Where's Mike, the SoCal Gyro CFI?

Michael Stump

Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2004
Messages
71
Location
Temecula, CA
Hello! Remember me? I hope so. It’s good to be back! As a gyro CFI? Nope. As a Rotax engine overhaul shop owner? Not quite. As an Experimental/Ultralight aircraft maintenance/fab/repair shop owner? I don’t think so. As a Bell 47 helo driver? Maybe… But for today, just as plain ‘ol Mike, a quickly-aging, rapidly-graying man terribly humbled and exhausted by the overwhelming act of having twins at a relatively late age in life, and losing the valuable second income that my wife consistently delivered for years. I never had kids before; I was terrifically afraid of the thought. Well, I have ‘em now and it appears that I’m not turning back. And, I am flat-ass tired.

I’m sorry I’ve missed out on so much, but I had to take a couple of years away from aviation to help grow my family and it has been beyond-difficult to actually free-up even a small amount of time for this forum and a few other relaxing activities. Even then, there still isn’t much opportunity but I’ll give it a good shot. I guess it’s a good thing I type pretty quickly.

So, twins girls, no less. The next two decades or more are going to be tough. I hope I actually survive them because I have a suspicion (call it gut feel) that I might not. I think I’ll be dead by 50, and I am 40 now, but this is in my heart yet I don’t want it to be. I want to be there for my girls forever, but my body tells me otherwise. I shouldn’t be so trashed at my age, but I am. I expected too much out of SkyTech, I guess, and ran myself into the ground. I hope I didn't dissatisfy anyone by my rapid departure.

I’m seeing a lot of familiar names out there and a few new ones on the forum. I am very pleased to see the forum as strong as always and that the gyro community keeps on tickin’…. A great job by Todd and the users for keeping this THE place to talk rotors, or whatever else. I am so pleased that it is still here.

My apologies if it is inappropriate to start a new thread for this kind of non-rotorcraft “fluff,” but please excuse me because I am still not familiar or comfortable with proper “forum etiquette” (look at my number of postings; I am not an expert by any means). I needed a place to say hello and let the world know that I am not dead yet. I’m doing the best that I can with the knowledge that I have. Ripping me a new one isn’t necessary. Please don’t hurt me; rather, use constructive criticism if I am out-of-line.

Somebody recently asked me outside of the forum if I would return to flying, specifically as a Gyro CFI. My answer is “Only as an act of sheer desperation. Even then it would take a hell of a lot for me to even remotely consider it, and even if I did think about it, the answer would still be “no,” so I guess I will never fly as gyro CFI again.” It simply can no longer fit into my life anymore because of the kids, my hellatious job, my wife, my house full of unfinished projects, and the blatant lack of money. We’ve become rather poor, to be honest and blunt about it. The way to make a small fortune in aviation is to start with a large one, right?

As a gyro CFI, I found that on occasion, a student would ignore my advice and do things that got them into trouble when my back was turned, in their own machines and at locations that I elected generally not to visit (such as El Mirage, because I had a nice paved runway at my disposal that was close to where I lived…who needs a crappy, dirty-ass dry lake bed when you have a real airport with real avgas and real airplanes and a real café and a real Unicom and a real hangar with electricity, concrete floor and bathrooms with real running water?).

These students are adults and are going to do what they want to because they can….they have had between 1-5 hours of dual logged and are immortal gyro-drivers that can’t get hurt because they know everything there is to know and they’ve read the damned Bensen manual and they think that the minimal amount of training just to get going is all they need. Yeah, right. “Who needs a CFI anyway? Bensen didn’t have one….” Whatever. Don’t invite me to your funeral.

I couldn’t contribute to that situation any longer….too emotional and I felt responsible, even though I wasn’t. It is hard to sleep when you hear that your student has rolled their machine and destroyed it. “He only became a paraplegic….look at the bright side, at least he has use of his arms and hands…” OK, so maybe I exaggerate, but still. I think you can appreciate my perspective.

Mind you, sometimes this happens only after a handful of hours and no solo endorsement and without the CFI “permission,” but it happens anyway and you wear it for the rest of your life. Well, at least I do. More so, especially if they had been hurt. I once had a student do the high-speed-taxi-acrobatic-rollover-act in a new RAF 2000 and fortunately there were no injuries, but there could have easily been a fatality if the dice rolled just a little bit differently and this yahoo had first gone airborne. Why the hell were you even taxiing?

Yeah, somebody told the FSDO that I was the CFI. I had to explain myself to the local FAA/FSDO guys for about 6375 hours and luckily for me, they understood and agreed with my angle. I got the old “you didn’t do anything wrong, but don’t do it again” kind of response. Don’t they call that something like a “709 checkride?” I don’t recall, but I passed the exam/interview/checkride and they agreed that it wasn’t my fault and there wasn’t much I could have done to prevent the situation. They threw out something like “Solo flights are traditionally supervised. You should have been supervising this activity...” I threw out “Yeah, according to tradition and as a stretch, Advisory Circulars, but not regulations. There are no regs that require me to supervise solo.” They said, “Uhhhhh.” “Uhhhhh.” "Uhhhhh." It ultimately doesn’t matter anymore anyway. So, what’s a CFI to do? Lesson: Don’t be afraid of the FAA; they are actually very nice people. Homo-sapiens, just like you and me.

This commentary should not be interpreted as “Mike will never fly again.” Granted, I did let all of my ratings lapse. This should really be rephrased as: I am still Commercial gyro and helo rated, but don’t have a current medical certificate and thus am not legal to fly right now. I need my medical and BFR and I can be back in the saddle tomorrow if I so choose. As much as I would love to, I just can’t right now. Maybe later.

I miss my first gyro, a single-place “classic-style” Air Command Commander tremendously (she started as an early, dangerous, banned-in-England-eventually Fetters model without the CL thrust—pre-Commander Elite era. An early-80’s bird. She was even equipped in the beginning with the super-short-coupled tail group, the single 2x2 mast, and even the pump stick. And, she was equipped with the sweet, inverted Rotax 532, my favorite engine on the face of the earth--she was so reliable!). Of course, I did upgrade later to the longer rear keel tube, redundant mast, 6x6 spun aluminum wheels with hydraulic brakes, late-model cyclic and an awesome SkySports instrument pod. And heck yes, I kept the 532, upside-down! Who says inverted Rotaxes aren’t reliable? They can be if you know what you are doing. Mine never skipped a beat after 3.14 billion flight hours. I guess I knew what I was doing.

As an unrelated side note, my first CFI was Tony Stone (shhhhh….currently residing in Wales….shhhhh…. I know somebody that insists they spoke to him fairly recently…shhhhh…. Tony was disliked by many but was a good friend of mine at the time. I helped build one of his last machines before his departure, an EA-81-powered side-by-side. I am going to make an effort to contact him someday soon just to see what’s up. One can easily fabricate “fatal bar room brawl” stories to hide themselves, but that’s another story….so shhhhh for now….). I’ll let you know what I come up with, if anything.

I went on to get my ratings from a “real” instructor-slash-designated pilot examiner, one Mr. James P. Mayfield and his partner, the very pleasant Terry Brandt (I hope I got that name right). Jim. My hero. The greatest gyro pilot/CFI/Examiner on the planet, IMHO. Flew his Parsons-type with the Mazda rotary as well as the RAF 2000. The Parson’s had extreme balls, by the way. Scared the crap out of me at full-Monte. I wonder what happened to it. Jim?

I soloed in the sickest piece of gyro hardware in existence…the killer early Commander. I soloed at Bear Creek Airport (a.k.a. Thompson Airfield) in Murrieta, California. Tony Stone’s home base at the time and a place that I am sure Mayfield will remember, because I think he flew-in there in his military days out of Camp Pendleton (my apologies if I am mistaken). It’s long been closed down and is a fenced-off overgrown mess at this point with nothing on it…no buildings, no runway….just simply gone. It is a field, not an airfield.

A bad-ass piece of machinery that Commander was, but Jim could have taught me how to fly a broomstick handle backwards with a turbine engine on it safely, for Pete’s sake (who is Pete, anyway?). For those who don’t know Jim, he is simply the best, IMHO. Hands down. He’s on this forum. He saved my ass from PIO-induced fatalities many times in my Commander and he doesn’t even know it yet (well, I guess he does now). Smart son-of-a-gun.

I got into vicious PIO in my Commander a few times early–on, and I would have died if it weren’t for the fact that I instantly remembered and applied what Jim had taught me, and so I recovered immediately. Never had PIO again after acquiring my Private ticket, and I am here to talk about it. I realize now that Tony hadn’t taught me squat. I flew one of the gnarliest, unforgiving pieces of hardware on earth and yes, I would not hesitate to do it again because I KNOW HOW. And yes, I still believe in that unstable-ass early Commander design. I just love it and yep, I’d fly one again. Successfully. Because I know how. Thank you Jim.

Maybe I’ll buy a more stable gyro platform now that there is so much hype around it these days (after I solve the affordability issue), but in my heart of hearts, I actually miss the ’ol Bell 47 helicopter much more significantly (my main focus, post 9/11). She and I had very good times together for what seemed like a gazillion hours. I think I put more hours on her in a couple of years than I did in ten in gyros. I flew the crap out of her every day I could. Rain, sleet, storm, hail…it didn’t matter. She was mine when I was in command. And I was keeping that seat warm as much and as often as I possibly could.

I understood her every quirk, vibration, and spurt of oil all over her drivetrain (not to mention the ground underneath her when she was parked; what a mess). She was a great “thumper” of a helicopter and performed, well, like a Bell 47 with wood blades and 200 horses or so should. Not a rocket ship by any stretch of the imagination, but still a wonderful machine that simply thumped you from one place to the next. When you heard that certain whine of the transmission, you knew that all was well. No other helo sounds or flies or whines like the Bell 47. You could drop all the gauges and just fly on the tranny-whine by itself. My guess is that some Korean-war era pilots probably did just that. Damn, what a great machine.

Makes me almost wish I was the age where I could have been Maverick and flown the Huey in ‘Nam, cuz I think I would have done it. I really do. Hueys are just bitchen. The Robinson R22? Yeah, had a few hours in that lightweight weedwhacker of a helo….too sketchy for me. Rotor inertia problems. You have to wonder about an aircraft that is so dangerous that it has its own section of the FARs just to inform you of its deficiencies…

What happened to the Bell 47, you may ask? Well, it’s unfortunate. A student elected to attempt a maneuver necessary for a solo endorsement but not recommended (and advised against) in early solo. The long story short is that, during a solo flight with an attempted run-on landing (“stuck-pedal” scenario, if I recall; not recommended to attempt in early solo flight), a bounce and an abrupt cyclic input caused rotors to meet tail boom very formally. You can visualize the rest.

Injuries? Yep, serious, but recoverable and recovered. The helo? Well, you can visualize I am sure. Probably not pretty. I did not witness the accident myself but heard about it almost immediately after it happened. It was an on-airport accident with an operating tower, so as you can imagine, there was support personnel on-scene immediately. I was some distance away at the time, but ultimately realized that didn’t have the heart to go see what was left of the machine I had become so familiar with. Let somebody else deal with it since it was scrap at that point anyway. She was, in a strange way, my baby; I couldn’t bear to see her in shreds.

I am considering getting back into the Bell 47 just for “joyriding” purposes, or perhaps some commercial activity as side job. It’s not the greatest with a permanently-attached camera mount as a photo platform (unless you want really blurry pictures; the Bell 47 was not known for the smoothest ride on the planet), but they do OK for certain other work. We’ll see. Not today, but maybe tomorrow. It’s an affordability problem at this point (and I thought kids would be relatively inexpensive!). Basically, here’s the issue: Four mouths to feed. One measly income. Nothing is affordable, including cable TV and things most of you are used to, such as electricity and running water.

I hope you all have been well. Me? I have since begun to rapidly turn gray and I am tired. Damn tired, but I have to keep it all going for the girls. All three of them. Just so you know, 9/11 is another other major factor in what killed my business. I’d love to hear a hello or two from some of you that I know (knew?) here on the forum. If not now, that’s OK, because there’s always tomorrow (theoretically speaking, of course).

I’ve missed you guys, the forum, flying, and the feeling of freedom and actually having money to spend on aviation. Let’s just hope the old saying that “history repeats itself” is actually true. If it is, then I’ll hear you guys on the radio near some tower someday. I’ll advise that I am maintaining visual separation. I’ll look for your rotor disk….and so that is my desire.
 
:typing: Welcome back Mike.

I really don't know you but I have enjoyed you mini book. Been there and done that with the family. Now I'm 60 and raising two grand sons. Kids really don't leave and some bring little bundles of joy with them for us to raise. Drugs have ruined a many a elder years. The grandkids keep me young. Hope to be reading some more of your life experiences soon.:lol:
 
Welcome home , Mike !

Good Luck with the twins. I have Identical twin nephews(my sisters').

I remember when they were little babies & now one is in Germany with the Air Force , the other one is still here looking for a girlfriend.

I still fly my Fetters 1986 447 Commander with original engine(new 503 on the way). My original training with Bill Parsons was brief but meaningful !

I've built a new SxS CLT AC with an EA81 with Souza redrive. Empty weight-700lbs.

It doesn't like passengers, so I am putting on an EJ25 with Autoflight redrive.

Dig up the Air Command archives & watch for my new postings. Your input would be appreciated !!

Thanks for the breath of fresh air here !
 
Thanks guys for your responses. I appreciate it. I have a question for you. Whan I want to add to a thread, do I type my text in the "Quick Reply" box at the end of the last posting (like I am doing now), or do I use the "Post Reply" button at the bottom of the last posting? I'm going to press "Post Quick Reply" button now to see what happens. And by the way, I have another intesting discussion for you, which I will start up shortly. You'll see it very soon. Thanks again.
 
You can do either, Mike.

By hitting the 'Post Reply' button, it will take you to the advanced screen where you can attach pictures, add smiley faces, etc.

Hitting the 'Go Advanced' button below the quick reply box will do the same thing if you've already started typing into the quick reply box and will also carry over your text.

Since I'm not adding smilies or pictures I'm typing this into the Quick Reply box.
 
Got it. Thanks. Here's another conversation on how I'm going to find a way back ito the pilots seat. Anything anyone can contribute will be highly valued....

OK. Here’s the quandary and I hope I can get some dialog as to how to solve it. I’ll let forum users steer some of the future here; I think that’ll be fun. YOU get to help me with the challenge. I’ll go along for the ride and consider the popular vote, adding information to generate a formal plan. Take a guy like me who made it to gyro CFI and Commercial helo driver status, was up to my eyeballs in rotorcraft alligators, who unfortunately had to bail out of aviation for a few years and sold off almost everything (I just realized that it has been five years since I flew a gyro and three or four for the helo. Wow! Doesn’t seem like it.). Now, assume that I miss flying tremendously and want to push ahead to find a way to get back into it now that I have reached a stability-point in life (I have a photo of a Bell 47 on the wall and every time I look at it, I just miss the heck out of flying both gyros and helos).

The dilemma: It would be great if money were no object and I could just run off and buy a gyro or helo today and pick up where I left off. Not possible. Aviation takes money. This will take calculations, planning and good execution. The challenge is to determine the best way to do this at the lowest possible cost, but without generating unnecessary risk. I have kids now so I can’t just jump into a twitchy, early Fetters-model Commander like I had before. I want to hear how YOU would do it.

Unfortunately, I have lost all track as to who is manufacturing what and where, and what things cost. I couple of thoughts I have are to lean on building or buying the Bumblebee/Gyrobee-type machine as my guess is that they would be the least expensive. True? I haven’t flown one and haven’t read one of those incredible Gremminger articles describing one specifically, so the issue must challenge and include the matter of safety as well. I don’t want to go cheap if the machine is trying to kill me at all times because of poor thrustline location or some other deficiency worth discussing. How do these machines do from the stability point-of-view? Should I pick some other type? Or should I just make sure that I have the thrust line set up appropriately regardless of the gyro brand?

There’s the option of buying a used gyro, but my experience tells me that this is risky because when you dismantle one for inspection, you sometimes find a ton of scary stuff that needs expensive corrections, often not visible without disassembly. What is the going rate for a used single-place with a Rotax? After “overhaul,” would I have been better-off buying a new engine to stick on the back of a plans-built bird? Should I stay away from the Rotax altogether and go with something else? What about the old VW-powered KB2 variety? Avoid it in its stock form? Is there currently a big market for used gyros that were built responsibly?

Then there’s the N-number angle; this would mean that I would need a BFR and a medical, and which would also cost me a trip to a designated examiner. If I went ultralight, I could avoid this step but then there’s an argument that says I shouldn’t fly again without some training anyway, so I have to include this in the cost. I feel like I could taxi carefully and work myself back into it, but is this too off-track? I haven’t done that before.

Then there’s yet another angle. If I went back into helos as a part-time CFI, I could start flying again and give the cost of aircraft ownership to somebody else. I’d just work as an instructor, but it would have to be in something other than a Robinson. Too many requirements and too much initial cost to go the Robbie-route because Robinsons require a certain amount of logged Robinson hours before you can even solo in one. As a helo CFI, I am sure I could earn a small amount of cash and put it directly into a gyro (or helo, such as the Skytwister variety?). I’d need a medical and BFR, as well as a checkride. My guess is that I could do all this with an additional 10-20 hours of dual to get me ready, which is an up-front expense, but then the paycheck comes in. What would a helo CFI get paid these days? And, do I just stick with flying somebody else’s helo and forget about the gyro altogether? And, one other angle….I could work overtime and just bank the money on one of those popular 5% interest accounts and just save up for a year, or two, or three. Hmmm. Lots of considerations.

My intent here is to get the gears going and figure out the most appropriate course of action. The criteria must include consideration of safety yet with the right balance of minimization of cost. For example, a non-CL thrust machine may be OK if folks out there have found it to be pretty stable or not too twitchy, but then do I just have to understand that there is no other option….I need CL thrust no matter what? If I recall, the gyrobee variety doesn’t use it but it is still a good machine that has maintained popularity. Then there are the Adams-Wilson helo varieties out there as well. What do they cost today? Are they too dangerous because of some innate unfortunate characteristic that I am not aware of or may have forgotten (such as an inability to autorotate with an engine out?).

If you wanted to fly again and it ultimately didn’t matter if it was in a helo or a gyro (could be both), what would you do? Thanks in advance for any suggestions, cost data, etc. I intend to simply use what you have to offer to help put together a plan, and without one, I doubt I’ll be successful in getting back into the seat. Data collection is key for today and I value your opinions.

Could I do all the research on my own and figure it all out for myself? Of course, but again, I have been removed from aviation for some time now and catching up on advances in technologies, availability of new and used helos, gyros, and parts is tough. Thanks so much for anything you have to offer, even if it is one simple awareness thing that I may have missed over the last few years. Perhaps I should have kept up with my subscriptions to Rotorcraft magazine….

By the way, I have a few parts remaining that I’m going to sell here on the site to start a fund. I have a pair of extended range fuel tanks, a complete tail group, an Air Command shock-absorbing tailwheel assembly, and a few other goodies. I will need time to inventory and prep them and write ads first, so I think I’ll get started with that process this weekend as well. Thanks again for any thoughts, suggestions, real-world cost data, etc. you can contribute.
 
welcome back

welcome back

You got out of gyro's before I got back into them.It would have been nice to have a CFI so close.Tina and I are gearing up to fly out of Hemet. We will be there next weekend.
 
Michael,

I am sure there are many people on the forum, better qualified to answer your questions, but since no one has spoke up yet, I will share my thoughts on your situation. Although you may feel like you are in a unique situation (financially or time wise) I want you to know that it is my opinion that a majority of us here on this forum can relate very well to your concerns. I believe most people that fly Gyros would love to be in helicopters but like you know they are very expensive to own and to operate. Gyros are the poor mans helicopter. However if you are just flying for the joy of being in the air and don't need the ability to hover or take off vertically, a Gyro really may be a better choice.

If the main goal is to get back into the air cheaply, you really aren't that far away from being where you want to be. With the new Sport Pilot program you don't even have to renew your medical to fly. You can get a flight review and then start flying any aircraft that meets the sport pilot qualifications. (2 seats or less, 1320 lbs gross weight, fixed pitch or ground adjustable prop) I can't think of any single seat Gyro that wouldn't qualify. However if you end up buying a Gyro that isn't N Numbered and is too heavy to legally fly as an ultralight (and most worth having will be) then you need to get it N numbered before Jan. 31st or you will need to be able to show that you built 51% and register it as a EAB aircraft with you as the builder.

I wouldn't normally recommend that any new person pick something like an old style Air Command to fly. However, since you have hundreds of hours in one and you like them, I think it would make a lot of sense for you. There are lots of used ones that can be picked up for less than $5,000 (and some quite a bit less than that). While that is still a chunk of money, I believe if flying is a priority for you, you will be able to find a way to come up with that. You can buy a center line thrust upgrade kit for these machines for less than $2,000 and convert it, add an adequate Horizontal Stabilizer and you will have a much more stable and safe Gyro. Depending on the shape of the used machine you may need to replace other parts too however taking it all apart and checking it out as you rebuild and upgrade can be a very pleasant experience and will certainly qualify you to know your new machine well enough to know what to look for when doing preflights and allow you to keep it in wonderful condition.

There are many new designs out there and several have features that I like better than what you will have with an old Air Command. However it will cost you more to build a newer Gyro and if what you are really trying to do right now is get back into the air as cheaply as possible, the Air Command would do that, and as long as you do the stability upgrades it will do it safely.

Engines are always a concern and right now the king of engines for light aircraft is the Rotax. Personally I think most people would agree the ultimate Single Seat Gyro engine would be a four stroke Rotax 912 but they are very expensive. So if money is tight, you need to make some compromises and a Rotax 2 stroke is the way most people go. They take more adjustment, fiddling and maintenance than the 4 Stoke version but you have experience with them already and stated in your post that you had great luck with yours. so for a person like you it sounds like a 2 Stroke Rotax would be a great fit and that is what your going to find on most used Air Commands anyway.

Trying to get into the air and fly as safely as possible without spending any more than we absolutely have to is where 90% of us are focused. Most of the people I know just get by financially. I have spent years dreaming of flying but having a family of 6 has taken all of my discretionary money. However, if the dream is big enough, you will find I way. You may have to start off with less than the ideal because that is all you can financially pull off right now. But as time goes on you can always upgrade.

Welcome back to the forum. We wish you all the success in the world as you find a way to get back in the air. Best of luck!!!

Gyro Doug
 
Go Helo CFI

Go Helo CFI

Hey Stumpy,

Welcome back. I think the money would be better spent on getting the helo CFI back up to speed. Spending the money that way is at least a little bit like sowing some seeds. At least you will have something that you can ultimately earn a little money from. That is also much easier to sell to a significant other than by buying a one place toy (believe me, that is how a women would see it). Plus you probably remember from before that being a CFI can lead to other things through a multitude of ways. You just never know who you will run into or what trusts you will be privy to as an instructor. When I was an active CFI it just seemed like I had a much more finely tuned grapevine than the regular airport bum. Not that you're necessarily looking for a flying job (God forbid) but you never know how one thing can lead to another in a positive snowball kind of a way. Well, whatever you decide good luck,

RP
 
Many Rotorway builders/owners/buyers would like to get their training on their own ships. Not many instructors are willing to do that. Not sure what RW's policy is on training nowadays after the introduction of the new Talon and the sale of the 162 and what insurance is available as a free-lance instructor, but this could be a niche market. Just an idea that may have a lot of negative side-effects...:yo:

Kind regards,
Willem
 
Hi Mike,

If I am not mistaken Dave has a KB-3 he bought from a guy at Hemet that said he went into partnership with you in some way. I am not sure what the story is but maybe you can enlighten us about that if true. I also heard you used to be at Hemet airport and was a instructor there?

Dave and I just brought our gyros to Hemet to start flying at the airport. We both been flying at El Mirage the last 2 years and thought we are ready to try something new.

We both would love to meet you and talk gyros. If your interested P.M Dave or myself and we can all meet at Hemet airport. I have a hanger there overlooking the runway. If anything you can have a beer with us and watch the planes come and go.

As you can see I am trying to entice you. It would be a treat for Dave and I to meet someone with your expertise so we can pick your brain. I am sure you have lots of stories too that we would love to hear. :yo:
 
Mike,

Future Flight (Xenon) and AirGyro (Sport Copter II/SS) may both be looking to place dealers in your area, which might allow teaching in someone else's gyro. Keep your ear to the rails, check here often, and be ready.

If these two companies are to have any shot at achieving their goals, they're probably going to need to look outside the current gyro ranks and transition helo CFIs to gyro CFI.

PRA Exemption 5209 is gone for good at the end of this month, so you'll need a written syllabus, and to get a deviation letter from the FAA, to instruct in an experimental. Both Xenon and Sport Copter have ambitions for ELSA/SLSA waivers, so that option may become available.
 
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I want to let you know that I appreciate all of your commentary significantly. It's been great food for thought. My apologies for the delay in my response, however my property has suffered some significant wind damage and I am up to the ears in repairs now. Fortunately, the SoCal fires are quite close but haven't made their way to my street, thank God. If I am slow to respond from time to time, please just be aware that I have a week or two worth of work now to restore my place to the pre-Santa Ana wind conditions and not a lot of time (again). This includes building two fences that got blown down. Just what we need, huh?

With respect to the KB3 at Hemet, yes, I am familiar with that gyro and the guy who sold it to you; however, I was by no means a partner with him in the financial sense. I just knew him and I gave him some space to work on that gyro. That's it. One thing nobody knows about that particular machine is that is was flown in a Stone Temple Pilots music video a number of years ago before it was sold and rebuilt to it's current condition.

Yes, I was flying out of Hemet. As a mater of fact, I know which hangar you are in. If you are familiar with the hangar that you’re KB3 was in at the other end of your row, that is where I was based for the latter two years or so. It's on the opposite end and it should have an old Cessna 150 in it now. I used to be in County hangar 37. I have a million stories I could tell you but right now I have to take care of fixing stuff on my house. Perhaps we can talk a bit later if you want details.

With respect to my decision, I have narrowed it down (slightly) based on all of your inputs (thanks again!!!!). I have assured myself that one thing I will not do is return to being a Gyro CFI. I have, however, considered all of your great advice and have elected to keep my focus on one of these two trails:

Stick with helos for now by flying as a CFI in somebody else's bird....or....

Buy a used but well-built gyro and remain in the non-N-numbered world for now....

In the helo, I decided that for my own safety I would buy hours just to run through all of the procedures and techniques for flying the thing, including autorotations, and a lot of them. Autos are a ton of fun (assuming you don't screw them up, of course).

In a gyro, I'd just be cautious and fly the darn thing. I have a ton of hours in pretty twitchy birds, so anything like a converted Commander or modified KB3 ought to do it. I am not worried about that like I would be in the helo. Lots of balancing on the mains down the runway is a great way to get the feel back.

As for crow hops, by the way, I have never believed in them and never will. That is why God made traffic patterns around airports. If you can crow hop, you can definitely fly a pattern! Doing so gives you time to relax and thus you don't have to think about executing a good landing immediately after takeoff.

A good landing requires a good approach. A nice long final is a great way to get set up. At Hemet, my favorite type of landing was always to touch down and stop right on the line without a ground roll. Taxiing off right at the runway 23 run-up area was always impressive because I never even used the runway (well, OK, so I used the first five feet of it).

As for costs, I have been poking around and have discovered that if I go the helo CFI route with some training or just buy a used gyro and fly it (assuming it is already converted for safer flight), the costs are similar. Both are front-end expenses which I can't avoid. I have decided to sell off a few items in my possession to start my fund to get back into flying and my goal is to hit the $5K mark before I jump into the seat. I think I can pull that off in about a year.

I best get crackin'...

Thanks again...talk soon.
 
Crow Hops?

Crow Hops?

Hi Mike,

Not sure why you got into the subject of crow hops but maybe a big mouth rude bird told you something about us flying at Hemet doing crow hops our first time out there. I only say that because after Dave and I posted a thread about our adventures at Hemet airport. This guy name Rob has been kind of harassing me about the subject.

Dave and I did just fine and had no mishaps with pilots or our machines. We wanted to do crow hops at first to test our engines and the jets since the altitute is lower then El Mirage. We did not want to run our engines to lean and have problems. We also thought it would be good to get used to the take off and landings on the hard surface runway before taking off in the pattern and getting our radios tweaked and ready. Jim Vanek believes in doing crow hops when testing his very expensive Super Sport prototype before taking up in the pattern. I think if you care enough for yourself and your machine you may want to test the water first or do crow hops till you know all is good before committing yourself to the pattern.

On learning to fly a gyro, I first thought like you did, why do crow hops when you can just go up in the pattern and come in for a landing and if you don’t like what you see go around. Will, I did just that and guess what in my case it was not pretty. I came in to land with not enough air speed and dropped it in and broke my machine and my pride. I told myself I need more training before trying this again. I got a new machine went to El-Mirage and listened to the great wisdom and advice of the gyro pilots out there, especially Marion Springer. I took to the air again but this time doing crow hops and learned what I needed to take off and do those landings over and over down the lake. I went up higher and higher till now I fly and land with no problems from any altitute.

I can go back now and see where I went wrong in my first flight in the pattern. It is very crystal clear now since doing crow hops. Oh yes I was told by my Instructor at the time I was ready to solo but guess what he did suggest I do crow hops first, but I did not listen. I thought like you did and that was my instructor told me I can SOLO! why waste my time doing crow hops. I am a fixed wing pilot and see no problem flying this gyro just like my Cessna in the pattern. I DID understand the differences but did not put into real good practice in landings. I was able to fly and land the trainer with no problems so why not my own machine? I really did not totally understand there is a big difference. Doing crow hops my machine taught me what I needed to do, how much power and air speed I needed to take off and land the sucker. To me that was the turning point it was magic to me and those crow hops. I totally knew my machine it was talking to me and I understood.

I do not recommend anyone doing crow hops for self-training. Your instructor needs to show you how it’s done and then be there if all possible doing them in your own machine. In my opinion with many others, is that going from a two place trainer to your own single place gyro, there needs to be a transition period to learn a new machine “YOURS” .

This is just my opinion. I am not wanting to change your mind. I think discussions like this is all good. Maybe it will open the eyes of newbies out there. They will choose what is best for them. I think it is my duty as a pilot to tell my story of crow hops. Maybe it well help another pilot out there with that difficult decision when taking first flight.

Now on another note, Just because we don't see eye to eye on crow hops dose not mean I do not want to meet and befreind you. I am sure Dave and I can learn a lot from some of those stories you have.The offer is still open to come and have a beer with us at my hanger and talk gyros, just not maybe crow hops :lol:
 
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Hi Mike.

I have trained with Ron Menzie. He trains very thoroughly in the Pattern. Each take off and landing includs one crow hop. First you take off fly the pattern then land on the numbers. Take off again go to 60 ft and land on the numbers at the end of the runway again. Taxi back then do the same thing again. Each hour of training will get me 8 take offs and 8 landings. Really a good system. I still like to read your posts. Hope this isn't stepping on your toes but hey it is the forum.
 
Good conversation and of course, no hard feelings whatsoever. I am not sure why I brought up the crow hop thing; I think it is because I recently have read about it still being popular, not to mention recent conversation about aviation in general has made me think so much lately about flying and specifically events that happened at Hemet when I was there (because this is where I was based and have a lot of great memories), not because of a certain person doing it specifically. And, I was not aware that person A was getting harassed about it by person B. If this is the case, then it is totally coincidental that I brought it up and it was also an open subject somewhere else.

With respect to crow hops, you have to look at if from the CFI perspective, which can be tough if you have never been a CFI. Students (and all pilots) need to be able to "compartmentalize." I learned this term from Jim Mayfield and this is what saved my life early in my career. It got me focused and out of PIO a couple of times. Serious PIO, but Jim burned some key things into my brain that I will never forget. This means that students (and all pilots) need to concentrate on the task at hand and not what happened ten minutes earlier. I absolutely feel that crow hops, early-on and with an inexperienced pilot, add risk that isn't warranted. It gets people into trouble because an entire takeoff, level-off, and landing sequence happens so quickly. Any CFI can do this all day long, but often students can quickly become overwhelmed.

The "compartmentalizing" is important for students because they are already overwhelmed by many things happening very quickly. If something was to get out of control, a student may not have altitude or time to sort out the appropriate response. Voila, there’s the end of the runway and suddenly OH CRAP, I HAVE A PROBLEM. Altitude is always your friend. Landing at the ass-end of a runway as a student is generally considered to be a bad idea, because runway behind you is useless, runway ahead of you is all yours. Time to regain focus can make all the difference in the world; you may not have it during crow hops. I trained heavily with Jim Mayfield and Terry Brandt and NEVER did crow hops, nor were they advised. No other form of aviation believes in them, and in my opinion, gyros should be included in this group. It simply isn’t necessary and it adds danger to an already dangerous activity.

As I mentioned, a good landing starts with a good final approach. I haven't seen many crow hops that really can genuinely claim they started with a good approach (at least at Hemet, where the runway isn’t infinitely long). A good approach can be gained by flying the pattern. This is not to say that I didn't perform endless crow hops in my machine with a student on board, because I did. What I am specifically concerned about are students who do them as soon as they learn how to solo.

The "compartmentalization" happens in training, such as learning to takeoff, then fly the pattern, then land, etc. A CFI will know what areas a student has difficulty with and can add training to that area so that the student remains focused and able to work on that area specifically. Once an instructor and the student agree that the student is able to do all of these things (including transitions between flight phases), the student is able to do them in solo, which to me, means that a student never needs crow hops. As I mentioned, I am not aware of any other form of aviation that does them; I simply believe that they are unnecessarily dangerous. I have personally witnessed students regret attempting them. I will spare you the details as to why this is so, but I think you get the gist.

As for the beer, yeah, I will take you up on that. It will be nice to meet you in person Tina!. Let's figure out how to make that happen soon. Are you ever in Temecula?
 
Just to add clarification, Jim and I never did crow hops together during my training, but I claimed that I did it with my students on board. This is true. Let it be clear that there were times when I felt it appropriate to do so in order to drive home certain aspects of the training. Crow hopping after solo would have not been recommended or advised whatsoever under any circumstances....at least not by me for my students. Add hours under your belt and have mastery of the machine, this is a different scenario. From time to time, I would crow hop and just fly sideways down the runway (during solo, after I gained experience), just to push some limits. Even better when it was windy (I think I flew in 60 know winds out of Hemet in the worst-case, during the dreaded Santa Anas. Great in a gyro if you are accomplished enough!).
 
As for the beer, yeah, I will take you up on that. It will be nice to meet you in person Tina!. Let's figure out how to make that happen soon. Are you ever in Temecula?

Yes, We all have to meet. Dave is real busy right now as a volunteer during the fires in San Diego. We are both supposed to be at the Wings Wheels & Rotors with our gyros for static display this Sunday, but not sure if we will be able to make it. Dave maybe busy for the next 3 weeks doing clean up after the fires. So saying that It may be some time before we can even go back to Hemet and fly.

Once where back at Hemet and flying again, we both want to start venturing out and fly around the area then start going to French Valley. I think it would be totally cool to fly up to French Valley airport on a Sunday morning. Dave and I would taxi over to the Restaurant park our gyros and go in for breakfast.
 
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