Whats the difference, Trendak, Argo, Celier??

Steve_UK

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I'm not a pilot but have been lucky enough to fly in Mi-24 Hind, Mi-2, Mi-17, Lynx HAS3, Gliders, GA
Key points to note

ABS original manufactures, in France - Hirth engine - maybe 15 kits sold

CA formed and production moved to Jaktorow, Poland - Xenon 2 with Rotax engine sells well, up to approx ship #150

CA dissolve circa 2011/2012 - partners becomes AAT ( Aviation Artur Trendak ) and "new CA" - AAT remains at Jaktorow with tooling and staff and continues building from approx ship #150 onwards initially as Zen1 and later refined Tercel - over 100 built to date by AAT, still active today with current production now at approx ship #275

"New CA" sets up new production line but moves severla times - ends up in Piotrokow Trybunal, Poland taking parts from MBL - builds three Xenon 2 and then approx twenty examples of refined Xenon IV - "New CA" moves on to Malta, no production known.

Fly Argo offers CA Xenon IV product and now appears to offer to build new Xenon IVs as Argo 915 - no deliveries known

Air Gyro USA originally a dealer for AAT ( imported several Tercels into USA ) now offers AG915 and confirms this will be parts supplied by MBL for kit building in US with a Rotax 915 - as yet no AG915 kits in USA, three kits said to be en route - marketing shows a modified Celier built Xenon IV SP-XNON ( built 2016 ) now fitted with a 915 flying in Poland being used to promote AG915.



That's my understanding but corrections, updates welcom, good luck making your choice
 

Vance

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Thank you Steve!!!

I always learn a lot when I spend time with the information you have collected and collated.

It is so nice to learn from reality instead reading of fantasy and fear mongering.
 

ventana7

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Steve wrote a pretty good history.

Of the ABS (Xenon gen 1) machines only 1 was in the US and it is not still flying. Not sure about the others sold in France but the Hirth engine had many failures.

I was the initial US importer for the second generation Xenons made in the AAT factory in Poland in 2007-2008. The 10 gyros I imported are registered E-LSA and the only gyros registered that way. Others were later brought in as Experimental and these are mostly Generation 3 Zen/Tercels. After the split between Artur Trendak and Raphael Celier CA moved around 3-4 times but each time his partners kicked him out as Artur Trendak had. Raphael Celier ripped off people in about 5 different countries and never provided support for most of stuff he sold. Steer clear of him

AAT has not had very consistent US representation. I was the first US rep and sold 10 gyros in less than a year, followed by Mike Bantum for 3-4 years even though he only sold 1-2 gyros. Chris Lord repped both AAT and Celier for a time. The AAT factory is good but it would be far better if you could work with a US rep for parts and service etc.

I don't know anything about the Argo.

Rob Dubin
www.gyroamerica.com
 

NJpilot

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Rob's summary is as I understand it as well. Like Rod, the whole Argo Aero is new to me.

It looks like Argo Aero is the new Celier Aviation per the Argo Aero website that states:

"Celier Aviation Ltd. that change into ARGO Aero Sp z o.o

Al. Katowicka, 11 05-830 Wolica/Warsaw, Poland

-------------------------------------------------------

VAT : 1231208563 | Regon: 142314725 KRS:0000355281

District Court for the Capital City of Warsaw, XIV Business Division"

I thought Celier Aviation was moving to Malta. Is Raphael Celier still involved with the Xenon?

John
 

NJpilot

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Putting aside the politics between these two companies can anybody comment on any flight characteristic differences between the Xenon 4 and the Tercel?
 

All_In

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This is all hearsay but from the owner's mouth. I would not personally have any dealings with Celler he has ripped off at least 5 PRA members, had at least 3 new machines have forced landings 2 because of wires shorting out through the cabin to the engine compartment and did not warranty it. 1 had an engine out. The customer called and asked where to have it repaired. Celler told him to take the head off and send him a picture. He did and then Celler told him that Celler could not repair it for him under warranty because HE TOOK THE HEAD OFF as instructed by Celler.


Do a search on Celler on this forum and you will still find many complaints.

Here is one of the first dealer's histories working with them.

"
Of the ABS (Xenon gen 1) machines only 1 was in the US and it is not still flying. Not sure about the others sold in France but the Hirth engine had many failures.

I was the initial US importer for the second generation Xenons made in the AAT factory in Poland in 2007-2008. The 10 gyros I imported are registered E-LSA and the only gyros registered that way. Others were later brought in as Experimental and these are mostly Generation 3 Zen/Tercels. After the split between Artur Trendak and Raphael Celier CA moved around 3-4 times but each time his partners kicked him out as Artur Trendak had. Raphael Celier ripped off people in about 5 different countries and never provided support for most of stuff he sold. Steer clear of him

AAT has not had very consistent US representation. I was the first US rep and sold 10 gyros in less than a year, followed by Mike Bantum for 3-4 years even though he only sold 1-2 gyros. Chris Lord repped both AAT and Celier for a time. The AAT factory is good but it would be far better if you could work with a US rep for parts and service etc.

I don't know anything about the Argo.

Rob Dubin
www.gyroamerica.com
Here is a link to above to learn more....
 

Greg Vos

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Fly Argo have secured a client in SA, a well respected Cessna and beach agent who is considering adding gyro to their product offering.
I was approached to take care of flight training and to assist in drawing up a robust marketing plan to bring the gyro into the commercial segment that is under traded here.

In dealing with FA now for a few months they have informed me that they have the full manufacturing rights to the CA range as well as the Sanke light helicopter, I will be going to Poland to flight test the aircraft before it comes out here, currently we are frustrated getting it designated within our CAA
Here are pics of the unit that has been ordered by Absolute Aviation
 

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All_In

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Fly Argo have secured a client in SA, a well respected Cessna and beach agent who is considering adding gyro to their product offering.
I was approached to take care of flight training and to assist in drawing up a robust marketing plan to bring the gyro into the commercial segment that is under traded here.

In dealing with FA now for a few months they have informed me that they have the full manufacturing rights to the CA range as well as the Sanke light helicopter, I will be going to Poland to flight test the aircraft before it comes out here, currently we are frustrated getting it designated within our CAA
Here are pics of the unit that has been ordered by Absolute Aviation
Which partner are you contracting with? Arthur or Celler?
 

Greg Vos

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Which partner are you contracting with? Arthur or Celler?
Fly Argo have purchased the rights to the CA blueprints and plans they have nothing to do with the old regime from what I understand they are a new player hoping to make a success
 

All_In

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Fly Argo have purchased the rights to the CA blueprints and plans they have nothing to do with the old regime from what I understand they are a new player hoping to make a success
Thank you, that is encouraging news. Let's hope their warranty and after sale support is much better than the other two companies.
 

Greg Vos

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Thank you, that is encouraging news. Let's hope their warranty and after sale support is much better than the other two companies.
Well it seems I may have spoken a bit soon?

Fly Argo have failed to answer five or so questions I have put to them? I have just heard from Patryk at Trendak that they have also left a customer who is suffering from a warranty claim high and dry....the manager I have been communicating with has been less than transparent.

Interesting thread right here ...


I will add the details as soon as I have a chance but this thread I think says it all?
 

All_In

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Well it seems I may have spoken a bit soon?

Fly Argo have failed to answer five or so questions I have put to them? I have just heard from Patryk at Trendak that they have also left a customer who is suffering from a warranty claim high and dry....the manager I have been communicating with has been less than transparent.

Interesting thread right here ...


I will add the details as soon as I have a chance but this thread I think says it all?
This is the same disturbing trend. Personally, I would not buy from them until I talked to several satisfied customers in the USA.

Thank you for warning our community. We have been hurt by all of them.
 

Greg Vos

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This is the same disturbing trend. Personally, I would not buy from them until I talked to several satisfied customers in the USA.

Thank you for warning our community. We have been hurt by all of them.
well they tell me they have 5 units flying in the USA, with more orders looming for Mexico?????but when I ask for customer contact details....

I have been in talks with them since November last year
when asked about happy clients they offer no concrete or tangible contacts, as for the agency in SA I think after meeting with me and my explaining the challenge they will face with the legacy of CA they are just trying to get out of the agency agreement.

So please guys if any of you are flying a FLY ARGO or have one I would really like to hear from you as Im in weekly talks with the poor client in SA who has placed an order for one.

The problem is that the client in SA was hoping to attract commercial clients ( law enforcement, Police, security LIDAR and so on) this will not be possible without BCAR-T certification as the FLY ARGO will not be able to get night VFR...when I try and tell this to Syed from FA he becomes quite aggressive with me telling me has much more exp then me.....what do I know???

Trying to tell him I train people to fly these things and his client will take direction from people like myself seems to elude him!
So it seems to me its a case of smoke and Mirrors.

If any member of this forum wants to see the dribble he sent me in response to my questions I will gladly email it....to save embarrassment I will not attach it.

So my advise is until they become transparent or honest stay away!
 

All_In

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They look heavy for a police mission, less fuel, to me.
 

ventana7

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well they tell me they have 5 units flying in the USA, with more orders looming for Mexico?????but when I ask for customer contact details....

I have been in talks with them since November last year
when asked about happy clients they offer no concrete or tangible contacts, as for the agency in SA I think after meeting with me and my explaining the challenge they will face with the legacy of CA they are just trying to get out of the agency agreement.

So please guys if any of you are flying a FLY ARGO or have one I would really like to hear from you as Im in weekly talks with the poor client in SA who has placed an order for one.

The problem is that the client in SA was hoping to attract commercial clients ( law enforcement, Police, security LIDAR and so on) this will not be possible without BCAR-T certification as the FLY ARGO will not be able to get night VFR...when I try and tell this to Syed from FA he becomes quite aggressive with me telling me has much more exp then me.....what do I know???

Trying to tell him I train people to fly these things and his client will take direction from people like myself seems to elude him!
So it seems to me its a case of smoke and Mirrors.

If any member of this forum wants to see the dribble he sent me in response to my questions I will gladly email it....to save embarrassment I will not attach it.

So my advise is until they become transparent or honest stay away!
Greg,
Not sure if you have flown the Xenon or any of its derivatives but they are sweet flying machines. side by side is easier for instruction and the really wide wheelbase makes it much easier for low time pilots on both takeoff and especially landing. Virtually eliminating the landing accidents Autogyro have experienced.
I also greatly enjoy the light stick force as compared to all the Magni and Autogyros I’ve flown. (BTW I had a fantastic flight around CapeTown a few years ago with Jean Tresfon and my wife following with David Lear).

There is nothing proprietary owned by Raphael or Artur. It may be a few months premature but it sounds like Alvaro whom I believe you know will soon be marketing at least kits of the Trendak version.

Would that suit your need?

Rob Dubin
Xenon owner and initial US distributor.
 

Greg Vos

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Greg,
Not sure if you have flown the Xenon or any of its derivatives but they are sweet flying machines. side by side is easier for instruction and the really wide wheelbase makes it much easier for low time pilots on both takeoff and especially landing. Virtually eliminating the landing accidents Autogyro have experienced.
I also greatly enjoy the light stick force as compared to all the Magni and Autogyros I’ve flown. (BTW I had a fantastic flight around CapeTown a few years ago with Jean Tresfon and my wife following with David Lear).

There is nothing proprietary owned by Raphael or Artur. It may be a few months premature but it sounds like Alvaro whom I believe you know will soon be marketing at least kits of the Trendak version.

Would that suit your need?

Rob Dubin
Xenon owner and initial US distributor.
I have over 300 hours in Xenon, I love, it is very R44 in feel when in fwd flight I love the spacious cabin ( instructor rated on all Xenon/zen1)
Having flown and being rated on many gyro I agree with the light feel of the stick compared with Magni.
I have a great relationship with Artur and Trendak I think your getting confused with who Fly Argo is?

In the post above I link to a thread I placed on the smoke and mirrors we experience from the new CA manufacturers. Please read it. Fly Argo is it worth 2.2 million?

I built a Xenon for a student and added a helicopter type overhead panel and removed the master fuel pump from the main on/off sw that is so dangerous with Xenon? How they have the main fuel pump connected to master on is IMO a stupid mistake? ( if you have in flight fire you can't put the master fuel pump off? If you do then you lose all electrical inc radio.....certainly not well thought out)
I don't like the older marine breakers they still supply? So when I built a panel I built a serious panel that was commented on by many it would be more at home in a jet ranger 😁 All up it weighed the same as I built a bespoke binnacle and removed the OEM ugly fiberglass panel enclosure
I built him a bespoke panel adding steam to the simple MGL supplied having suffered a full in flight failure of the MGL.
It's a pity we can't get a zen or Xenon in SA as a kit as all the earlier examples I have flown and worked on the electrical wiering and workmanship is very sub standard.

I think the Xenon is one of the nicest gyroplanes I have flown, ....and also the slowest, but for instructor and student it's great or for a pilot and a observer for pipe line or traffic inspection it's the best for visibility.

If you ever need an instructor or a pair of hands for a few weeks please look me up.
Or look me up on LinkedIn you will see I'm handy with the tools

Regards
 

ventana7

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I put a standard aviation circuit breaker on my console so I can cut off the fuel without turning off anything else. Your panel improvements sound great.

Do you know Alvaro Tovar from Airgyro ? He was in Utah but just moved to Florida. He is getting all the same parts from Artur’s suppliers in Poland and offering Tercel kits with a 915is. Perhaps he can ship them to SA as well as the US. http://www.airgyro.com/page-5/

My home airport is at 2500 meters in Colorado and I’ve modified my RST with a vernier controllable wastegate and larger pistons for 140hp.

The area around CapeTown is certainly beautiful flying.

Rob Dubin
 

Greg Vos

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I sent some pics of my panel if anyone wants to see it please can you upload ? I tried but it failed but went to your email.
 
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