on the KB3.

One thing about the -3 that I never really cared for, though, was the Brock prerotator design (that funky twisted belt scenario with telescopic shaft was just too Rube Goldberg for me).

I found the KB3 to be a handful and not for the novice, even on the ground. It just seemed to have tight margins, but if you are careful, it is a very capable piece of gyroware.

If I get back into gyros (vs. helos, and which I am still researching; this is part of that research), this is a machine that I would consider owning, however, I wonder about the following:

What is the status of new parts availablity for the KB3?

What factory or aftermarket components are available for the KB3, if any, to add stability or make them less twitchy? This is with respect to the tail group and/or the frame (such as a tail with greater tail volume and generous stabilizer and/or a drop keel kit that changes the thrust line)?

Are these changes to the tail and/or frame popular KB3 modifications and worth investing in? Who supplies them? How does the bird fly after the mods?

Is there a Wunderlich prerotator device (or equivalent) out there that is commonly found on the KB3? Is there some other prerotator device for the KB3 that has become popular? Who supplies it?

Is there a folding mast kit available for the KB3 specifically?

I always disliked the feeling of raw plastic seat tanks because they don't seem to offer enough crack-traction, if you know what I mean. Is there an off-the-shelf seat tank cover for the KB3 tank? Is it the same as the Commander seat cover?

Thanks in advance to anyone that has info. Highly appreciated as always.

And for Tina: Ah, yes. Breakfast at French Valley. That is a great flight. We used to do it all the time and is well worth it. Consider using the rotorcraft pattern there; it is not the same as the airplane pattern. French Valley often has gobs of fixed-wing traffic and they don't take too kindly to slow gyros in the pattern. Just be careful and prepare thoroughly before venturing in there. If you are non-N-numbered, check into the current status of the ultralight pattern. Furthermore, you will want to use a radio there even though it is technically not required. Way too much going on to "fly blind" near French Valley.

 

[gyromike]

One gyro that interests me still is the Brock KB3. I have some KB3 questions for somebody, anybody.

Mike,

Ken Brock Manufacturing is now out of business. There are no parts available unless you find them used. I believe that all of the tooling was sent to the dump for liability reasons.

There are a few that have been modified with tall-tails and drop keels, like Richard Kennedy's in Arkansas. Here is a thread with a picture of his. There are also a couple of pictures on that thread of Mark "Friendly" Carmouche's drop keel conversion. Mark uses a Dominator tail, and Richard uses a tube and fabric tail with seperate vertical stab and rudder. Richard says the conversion made a world of difference.

I think it's Don Parham that had the cluster plate templates for the drop keel. It's not that difficult to do. Mark Carmouche could probably send you pictures of how he did his. You basically cut the keel between just ahead of the axle and raise the front of the machine 8".

Since you can't get Brock Tanks any more you might want to look at Tom Milton's seat tanks at www.calumetair.com. I use one on my Bensen and it fits me fine. You can see a picture of my gyro on the above web page. Tom sells covers also.

One of the simpler prerotator setups I have seen is the Wunderlich setup that Ernie Boyette uses on the Ultrawhites. It uses a 12" disc between the prop and prop flange. The lower drive unit is mounted almost vertically. When I flew the Ultrawhite, I easily got the RRPM's over 200. I'll attach a pic.

I don't know about the folding mast option. You would probably be on your own, but a tall tail would rule that out.

 

[Tina]

Here is a pic of that KB3 that Dave bought from that guy at Hemet. He has changed some things. He raised the seat up and put a T-Tail. He said it flys better and more stable with that tail.

 

[dabkb2]

Mike

Mike

I really like my KB3, I put a Herron T tail on it and raised the seat 4 inches and it is not twitchy at all. Even in gusty winds the horizontal stab really does it job

Wonderlick makes a nice prerotor set up like the 1 on some Air Commands, but it adds weight. I just keep my eye on it, and don't push it to hard, and the Ken Brock set up does work. A little wind helps.

As far as the drop keel, I don't see it all that necessary After I raised the seat and put a good horizontal stab on, It is very stable.

Tom Milton makes a good seat cover, I have 1 but have not put it on yet. I'm sure that this winter it will go on. The seat can be cold in the mornings.

As far as parts some of the KB2/Bensen stuff is the same, but you will have to find them used. There are still a lot around.

The best thing that I did was get some Rotordyne blades. The performance difference was incredible.

Hope to see you at Hemet some day, It will have to be a couple weeks, I am stuck on this fire till it is over, work is work.

As far as the folding mast, you can make one, but I can get it in my garage. It is not to bad you just have to pick up one side till the mast clears and it goes right in a standard door.

Here is a link to me flying https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBVhq5udUm4

 

[Brent_Brown]

I had a KB2+. KB2 made to use a rotax 532. I made a nose gear like the KB3 has, longer mast and tall tail. It had rotodyne blades with no prerotor. It was what I started out with and was a great flying gyro.

I think a UL can still be made with the flat axle and bigger wheels if you use the MZ202 engine. The 20 pound lighter engine should give you the weight for the tall tail too.

 

[Michael Stump]

Excellent info for me to add to the pile. The photos are a big help as well, so thank you all. I really dig that modified KB2... The idea of sticking with a Bensen/Brock-type bird is becoming more appealing all the time, especially since you all aren't generally having to chop up the frame significantly. Sounds like the tail is the big thing to be concerned with here...

I am also realizing that I don't have time to sit in a machine shop all day and build parts. If I go the gyro route vs. the helo I probably will buy something used but not abused as make changes slowly over time. This is exciting stuff but I haven't ruled out the helo thing just yet. Great info, folks. Thanks!

 

[Dean_Dolph]

.....But for today, just as plain ‘ol Mike, a quickly-aging, rapidly-graying man terribly humbled and exhausted by the overwhelming act of having twins at a relatively late age in life, and losing the valuable second income that my wife consistently delivered for years. I never had kids before; I was terrifically afraid of the thought. Well, I have ‘em now and it appears that I’m not turning back. And, I am flat-ass tired.

Old?!! Nah, this post of yours still shows the passion that you have always exhibited and as long as a person has that they will never be old. Now the body.....But, hey, from my experience, and I got some, the old saying that life starts at 40 is true.

..... I guess it’s a good thing I type pretty quickly.

Yeah, but you are starting to qualify for the 'Succinct? What's dat' club that I'm the founder of with Greg G. the current prez!

.....So, twins girls, no less. The next two decades or more are going to be tough. I hope I actually survive them because I have a suspicion (call it gut feel) that I might not. I think I’ll be dead by 50, and I am 40 now, but this is in my heart yet I don’t want it to be. I want to be there for my girls forever, but my body tells me otherwise. I shouldn’t be so trashed at my age, but I am......

Girls are the best; I have two myself and felt they were easier to raise than the boys I saw my friends raising. And then I remember my parents having to raise me!

It sounds like to me that you are going thru the same crisis that all guys go thru when faced with the responsibility of kids. It is scary at any age but we all manage and as we get older we appreciate the family more and take pride in what we have achieved. The pay back comes with their accomplishments and the grandkids!

.....Somebody recently asked me outside of the forum if I would return to flying, specifically as a Gyro CFI. .....

I'm really sorry to hear this but recognize that life the last few years has been a little rough. I doubt if you recall but we exchanged a few emails back when Chapter 62 was gathering info for a chapter training system. I was very impressed with your thoughts and when I brought your name up at Bensen Days a few years later, in a training discussion with Jim Mayfield, I found him to be very complimentary. Any chance you still have your training syllabus/lesson plans?

.....As a gyro CFI, I found that on occasion, a student would ignore my advice and do things that got them into trouble when my back was turned, in their own machines.....

Yup, this is the biggest fear every CFI, that Chapter 62 interviewed, expressed!

If I'm wrong about this then Marion Springer, or someone else, can correct me. But during an interview with Marion at El Mirage in 2001, I interpreted one of her statements to indicate that she pretty much confiscated the student’s gyro until they were ready to solo. No gyro, no trying to fly behind her back!

I've never verified this but I've also been told that another very well know gyro instructor does pretty much the same thing but under guise of 'bring your machine here and I'll make sure it is rigged correctly'. And the then rigging doesn't get checked until the student is ready to solo!

.....I’ve missed you guys, the forum, flying, and the feeling of freedom and actually having money to spend on aviation. Let’s just hope the old saying that “history repeats itself” is actually true. ….and so that is my desire.

Mike, it is good to have you back. Hang in there and things are going to turn out just dandy. You are at an age that is right between the ages of my two daughters and my unprofessional diagnoses is that you may be suffering the malady that I see in them occasionally and even more in my grandkids. And it must be an evolutionary thing since they couldn't have got it from me!

The malady is lack of patience. I suspect that it was manifested by the fact, that by any measure, you had attained some success and then because of some events the rug was pulled out from under you. Your talents didn't disappear with those events but your life plans were certainly disrupted. So, just remember to keep an eye on the future and take to heart the adage that regardless of length, it is the trip that is important and not the destination.

Enough philosophizing and playing the elder even if I qualify! I would suggest that the new people do a search for Michael's previous posts and see for yourself the passion that he brings to the rotorcraft community. I've attached a picture of his impressive training machine that he sold.

Now, what is my word count? I think I have enough to remain a member of the ’Succinct? What’s dat?’ club!

 

[Dean_Dolph]

...Sounds like the tail is the big thing to be concerned with here...

Yeah, the tail, and CLT or NCLT, which I know you already recognize as being necessary for a stable machine.

But, if I were rebuilding or designing a machine, I would seriously consider the tall tail that Dick DeGraw built for Carl Schneider. The Dominator type tall tail has proven itself but I prefer the fixed vert/horz stab with the conventional separate rudder. The DeGraw tail would be an interesting exercise if done with composites and using a carbon fiber or Kevlar hinge (they are available!) between the rudder and the vertical stab; no gap!

Eyeballing CLT isn't reliable but I doubt if anyone is going to suggest that Carl's machine has a high thrust line!

 

[CLS447]

Maybe I missed this but........

Mike, what has become of that beautiful red gyro of yours ?

Also you did an article on prop thrust. The Prince P-tip was the winner.

We all seem to be having trouble seeing this on some ships.

Any thoughts?

 

[Michael Stump]

O.K., here goes. This will appear to be a collection of random thoughts but they answer to a few things mentioned in the last few posts in this thread.

Yes, girls are the best!

Succint? What's that?

Jim Mayfield was complimentary about me at Bensen Days? Thanks, Jim! What does this tell you about Jim Mayfield? If he was complimentary, then that tells you that I was becoming quite an accomplished pilot and CFI. Who trained me? Jim Mayfield. This should be taken as a reflection of Jim's ability to teach and fly. I clearly didn't do it on my own, and thus I found myself becoming a lot like Jim because he trained me and I did what I could to be like him, fly like him, think like him... damn, he's good.

Lesson plans and syllabii? Yeah, I created an extremely detailed set and offered them up to a bunch of Gyro CFI's and the PRA for free. Somebody out there has a set that should be available. Mine are somewhere in deep storage but I have no idea where. I will keep an eye out for them but I wouldn't hold your breath. Deep storage means deep storage, but I'll look.

As a CFI, I can't confiscate a gyro unless it is parked in my hangar. My students didn't tend to bring their gyros with them. Besides, they would be entitled to it back on demand, because it would be unlawful to take somebody else's property hostage. This just wasn't something that worked for me. It made more sense for Marion because people tended to bring their gyros to the lake bed and Marion could easily seize them. Unrelated thought: I do recall my first trip to the lake bed and I kid you not, I saw a homemade "Bensen-type" that had a 4-inch diameter galvanized steel chain link fence post for the mast. I am not kidding!

The rug was pulled out from under me? Yep, I'll say. 9/11 sure didn't help at all.

Was I passionate about the rotorcraft community? Without a doubt. So much so that I had a diet of 6061-T6 aluminum, 4130 chrome-moly steel, DuPont Nason paint, AN hardware and I'd wash it all down with a nice Big Gulp cup full of 100LL (goes down smoother when mixed with AV-2, BTW, and it doesn't burn the back of your throat as much).

Wow! That red gyro looks sweet! I have a vague recollection of that thing. She was 64 feet tall, 48 feet long and 29 feet wide. Weighed 3.14 metric tons, and yielded 45,000 pounds of thrust, if my memory serves me correctly. She was sold a few years ago in order to help pay the mortgage, along with a bunch of other stuff post-9/11. I thought about converting her to the world's largest single-place but heck, I needed the money.

I do understand the significance of tall-tails and CLT. The problem is that I have experimented with tail designs and have informally measured the effects of changing them, but I personally have no valuable experience with CLT machines. Never flown them with any amount of detailed data collection efforts so I can't claim that I would be able to validate the effects of a major frame change. Sounds like a tail upgrade might be better for me than CLT, even though I realize that both might be the best. We'll look more into this one a bit later.

The article I wrote was a three-part assembly called "Prop Shop 101," for Rotocraft magazine. It was focused on gyro prop slection and fundamentals of prop design but did mention thrust. And yes, of the props tested, the Prince P-Tip won hands-down. One reason I can tell you that you don't see this prop to often is that the TOT between the time you place the order and the time you see the prop was something like a year. Lonnie Prince may have fixed that, so don't let this information contribute to a purchasing decision. Talk to Prince directly if you are interested.

Lonnie Prince builds some very fine props (some of the best in the world), but at the time, he was handling a large, high-priority military order and this slowed things down. This long lead time news gets around and is not good for business, but still, a P-Tip is worth the wait. You generally find his props on four-stroke gyros, however, some users have had problems with significant resonance conditions when used in certain engine and redrive combinations. Not to worry, this is not a problem with his props, but rather it is a compatibility issue in certain gyros. Even the Bell 47 has stabilizer bar resonance problems and this is a certificated aircraft. You simply must avoid flying in the resonance range if it is significant. The Bell 47, BTW, had a resonance range at less than flight rpm, so you couldn't fly in resonance anyway, but you did pass through it on wind-up.

The only way to test this is to install a P-Tip on your gyro and see what it tells you.

I would still highly recommend the Prince P-Tip; I recall it being brutally efficient, ridiculously quiet, and a good value overall. Not to mention, it was so beautiful that you almost wanted to not use it and just call it "art." Beautiful, to say the least.

Hope that answers a few things without being excessively long-winded.

I learned a new word today: "Brevity." With that said,.

 

[Michael Stump]

Some final thoughts on this thread....I’m building a good picture of what might be most appropriate for me gyroware-wise. Thanks to all of you for your contributions, suggestions, ideas, comments. Because I am also commercial helicopter-rated, it would be good for me to still consider the experimental/ultralight helicopter options.

Here are a few thoughts on this; I’d like yours, too: A used CH-7 Angel, Revolution Mini 500, Lonestar, Mosquito, Scorpion, SkyTwister or Adams-Wilson variant thereof? I really want to remain single-seated if at all possible.

Are there single-seat helos out there in flying condition and also well-built? Not to mention, for sale from time-to-time? Any that should be avoided at all costs? If so, why? How much moolah can I expect to need up-front? Anybody want to just donate one to a good cause? (kidding…well, sort of…)

I always liked the Scorpions and the Skytwisters. They just look cool to me. And, I’d be happy just hovering around endlessly in or close to ground effect so that I could continue to develop techniques where I left off, e.g. picking up a pylon with a skid, slope landings, engine-out autos IGE, loss-of-tail-rotor autos IGE, LTE management in windy conditions, pirouettes, flying sideways, backwards, and my personal favorite, the Ag-Turn (the latter not entirely IGE, of course). These were always the most enjoyable aspects of helo flight for me anyway.

The engine options must be truly viable and properly selected. I am not OK with a Johnson outboard running my helicopter, nor am I OK with using a Ford 9-inch rear-end somewhere in the system driven by a 6-pack of weed whacker engines, or similar unfortunates. This does not mean that I won’t fly the Rotax, as these are still my all-time-favorite powerplants.

I don't personally fear Rotaxes in helos running at high rpm because these engines, as supplied, are quite detuned. For a two-stroke, they tend to actually run at relatively low rpm and can easily be set up to tolerate higher output. Mr. Fetters addition of a tuned pipe on the Mini 500 is a classic example of what can be done to affect the tuning of a two-popper (which includes making a shift in or change the shape of the torque curve as necessary) so I'm not going to rule out this approach if it is necessary for production of power in a helicopter application, whcih basically means a lot of power and high rpm constantly. Depending upon the make and model, I'd also consider putting the aircraft on a diet; that is, remove unnecessary weight without compromise of the basic integrity.

Your thoughts on the matter, por favor? Thank you!!

 

[GyroDoug]

Fly Any Way You Can!!!!

Fly Any Way You Can!!!!

Michael,

I fully recognize that you have much more time and experience in flying all types of aircraft than I do, so for me to be offering any kind of advise to you seems a little pointless. But I would point out something that seems to be inconsistent in your discussions here.

While I understand that you have flown both Helicopters and Gyros and are adept at both, and I understand that Helicopters can do things (like hover) that Gyros can't, and that you really like to do things that Helicopters do, you don't currently own a Helicopter or a Gyro and the reason you give for this is financial. Many of us that fly Gyros would love to have a Helicopter but the reason we are attracted to a Gyro is that it can do many of the things a Helicopter can do but for a small fraction of the cost. (both to acquire and to operate) That's why they're called the Poor Mans Helicopter.

Unless you have some significant change coming to your financial picture in the near future that you haven't shared with us, you are and will continue to be in the same financial category as most of us here on the forum. And for most of us common folk being able to afford to buy or operate a Helicopter is just beyond what the family budget can handle. That's why we are attracted to Gyros. They may not do everything we would like, but they can get us in the air and we can enjoy the heck out of them without selling our soul to the devil (or the banker). We can fly them until our life changes enough or we figure out a way to trade up to something that we want even more. It seems to me that flying something that only does 70% of what I love to do is a lot better than sitting on the ground waiting until I can get something that will do 90% of what I want to do. And there will alway be even more that we want. There is always something newer or improved that would be even better. Often we just have to make some compromises and do the best we can with what we currently have to work with.

Just my thoughts.

Gyro Doug

 

[Michael Stump]

Gyro Doug (and all), I see your point(s). First, your comments are not at all pointless. If you look at previous posts, you will see that I am requesting them and am considering all serious responses in order to help me make a purchasing decision in the near future.

Please let me clarify further. Yeah, I am adept at flying both gyros and helos, and thanks for noting that. I like flying both types. Frankly, I prefer helos because this was my latest set of experiences. I had moved out of gyros and straight into the Bell 47. No comparison as far as capabilities are concerned, however, both offer a very exhiliarating experience. I am open to both avenues as of right now. And yes, the financial aspect is the ONLY major thing that is currently in my way.

What needs to be understood is that I have a ton of gyro experience. My helo experiences are more related to a relatively short few years of very aggressive flying (meaning aggressive accumulation of flight hours and mastering as many aspects of helo flight as I could; the word "aggressive" not referring to defensive maneuvers or anything like that) in a certificated aircraft. I did achieve Commerical helo status.

I haven't properly investigated the ultralight and experimental helos until now because I spent so many years being gyro-centric. I effectively ignored that segment of the market until today. I have no idea what it takes finacially to get into an ultralight or experimental helo. No idea whatsoever, so this was a direction I felt worth exploring (well, unless you're talkin' Safari or Exec, which I know are excessively spendy).

I can only wish that I could expect some significant improvement to my financial future. There is none planned or none coming that I am aware of. As a matter of fact, I am currently considering a career change right now just to get out of that rut. Losing my wife's income has been extremely traumatic, yet she has always "allowed me" to spend some amount of money on things that help me keep my sanity, such as gyros! She's the best.

If I heard that I could get into a Skytwister for $10K or a gyro for $5-6K, I'd just plan on saving up a bit longer and likely go with the helo. Precisley why I am seeking input from folks like you. I simply have no idea what it takes to get into helos such as an old Mini 500 or the like.

My whole point here was to collect data and take a pulse on where things stand in the gyro community. I haven't been involved in a couple-three years and lost track COMPLETELY. I wish I hadn't got derailed in this way; catching up is a bitch.

It is as simple as this: If a helo ends up being too pricey, I buy a gyro. No big deal. I fly that gyro. I am happy with that gyro, and I get to sprout my wings for the second time. I would be entirely content with that for another decade or more. Great conversation...thanks!

 

[dragonflyerthom]

Here you go Mike

https://www.vortechonline.com/specials/

 

[Tina]

Hi Mike,

I heard that maybe a Pitbull gyro is going up for sale in our area here soon. I will find out the details. I always found them interesting. have you ever flown one?

 

[Tina]

I found out more about that Pitbull. Ed Nielesky in Norco is selling it. He is asking for only $6,000.00 and it comes with a enclosed tailer with a wench.

It has a 503 Rotax and Dragon Wings . Ed said it is in good condition but does not have a prop because the guy he bought it from must of had a prop strike with it.

I am going to Eds tomorrow to take a look see and take some pictures and put on the forum to help Ed sale it.

OK, now I am starting to think about Pitbulls! How do they fly different from our pusher gyros? Do I want to get this machine myself? Like Dave tells me you can never have to many gyros. I am going to have to move the Cessna out of the hanger to make room

 

[CLS447]

Great price for the gyro & trailer !

I am wondering what the wench looks like & how old she is ?

 

[dragonflyerthom]

Tina you and Dave are becoming addicted. YEp I'ma gyro addict also. I just can't afford any more.