Whats the difference, Trendak, Argo, Celier??

Philbennett

Junior Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
213
Location
London
A follow up on this. I wonder if anyone has information on how this situation occurs?

The following is asked as a question not a statement....

As I understand it the original model is the Xenon made by ABS Aerolight owned by Mr Celier.

Then a specific company is formed Celier aviation and production moves to Poland. That ends in 2012 and then I'm confused because there now seems a lot of entities making what to me look the same thing?

So I have AAT and the Tercel, Celier with the Xenon and in the USA Air Gyro who suggest they bringing in kits from the manufacturer who is the supplier for the other 2? I'm confused. If what I'm assuming is anywhere near accurate how did Celier loose his IP from the time it was all made by Aerolight??
 

WaspAir

Supreme Allied Gyro CFI
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
4,611
Location
Colorado front range
Aircraft
Bell 47G-3B-1 / A&S 18A / Phoebus C, etc.
Total Flight Time
stopped caring at 1000
Not much IP to be claimed here. Old ideas, no patents, no trade secrets, easy to copy...
 

WaspAir

Supreme Allied Gyro CFI
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
4,611
Location
Colorado front range
Aircraft
Bell 47G-3B-1 / A&S 18A / Phoebus C, etc.
Total Flight Time
stopped caring at 1000
Maybe nobody wants to invest in new tooling, molds, etc.
 

Greg Vos

Active Member
Joined
May 26, 2019
Messages
133
Location
Cape Town
Aircraft
R44/22 H269/300 MD 500 Magni (all); Xenon RST; DTA; ELA; MTO
Total Flight Time
2480 odd (1300 gyro hours & counting)
RC - He is still involved ....uses the Very dubious crowd called Fly Argo who seem to have a nice showroom in Poland.....with no confirmed deliveries of the Fly Argo units anywhere....I know of client who payed over 50% so far in 2018 and are still waiting for delivery.

Trendak is 👍they supply the kits to air gyro in the USA branded AG 915, IMO these side by side units are business for serious aerial work platforms and fly very nicely ....just not the fastest gyro, the AG 915 claims a 1500ft/m climb at sea level
 

DavePA11

Active Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2015
Messages
458
Location
Northborough
Greg - Thanks for sharing so this doesn’t happen to other potential gyro buyers. Does he have any way to get the money back from Fly Argo?
 

Greg Vos

Active Member
Joined
May 26, 2019
Messages
133
Location
Cape Town
Aircraft
R44/22 H269/300 MD 500 Magni (all); Xenon RST; DTA; ELA; MTO
Total Flight Time
2480 odd (1300 gyro hours & counting)
O
Greg - Thanks for sharing so this doesn’t happen to other potential gyro buyers. Does he have any way to get the money back from Fly Argo?
its a bit of salad, the client in SA who purchased the Fly Argo Was unaware of the history and the rather colorful reputation Cillier has developed over the years ( captain, colonel, chief designer, superior test pilot As he calls himself)
my client was dealing with Fly Argo and man by the name of Syed Zoheb, unfortunately I had to have dealings with him and he was trying to convince me that Fly Argo was a totally new machine and that him as title of commercial director at Fly Argo can assure me they have nothing to do with Rafial Cilliers?( for the record at Fly Argo everyone is a director 😳)

long story short Syed Zoheb eventually now admits its a xenon 4 and that they are in some ways still involved with captain, colonel, chief designer test pilot ..he can also only tell me about great distribution agreements he has concluded ...but fails to address my concerns with the engine warranty and what it is they do to the 912 UL that gives it 144 Hp and then they CLAIM to still give it full warranty to 2000 hours! But cannot explain how a client ( read end user) will enjoy a warranty claim if his unit suffers?

sorry for long winded story but I’m getting there, prospective Byers need some history ...so the client in SA formally contacts the then MD at Fly Argo Mr Bobrophsky ( not sure of spelling, he has since lowered his title and is no longer MD at Fky Argo..these things make me see amber lights) and now asks for details of how they would enjoy or service a client if they on sell this Fly Argo to there client base? With them now getting cold feet when they discuss with me the history of RC and his associates.
In short they were not satisfied with the run around they received from Fly Argo & Syed Zoheb, and decided to discontinue the relationship with FA, they have still to get back there 50% deposit .....

Syed Zoheb I believe is moving on, and despite my asking him for customers who have in fact received a Fly Argo? all this twat can do is direct me to his face book page or Instagram, where all we see is the one red aircraft flying but no actual customer hand overs or testimonials .... but load of pics of himself with prospect distributors, he even went in to tell me they have them flying in the UK? Wtf

My dealings with Trendak and his associates in the USA ( airgyro) Alvaro and co has been a very enjoyable experience and I will just add that there is nothing really wrong with the xenon or the RST they are IMO a really great gyro providing IMO the best view with the most spacious cabin of all the gyroplanes I have flown, ( not the fastest)

so prospective Fly Argo clients just ask a few questions before parting with your cash, How many units have Fly Argo delivered? And get customer and country details! How will you get compensated for a engine warranty claim, and how many hours have they accumulated with a new Fly Argo machine? Willing to bet Syed Zoheb will refer you to hours flown in the older generation Xenon?

of no value but just for interest sake I have built 3 Xenons, I have accumulated over 600 hours as PIC in xenon, Zen1 and will add when you know how to fly a xenon it’s a very rewarding and comfortable gyroplane
 

Greg Vos

Active Member
Joined
May 26, 2019
Messages
133
Location
Cape Town
Aircraft
R44/22 H269/300 MD 500 Magni (all); Xenon RST; DTA; ELA; MTO
Total Flight Time
2480 odd (1300 gyro hours & counting)
Sorry it’s a bad copy but here is captain, colonel, chief designer, test pilot explaining that Fly Argo are the only ones to built his magic machine, yet faced with this the twat Syed Zoheb still tells me they have nothing to do with him....he has since retracted that claim
 

Attachments

Resasi

Gold Supporter
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
7,613
Location
London/ Kilifi Kenya
Aircraft
Gyrs, RAF 2000/Mgni/Bnsn/Hrnet/Mrlin/Crckt/MT-03/Lyzlle AV18-A/Prdtor. Pax ArrowCopter
Total Flight Time
100+ gyro, 16,000+ other
This is a sad story. Met Celier briefly at one Bensen Days a while ago, and now seems he is a real rogue.

A friend of mine Tony Melody was at one time going to work with them/Celier in trying to get it into the UK. It came to nothing and by the sounds of things he’s lucky he did not get involved.
 

fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
3,341
Location
Tampa, FL
Aircraft
AR-1
Total Flight Time
3600+ .. New to gyroplanes
Guys:
I don't know about all the names thrown about in this thread but Fly Argo is now in the US, in Sebastian, FL to be more exact. I think one or two Fly Argo gyroplanes are headed there. Someone I know have taken their distributorship. I believe there is a Polish gentleman named Krzysztof Wrinowski (Chris) who is the manager/owner of Fly Argo who I think is partnered with Celier. According to information I know all the AirGyro AG-915 so far have also been built by them (Fly Argo). As usual anything to do with Xenon or its new named iterations is confusing due to its legacy and chiefs involved in it. But you can get a Fly Argo (Xenon 4) in the US. AirGyro or AG-915 (under Alvaro) has now moved to get parts from another older supplier of Xenon. Alvaro is in Poland and no longer in Florida. AirGyro has no association any longer with Trendak. That whole relationship fell apart and they are doing their own thing as AG-915. This is all I know and can confirm as facts.
Fly safe and enjoy.
 
Last edited:

Greg Vos

Active Member
Joined
May 26, 2019
Messages
133
Location
Cape Town
Aircraft
R44/22 H269/300 MD 500 Magni (all); Xenon RST; DTA; ELA; MTO
Total Flight Time
2480 odd (1300 gyro hours & counting)
Guys:
I don't know about all the names thrown about in this thread but Fly Argo is now in the US, in Sebastian, FL to be more exact. I think one or two Fly Argo gyroplanes are headed there. Someone I know have taken their distributorship. I believe there is a Polish gentleman named Krzysztof Wrinowski (Chris) who is the manager/owner of Fly Argo who I think is partnered with Celier. According to information I know all the AirGyro AG-915 so far have also been built by them (Fly Argo). As usual anything to do with Xenon or its new named iterations is confusing due to its legacy and chiefs involved in it. But you can get a Fly Argo (Xenon 4) in the US. AirGyro or AG-915 (under Alvaro) has now moved to get parts from another older supplier of Xenon. Alvaro is in Poland and no longer in Florida. AirGyro has no association any longer with Trendak. That whole relationship fell apart and they are doing their own thing as AG-915. This is all I know and can confirm as facts.
Fly safe and enjoy.
Well now I’m even more confused 😳😳I received a mail from Alvaro last week and it was in connection with 915 TBO he was still in Spanish fork? Airgyro ...see a screenshot where he refers to the Taurus gyro ...is that not a Trendak machine?
It would be helpful if Krzysztof came on and explained?
Now last week he was in Spanish fork how did he get to Poland with the Covid lockdown restrictions?
That said has anyone seen a fly Argo .... In the real not a computer generated image? ...just asking and the last I heard the airgyro 915 kit was supplied by Trendak? All very confusing...

so the plot just gets more popcorn heavy🙂
 

Attachments

Last edited:

Greg Vos

Active Member
Joined
May 26, 2019
Messages
133
Location
Cape Town
Aircraft
R44/22 H269/300 MD 500 Magni (all); Xenon RST; DTA; ELA; MTO
Total Flight Time
2480 odd (1300 gyro hours & counting)
Guys:
I don't know about all the names thrown about in this thread but Fly Argo is now in the US, in Sebastian, FL to be more exact. I think one or two Fly Argo gyroplanes are headed there. Someone I know have taken their distributorship. I believe there is a Polish gentleman named Krzysztof Wrinowski (Chris) who is the manager/owner of Fly Argo who I think is partnered with Celier. According to information I know all the AirGyro AG-915 so far have also been built by them (Fly Argo). As usual anything to do with Xenon or its new named iterations is confusing due to its legacy and chiefs involved in it. But you can get a Fly Argo (Xenon 4) in the US. AirGyro or AG-915 (under Alvaro) has now moved to get parts from another older supplier of Xenon. Alvaro is in Poland and no longer in Florida. AirGyro has no association any longer with Trendak. That whole relationship fell apart and they are doing their own thing as AG-915. This is all I know and can confirm as facts.
Fly safe and enjoy.
Fara referring to the email screenshot I posted that I received from Alvaro on the 15th how does this tie in with what you say “quote.
This is all I know and can confirm as facts unquote”
Do you think he went to the opposition and simply forgot to amend his contact details 😈

the only thing that is FACT is that anything to do with Cillier is very murky .....IMO ....but still a great gyro to pilot 😉 I have noticed on Instagram that Alvaro does seem to indorse Argo regularly
 

fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
3,341
Location
Tampa, FL
Aircraft
AR-1
Total Flight Time
3600+ .. New to gyroplanes
Well now I’m even more confused 😳😳I received a mail from Alvaro last week and it was in connection with 915 TBO he was still in Spanish fork? Airgyro ...see a screenshot where he refers to the Taurus gyro ...is that not a Trendak machine?
It would be helpful if Krzysztof came on and explained?
Now last week he was in Spanish fork how did he get to Poland with the Covid lockdown restrictions?
That said has anyone seen a fly Argo .... In the real not a computer generated image? ...just asking and the last I heard the airgyro 915 kit was supplied by Trendak? All very confusing...

so the plot just gets more popcorn heavy🙂
Alvaro is in Poland. Has been in Poland for months. Not in the USA. He was in Florida but had to go back to Poland.

AG915 is definitely not from Trendak. AG915 is AirGyro's branding on the version of Xenon (Argo or MBL). They buy the kit from these suppliers to make their AG915. The kits are made in Poland regardless of the supplier. Trendak as I understand it does not use 915 because he is given large grants from EU or Polish government to develop and sell the other engine (RST or whatever) every year. He cannot then put Rotax 915 and not show sales of RST. He would lose the grants. At least that is how it was explained to me. I don't know. US government gives me a big fat $0 grant ever. They are always taking money from not giving to me so I can't even imagine a government grant to a business to develop and sell something. Giving grants to businesses like this is very much a European thing.

I don't know about any plot. I just know Alvaro is not with Trendak any more. He went to work with AirGyro in Utah, came up with idea for AG915 using other suppliers not Trendak because Trendak would not use 915 engine. Moved to Florida and then had to move back to Poland and that is where he has been. All his videos in the last few months state he is in Poland. He was getting kits for AG915 using Fly Argo and then recently may have switched to getting parts from MBL, an older Xenon supplier with older moulds. Now however, Fly Argo has their own dealer/importer for their 915 gyro also in Florida. He has a website, a Facebook page and training center. These are no secrets because they are right on the web. At least I didn't think.
 
Last edited:

Greg Vos

Active Member
Joined
May 26, 2019
Messages
133
Location
Cape Town
Aircraft
R44/22 H269/300 MD 500 Magni (all); Xenon RST; DTA; ELA; MTO
Total Flight Time
2480 odd (1300 gyro hours & counting)
Alvaro is in Poland. Has been in Poland for months. Not in the USA. He was in Florida but had to go back to Poland.

AG915 is definitely not from Trendak. AG915 is AirGyro's branding on the version of Xenon (Argo or MBL). They buy the kit from these suppliers to make their AG915. The kits are made in Poland regardless of the supplier. Trendak as I understand it does not use 915 because he is given large grants from EU or Polish government to develop and sell the other engine (RST or whatever) every year. He cannot then put Rotax 915 and not show sales of RST. He would lose the grants. At least that is how it was explained to me. I don't know. US government gives me a big fat $0 grant ever. They are always taking money from not giving to me so I can't even imagine a government grant to a business to develop and sell something. Giving grants to businesses like this is very much a European thing.

I don't know about any plot. I just know Alvaro is not with Trendak any more. He went to work with AirGyro in Utah, came up with idea for AG915 using other suppliers not Trendak because Trendak would not use 915 engine. Moved to Florida and then had to move back to Poland and that is where he has been. All his videos in the last few months state he is in Poland. He was getting kits for AG915 using Fly Argo and then recently may have switched to getting parts from MBL, an older Xenon supplier with older moulds. Now however, Fly Argo has their own dealer/importer for their 915 gyro also in Florida. He has a website, a Facebook page and training center. These are no secrets because they are right on the web. At least I didn't think.
Thanks for this detailed info it’s god to know because Fly Argo who now call themselves Argo Helicopters I think. in the last had a very dodgy past with Syed who could not ever tell the truth.

i will drop A mail to Alvaro and ask and will post his comments
 

fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
3,341
Location
Tampa, FL
Aircraft
AR-1
Total Flight Time
3600+ .. New to gyroplanes
Thanks for this detailed info it’s god to know because Fly Argo who now call themselves Argo Helicopters I think. in the last had a very dodgy past with Syed who could not ever tell the truth.

i will drop A mail to Alvaro and ask and will post his comments
I am sure Alvaro posts on social media as in on YpuTube and Facebook. So does Chris from Fly Argo and his new US importer. Anyone can find those posts. Chris supposedly is owner or part owner of Fly Argo, also a helicopter training school business as well as composite rotor company that makes composite rotors for Gyroplanes as used on AG915 as well as composite rotors for R22 and R44. This rotor company was established when GyroTech’s main technical guy left and partnered with Chris to make this new rotor company. That company also posts on FB.
 

Philbennett

Junior Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
213
Location
London
its a total mess trying to pick through it all. I even have a name called Manufactura Lotnicaa and the Argon!

Made this - think it covers things.

 
Last edited:
Top