when a 767 flight goes wrong

scott heger

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Look at this radar tracking profile below for Hawaiian flight 457 yesterday from Honolulu to Japan. It got just past Kauai, made a u-turn and circled Kauai many times(probably dumping lots of fuel)and returned to Honolulu about 1 hour and 15 minutes after takeoff. I did not see any news reports, so I wonder what went wrong.

You can use the plus/minus button to blow up the flight circles it made. I will offer a free local helicopter flight if you can figure how many circles were completed.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/HAL457/history/20101215/0335ZZ/PHNL/RJTT

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH
 

Trez

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Who knows.
But it's not at all uncommon for an aircraft with a problem, especially shortly after takeoff, to circle in close proximity to a potential landing airport 'til getting down to landing weight. And Port Allen (very short runway) was RIGHT below their position while circling. He would have had to dump thousands of pounds of fuel to venture a landing on such a short runway but that's better than returning to Honolulu and losing the other one enroute and over the water. I wouldn't be surprise if he elected to climb the entire time he was circling for the obvious three reasons.
I lost the #2 engine on climbout in a DC10 departing Honolulu but was only at 1500' in the climb when it disintegrated. We did essentially what this track record shows - climbing 360 degrees 'til getting to landing weight (about 30 min.s) But we were only going to LAX. A lot less fuel than that 76 was carrying.
Let us know if you find out more............
 

RayPierce

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Flightaware

Flightaware

Is there a Flightaware utility that I can use to track ALL the air traffic over my house. It seems there is a lot more of it lately.
I know how to track air traffic to and from any airport but I'm looking for something that will track ALL air traffic over a given area.

You can probably determine it from the flight log how many circles he made at this link:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/HAL457/history/20101215/0335Z/PHNL/RJTT/tracklog
 
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scott heger

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TREZ, I agree, but the Lihue airport on Kauai is not really a option for a 767. LIH can barely land a 757 ...it takes all the runway with a plane that has used up 2600 miles worth of jet fuel from the mainland to lighten it up. My father lives on Kauai, and I fly there several times a year. The "mainland" 757's from Continental, United and Delta always uses the entire 6500 foot runway start to the end on landing (and takeoff)without exception. A 767, at gross,weighs 100,000 pounds more than 757 and takes about an additional 2,000 feet of runway.

If they were dumping fuel to return to Honolulu, I wonder why they did it so close to Kauai when they have the entire Pacific ocean to do so.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH
 

Trez

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TREZ, I agree, but the Lihue airport on Kauai is not really a option for a 767. LIH can barely land a 757 ...
If they were dumping fuel to return to Honolulu, I wonder why they did it so close to Kauai when they have the entire Pacific ocean to do so.
Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH
*******

Far too involved for a short post and I'm 'bout ready for the sack.......

Get back to you later.........
 

GyroRon

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I went to Hawaii for my first time, earlier this year. First time across water in a jet. First time across water of any sizeable size in any aircraft. I have to tell you, I was nervous. Kept thinking of what would happen if even in a best case, our captain was Sully and we could make a picture perfect water ditching. I mean here we were flying at 500-600 mph and were flying for hours over nothing but deep shark infested open ocean.

Those Islands look tiny as they come into view. It's kind of a trip that they were discovered at all..... I mean so far away from either mainland, to have come across those at all is amazing to me.
 

Heron

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Ron
When you die, all the pain stops for you . . .
How you got there does not matter, so relax and enjoy life, we are all going to die and I pray for we all to have a good death, swift and painless.
Traveling by motorcycle for long time was the worst case cenario for me, but I still am here. (bad for some :D)
Twice shot, twice escaped snake strike, those where hairy moments!
Be good my friend
Heron
 

Trez

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A 767, at gross,weighs 100,000 pounds more than 757 and takes about an additional 2,000 feet of runway.
Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH

***
The whole idea of dumping fuel is to get as far as you can from 'gross weight', i.e., LANDING gross weight!
***



If they were dumping fuel to return to Honolulu, I wonder why they did it so close to Kauai when they have the entire Pacific ocean to do so.

***
When you're down to one engine, the last thing you want to do is leave a potential landing opportunity to fly overwater to another, distant landing runway. There are times when - and this one seems to be one of them - you MUST land at the nearest suitable runway. But, here again, I don't know any of the circumstances of this flight. Don't even know if they lost an engine. Total speculation.......
***
 

scott heger

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Trez, I went to ATC live and listened when they landed, from approach and then to the tower frequency. This was not a "mayday" style event, I did not hear them declare an emergency, but when the plane got close to HNL I heard the tower tell another plane to hold for landing emergency traffic. I really doubt they lost a engine, as I think they would have returned much nearer the HNL airport to dump the fuel than 90 miles away in the hour they were airbourn. My guess is the plane climbed and pressurized, maybe a baggage door or landing gear door was a issue, or a pax had a medical emergency. The weird thing was nothing was ever reported in any of the local papers. A blown engine would definitely made some press.

Jon, I don't now how you figured it made 9 circles over Kauai, but you win the helicopter ride......just make sure you don't show up without one of those new adjustable hub bars I have been waiting for........Come on down to So Cal anytime you want, hope to see you soon.

Anybody know how long a 767 takes to dump most of the fuel. I think it exceeds more than 30mintes, it is not really that fast of operation.


Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH
 
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Trez

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My guess is the plane climbed and pressurized, maybe a baggage door or landing gear door was a issue, or a pax had a medical emergency.


The weird thing was nothing was ever reported in any of the local papers. A blown engine would definitely made some press.



Anybody know how long a 767 takes to dump most of the fuel. I think it exceeds more than 30mintes, it is not really that fast of operation.


Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH
Way too many things that could have happened here.
It's interesting though, I was once given a scenario in the simulator, to wit:
On climbout, wheelwell warning sounded requiring lowering of the gear to open the doors and then KEEP THEM OPEN TO COOL THE GEAR/BRAKES, which meant that we couldn't continue across the pond and needed climb thrust to maintain level flight 'til the light goes out. And we're too heavy to land, requiring dumping fuel which, on the 747 goes fairly quick with all four engines at climb thrust - 'bout 40 minutes. I've had dump valves not open and nozzles fail to operate, as well.
(That scenario would look much like the flight track on your post.)

Also, if you decide to dump, do it in a climb, otherwise you risk flying through and igniting your own fuel mist trail. What a sight that would be.

A medical emergency would look more like a turn or two with a FAST return to HNL, dumping enroute.

Beats me, but there are lots of things going on out there that don't make it to the news people, who ALWAYS get it wrong by the way.
 

Roundwing

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I have been a crewmember on at least 5 occations requiring fuel dumping and return.
None were due to engine failure.
One Blew tire on takeoff. Decintigrating tire ruptured #1 hydraulics.
Two were for blown bleed line in engine cowl causing over temp.
Two were for faulty airspeed indications. Same plane, Maintenance didn't fix it right the first time.:mad:
Dump time will be determined by the amount of fuel required to dump.
 

Trez

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Dump time will be determined by the amount of fuel required to dump.
***

Allow me to add:

The number of engines and fuel burn estimates are part of the calculation....

Because of weight and balance concerns, you may not be a able to dump from one or more tanks......

One or more dump valves/nozzles/fuel pumps, may not function as advertised (they are virtually impossible to pre-flight).......

In a non-emergency, you may have to delay dumping fuel due to the area you are located in, determined by ATC or the military......

In the event of total electrical failure you would not be able to dump at all.....

And, be aware, that in many aircraft, landing OVER landing gross weight limits may be exceeded......
 

BEN S

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Scott

Scott

Hey bro,
Still waiting for an address!
Ben
 

Master Roda

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Jon, I don't now how you figured it made 9 circles over Kauai, but you win the helicopter ride......just make sure you don't show up without one of those new adjustable hub bars I have been waiting for........Come on down to So Cal anytime you want, hope to see you soon.



Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH
Aren't you supposed to ship your blades to me so I can fit the new bar? Maybe you can convince Jim to just ship the bar down there and have you balance,track, and check pitch.

Regarding the 767: I counted the circles it made and crossed that with the flight path to get an accurate number. I wasn't there though so I could be wrong. It could have done a loopty loop for all I know :)

Jon
 

Roundwing

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Also, if you decide to dump, do it in a climb, otherwise you risk flying through and igniting your own fuel mist trail. What a sight that would be.
Funny, every time that I had to dump fuel we were in a holding pattern in level flight. Still here to write about it.
 
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Trez

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Funny, every time that I had to dump fuel we were in a holding pattern in level flight. Still here to write about it.
Not to be argumentative but if you're flying a holding pattern you are likely flying 10 - 20 miles legs and not very likely to encounter your own vapor trail in level flight.
But the DC10 and 747 dump rate is way up there - I seem to recall around 6K - 7K per minute. And if your tit is in the wringer, a climb will get rid of even more fuel with climb thrust added to the dump rate.
Every situation is different and, I agree, you're not likely to light-off your trail. But, given the choice, I'll take the climb. I mean, why not. And don't forget that ATC isn't in control of your aircraft. YOU are.......
 
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