Whats the difference, Trendak, Argo, Celier??

ventana7

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You are probably right Rob. I think I have dodged some bullets when I almost considered becoming a rep for Artur and then Celier and then more recently Manufaktura Lotnicza ... Whew.
Over the years I have been called by a number of people who were in the process of doing their due diligence on a partnership with Raphael, I've always been glad when I could steer them away.

I'm glad you did not work with them because you starting Silverlight and bringing your vast aviation background to gyroplanes is one of the best things that's happened for gyros in the US.
Rob
 

Steve_UK

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""What can anyone say about Tercel N640BE? ""


Machine number #208 - registered in the US Jan 2016 - own Mr K, Gyro Experience, Florida, USA - Accident 11.6.18 hard landing and flipped over at Coleville, Wyoming, USA - N640BE cancelled June 2019 ( possible sale in progress to a NC owner at time of cancellation )
 

Philbennett

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Thanks Steve - owner contacted me suggests there was a control failure and the NTSB didn’t inspect the aircraft. Anyone get a view (not physical I mean opinion!) at the time?
 

Steve_UK

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Have you read the NTSB report - says the FAA inspected the wreckage - extract below


According to the pilot, while performing maneuvers south of the private airstrip, he felt no response when he applied left cyclic, and the gyrocopter "was stuck in a moderate right turn." The pilot initiated an emergency descent back to the private airstrip. During the approach, the pilot was unable to regain control of the gyrocopter, and it impacted terrain while sliding to the right. The gyrocopter rolled over to the right and came to rest on its right side.
Post accident examination of the gyrocopter by Federal Aviation Administration inspectors revealed the gyrocopter sustained substantial damage to the main rotor blades, fuselage structure, vertical stabilizers, and horizontal stabilizer. A cyclic push/pull tube was fractured consistent with damage sustained during the impact; no additional anomalies were noted with the flight control systems. The examination revealed no evidence of mechanical malfunctions or failures that would have precluded normal operation.""
 

Philbennett

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Yes I’ve seen that but seems there is a large story. I’m out operating off my phone but check out the YouTube thing I did and the comments section. The owner of N640 flew to Poland he was so concerned!
 

Steve_UK

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Phil - you tell us your friend says the NTSB didn't inspect the wreck and the pilot suspected control failure - the NTSB report refers to that suggestion but also makes clear that the FAA did repeat did examine the wreckage and "A cyclic push/pull tube was fractured consistent with damage sustained during the impact; no additional anomalies were noted with the flight control systems. The examination revealed no evidence of mechanical malfunctions or failures that would have precluded normal operation.""
 

Philbennett

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Hey Steve - I’m just a messenger read what he said. He is adamant that they didn’t inspect.... he was so concerned he flew the part all the way to Poland.. just saying as I’m not familiar with the NTSB process but if it’s the same as AAIB with no injury gyro accidents frankly they couldn’t care less.
 

fara

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Hey Steve - I’m just a messenger read what he said. He is adamant that they didn’t inspect.... he was so concerned he flew the part all the way to Poland.. just saying as I’m not familiar with the NTSB process but if it’s the same as AAIB with no injury gyro accidents frankly they couldn’t care less.
That was Aston Kinsley's gyroplane that he sold to someone in Wyoming or something like that. I did talk to Aston about this but it was a while back. I think the pilot needed more training and time but we all know how that goes sometimes ..
 

Brent Drake

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I believe the Argo 915 in Flordia is the best way to go. The guy who owns it also owns Rotor Tech carbon blades. I have a set that flys very nice.
 

Jtnock

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Phil - you tell us your friend says the NTSB didn't inspect the wreck and the pilot suspected control failure - the NTSB report refers to that suggestion but also makes clear that the FAA did repeat did examine the wreckage and "A cyclic push/pull tube was fractured consistent with damage sustained during the impact; no additional anomalies were noted with the flight control systems. The examination revealed no evidence of mechanical malfunctions or failures that would have precluded normal operation.""
I was the pilot of 640BE here in Wyoming. As Phil said, you can read about it in the comments of his YouTube video. The FAA did come to my house and interview me and go through all the documents. The inspector had no interest in inspecting the wreckage. He was here for maybe 1 hour, most of which was spent looking at documents and interviewing me. I asked him to inspect the wreckage. His reply was "experimental aircraft with no fatalities is an open and closed case". At my insistence, he spent maybe 10 minutes looking at the wreckage. To this day I don't know why he reported it the way he did. Trendak didn't care or want to know. The people in Spanish fork didn't care or want to know. I flew the bracket that I strongly suspect broke to Poland personally. It was a poorly designed weak bracket that held the left/right cyclic control cable to the mast. It was a perfectly clean break. No twisting or bending whatsoever unlike all the other control structures. I have moved on and I have nothing to prove and need nothing from anyone. I now have 700 hours in a carbon cub and will never look back, but something broke and prevented left/right cyclic control as was witnessed by my son flying next to me. Given the response from trendak and associates, I would be extremely cautious about trusting my life to anything with their name on it, but you go ahead and hang your hat on that NTSB report. All the same to me.
 

Jtnock

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That was Aston Kinsley's gyroplane that he sold to someone in Wyoming or something like that. I did talk to Aston about this but it was a while back. I think the pilot needed more training and time but we all know how that goes sometimes ..
See my comment below Fara. Again, believe whatever makes you feel good. All the same to me.
 

DavePA11

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Hi Jtnock - I sold my gyro and bought a Husky. I had some metal fatigue which I found flying the gyro, but the company stood behind their products and got replacement beefier parts. How do you like your Carbon Cub? That would be my choice, but outside my price range. Ended up buying a Husky for the fuel range out here in Colorado and speed. Everything is very far apart out here. Carbon Cub must be a blast to fly!
 

Jtnock

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Hi Jtnock - I sold my gyro and bought a Husky. I had some metal fatigue which I found flying the gyro, but the company stood behind their products and got replacement beefier parts. How do you like your Carbon Cub? That would be my choice, but outside my price range. Ended up buying a Husky for the fuel range out here in Colorado and speed. Everything is very far apart out here. Carbon Cub must be a blast to fly!
The cub is
Hi Jtnock - I sold my gyro and bought a Husky. I had some metal fatigue which I found flying the gyro, but the company stood behind their products and got replacement beefier parts. How do you like your Carbon Cub? That would be my choice, but outside my price range. Ended up buying a Husky for the fuel range out here in Colorado and speed. Everything is very far apart out here. Carbon Cub must be a blast to fly!
The cub is a blast to fly. Nearly 700 hours in the last 2 years. Knowing what I do about gyros and all the vibration, I would be extremely nervous about attempting that in one of those. Looks to me like it's matter of when, not if something will fail. In Poland I did a test flight with Mr. Dernbach. Extremely experienced and famous pilot over there.

I suspect he experienced a control failure too. Also visited with Chris Lord on the phone several times. Another control failure. This is inexcusable and the companies building them have a don't give a damn attitude.

Buy a cub or a husky. They'll do everything a gyro will and much more with reputable companies to back them up.
 

fara

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The cub is
The cub is a blast to fly. Nearly 700 hours in the last 2 years. Knowing what I do about gyros and all the vibration, I would be extremely nervous about attempting that in one of those. Looks to me like it's matter of when, not if something will fail. In Poland I did a test flight with Mr. Dernbach. Extremely experienced and famous pilot over there.

I suspect he experienced a control failure too. Also visited with Chris Lord on the phone several times. Another control failure. This is inexcusable and the companies building them have a don't give a damn attitude.

Buy a cub or a husky. They'll do everything a gyro will and much more with reputable companies to back them up.

Your point isn't valid in general. You can also find gyroplanes with 2000+ hours flying and a lot of them.
Trendak or any of Xenon derivatives I don't know about their longevity. Your point is that when Trendak went to push-pull cable system (which was not always the case before, it's something they did at a certain point and now as I know they have changed back away from push pull cables), a bracket broke on your machine making you lose control authority.
Its difficult to judge that statement without a lab looking at the broken bracket but if the bracket is that critical, it should be accessible to see in pre-flight. Your gyro did not have enough time to cause that much fatigue due to vibration unless your vibration levels were way above normal. It was either then a badly designed bracket or a huge manufacturing defect.
Chris Lord's accident was due to a nut falling off the cyclic stick to push pull control cable connection because it was never tightened to begin with during the build. That has nothing to do with the manufacturer or the design. Though I dislike the push-pull cable design pattern and prefer control rods and a bellcrank. Try loosening a nut and leaving it unsecured in your Husky and see what happens within next 100 hours. (Obviously don't actually do that but just making a point).

I agree with you about one thing. The Xenon derivatives have had serious support gaps and issues. Their name to fame is big large cabin which suits American SUV type sensibilities. I have met Trendak and some others behind these machines and I decided not to represent them here going all the way back to 2012. That however doesn't say anything about gyroplanes in general.
 
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Jtnock

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Your point isn't valid in general. You can also find gyroplanes with 2000+ hours flying and a lot of them.
Trendak or any of Xenon derivatives I don't know about their longevity. Your point is that when Trendak went to push-pull cable system (which was not always the case before, it's something they did at a certain point and now as I know they have changed back away from push pull cables), a bracket broke on your machine making you lose control authority.
Its difficult to judge that statement without a lab looking at the broken bracket but if the bracket is that critical, it should be accessible to see in pre-flight. Your gyro did not have enough time to cause that much fatigue due to vibration unless your vibration levels were way above normal. It was either then a badly designed bracket or a huge manufacturing defect.
Chris Lord's accident was due to a nut falling off the cyclic stick to push pull control cable connection because it was never tightened to begin with during the build. That has nothing to do with the manufacturer or the design. Though I dislike the push-pull cable design pattern and prefer control rods and a bellcrank. Try loosening a nut and leaving it unsecured in your Husky and see what happens within next 100 hours. (Obviously don't actually do that but just making a point).

I agree with you about one thing. The Xenon derivatives have had serious support gaps and issues. Their name to fame is big large cabin which suits American SUV type sensibilities. I have met Trendak and some others behind these machines and I decided not to represent them here going all the way back to 2012. That however doesn't say anything about gyroplanes in general.
Fair enough Fara. I shouldn't have lumped all gyros into one basket. The Poland gyro disaster is an ongoing joke and I cringe every time I see another one make it's way to the US. These guys buying any form of the Tercel/Xenon/AG915/Argo aero are completely on their own and will be acting as unpaid test pilots while Alvaro and company cheer them on from Poland.

I also agree that the bracket that I suspect broke needed further inspection, which was why I hand delivered it to Artur. I assumed they would be as interested as I was to find out what happened. I assume you would absolutely want to know if there was potentially a defective/under designed part on your AR-1. In fact, I suspect you would personally have wanted to inspect the machine in a control failure caused crash. Not only do these clowns building these Xenon derivatives not care, they have zero resources to back them or their machine up. They operate entirely hand to mouth out of their garage. This is where I am partly to blame. I wanted a gyro so badly and was so inexperienced that I overlooked all the nonsense and jumped in anyway. Luckily I lived through it, but I feel a certain obligation to warn others.

I saw some of your machines at sun n fun a couple of years ago and met you there. I believe you have a much better business stucture and support system and that you do care about building a machine people can trust their lives to. Didn't mean to lump you in with the Xenon mess.
 

fara

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Fair enough Fara. I shouldn't have lumped all gyros into one basket. The Poland gyro disaster is an ongoing joke and I cringe every time I see another one make it's way to the US. These guys buying any form of the Tercel/Xenon/AG915/Argo aero are completely on their own and will be acting as unpaid test pilots while Alvaro and company cheer them on from Poland.

I also agree that the bracket that I suspect broke needed further inspection, which was why I hand delivered it to Artur. I assumed they would be as interested as I was to find out what happened. I assume you would absolutely want to know if there was potentially a defective/under designed part on your AR-1. In fact, I suspect you would personally have wanted to inspect the machine in a control failure caused crash. Not only do these clowns building these Xenon derivatives not care, they have zero resources to back them or their machine up. They operate entirely hand to mouth out of their garage. This is where I am partly to blame. I wanted a gyro so badly and was so inexperienced that I overlooked all the nonsense and jumped in anyway. Luckily I lived through it, but I feel a certain obligation to warn others.

I saw some of your machines at sun n fun a couple of years ago and met you there. I believe you have a much better business stucture and support system and that you do care about building a machine people can trust their lives to. Didn't mean to lump you in with the Xenon mess.
The market size is much smaller for gyroplanes. We simply do not release a machine or kit till its structurally and functionally sound. If it makes it late so be it. In aircraft safety comes before other things. COS or Continued Operational Safety system is important and needs to be kept up with. If Trendek did not want to get a lab inspect the bracket that broke to make sure it was nothing more than impact damage, I am surprised and disappointed.
 
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