What Happened To Cause This

looks like he was on a down wind turn and let his airspeed drop too low thus stall spin crash
 
From my perspective it looks like he didnt have enough airspeed to handle the bank angle that he had established and as a result of that he stalled and spun in--
 
That is the ever so famous.... " Downwind turn " at it's best. Sounded like alot of wind blowing, the plane takes off into the wind, turns downwind and the GROUND speed increases, the pilot slows the plane down thinking his airspeed has increased ( when it hasn't, just his ground speed due to the tailwind ) and the plane stalled. He controls were probably crossed somewhat ( right rudder, left aileron ) and the slip ball out of the center at time of stall and the plane enters a spin. At that low of a altitude there is nothing to he could do to recover.

In this same event a gyro would have just slowly lost altitude until the pilot increased power or airspeed. This probably killed the planes passengers, but would not likely hurt the gyroplanes passengers at all. This kind of accident is what makes Gyros supposedly safer than airplanes.
 
It looked like it happend to fast to be a stall....perhaps the aileron control broke and put him in a spin. either way he was headed for trouble getting downwind like that and AS dropping off.
 
My best gyro-flying buddy died in a FW ultralight in just that way. Chilling.
 
Strange takeoff. Usually I see tail-draggers lift the tail early in the takeoff
roll. He seemed to keep it very low. That would surely give a low-speed takeoff.
He did level slightly to gain speed, but only very briefly.
There was a significant wind. You can see the windsock to the left side.
His crosswind turn was abrupt and steep, and his turn onto the downwind
leg seemed similar, although the video quality is poor.
Wolfgang Langewiesche in 'Stick and rudder' says jerky handling at slow
speed can cause a tip-stall, which is what that looked like.
I've seen it lots of times in RC models, and its unbelievable how quick it
happens.
That video should be shown to every fixed-wing pilot.
 
to low to slow, should have turned into the wind after take off, also looks like it just about got into a flat spin just before the inboard wing stalled and spun him in. watch as he/she,, try's to catch it with opp. stick.. too late. look at the wind sock,,, looks to be at least a 8 to 10 mph wind almost steady. look close at the planes wings and block out the rest of the pict. i think you will see the same thing i am. try it ... hope he made it with min. inj.
 
Screw-In

It looked like it happend to fast to be a stall.

I beg to differ. If you noticed the Wind Sock in the video, it looked like it was on Viagra. As Ron mentioned, when you turn Downwind, your speed in relation to the ground increases dramaticly. However, your airspeed is what your ASI says regardless what the view appears to be. The wing that has the up aileron stalls at the tip inducing a very impressive snap into an inverted position. All of this happens in the blink of an eye. Instinct will tell the pilot to correct with more aileron, further aggrevating the situation and continuing the spin.

Stall, spin, crash.

Screw-Out
 
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your airspeed is what your ASI says less the speed of the wind. ie. 65mph indicated - 20mph wind = 35mph real.

This isn't even close to being correct, John. Please think it through.

Your airspeed is what the ASI says, period... that's why they call it an Air Speed Indicator. (Bearing in mind that there are two other kinds of airspeed, True and Calibrated, that don't really matter in this case).

Your groundpeed would be IAS - windspeed IF AND ONLY IF you were headed directly into the wind. Downwind, groundspeed is IAS plus wind. At ninety degrees to the direction of wind, airspeed = groundspeed. Calculating GS at other angles requires either trigonometry, enough experience to make an eyeball estimate, or an E6B. The E6B contains the necessary trig and hides it from the pilot.

This is a very ordinary stall-spin accident. As Langewiesche wrote, pilots are having them now and pilots will be having them in fifty years (he wrote that in 1944, and he was right than, and in 2044 you'll be able to say it again and still be right). At pattern altitude it is not recoverable nor, usually, survivable; it's almost certain that the pilot died.

Someone suggested it happened too fast to be a stall. Uh-uh. If you have only seen stalls at their most benign, in gentle-stalling trainers at forward CG with nice long entries, you can be excused for thinking so. You can make anything stallable stall hard by accelerating the stall with either or both of (1) an abrupt input and (2) and increased load factor (bank). Many older aircraft, and many experimental aircraft (the ill-fated a/c in the video is either a 1930s Tiger Moth or an experimental knock-off of same) have more violent stalls, less warning, and greater tendency to drop a wing and enter a spin, than aircraft certified post-WWII.

A stall-spin in a C150 with some power on happens about as fast as this, although you do have plenty of warning it's coming. You can still bang into the spin very quickly. The first time you are in a spin it is somewhat disorienting, and you can't learn recovery from a book or a simulator... you actually have to spin the SOB.

Ron's explanation of a stall-spin's aerodynamics was dead on target. Ron, of course, has done intentional spins. Everyone should (with proper instruction) if they fly fixed-wing.

Most planes will recover from a spin given enough altitude (although if it's placarded No Spins there's SOME reason!) but this guy in the video just went up there and killed himself as surely as if he blew his brains out with a revolver.

This is a real "Kids, don't try this at home" video.

cheers

-=K=-
 
Even in a gyro its advisable to have a good airspeed meter and sensitive altimeter
 
Hognose, you are right on the target... the same thing that i said... just explaned in a better manner.... it looked as if the pilot tried to keep the tail down a bit to maintain control on take off and build ground speed before lift off,, did you see that too ? or am i wrong about that?
 
Screw--I'll echo the others - you cant really be serious--
 
it looked as if the pilot tried to keep the tail down a bit to maintain control on take off and build ground speed before lift off,, did you see that too ?

Yes... it was either crummy taildragger technique, or perhaps he was tailheavy. That could also have contributed to a stall/spin. I looked at NTSB last night to see if there was an accident that matched, but no joy. Perhaps this is from Canada.

There are only two fatal DH89 Tiger Moth prangs and both were stall/spins but don't match this. I looked also at all accidents in which "video" was mentioned, back to 1989. Nothing close... the only biplanes were Great Lakes and Wacos, vastly different looking machines.

I suppose this could be something shot with models, for a movie or something.

Unfortunately in F/W training most pilots will never explore accelerated stalls and spins until they do CFI, and even then they often get the bare-minimum gloss-over. (You don't have to be proficient in spins and recovery to be CFI, you just have to have spin training logged).

I did my first spin entry entirely inadvertently, in a botched power-on stall, at age 16. It scared the living Jesus out of me (and my CFI, who recovered and explained what I had done wrong). Now I enjoy them but most of the planes I fly are placarded against them, and I'm usually flying from Point A to Point B.

cheers

-=K=-
 
I have always suspicioned that many of these downwind turn stalls result from the pilots lack of understanding of airspeed. If they really understood it...they would be far more careful doing these downwind turns near the ground...letting the extra blur of the ground speed fool them into thinking that all is ok....while their ASI is telling them the true facts.


Its been about enough time to have another downwind upwind discussion...seems they come around every 6 months or so....


Stan
 
i can promiss you that Screw understands this properly, he just used the wrong words to explain what he wanted to say. He might be big, redheaded and ugly, but he isn't totally dumb.... ;)
 

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Screw-In

Sorry guys,

It was late when I got in from UPS last night I was really tired. I re-read what I posted.....Opps I didn't even get the math right, much less the order. Rely on your instruments. I ment to say 65mph ground speed (Some folk have gps) - 20mph tail wind = 45mph Aispeed. Sorry, I'll shut up now.

When Scott and I flew to Chuck Irbys funeral I had my GPS with us. The ASI was reading 110knts, and the gps was reading 68kts. We didn't make it to the funeral.

BTW Ron, I'm not that smart. You have my gyro.

Screw-Out
 

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Yes... it was either crummy taildragger technique, or perhaps he was tailheavy. That could also have contributed to a stall/spin. I looked at NTSB last night to see if there was an accident that matched, but no joy. Perhaps this is from Canada.

There are only two fatal DH89 Tiger Moth prangs and both were stall/spins but don't match this. I looked also at all accidents in which "video" was mentioned, back to 1989. Nothing close... the only biplanes were Great Lakes and Wacos, vastly different looking machines.

I suppose this could be something shot with models, for a movie or something.

Unfortunately in F/W training most pilots will never explore accelerated stalls and spins until they do CFI, and even then they often get the bare-minimum gloss-over. (You don't have to be proficient in spins and recovery to be CFI, you just have to have spin training logged).

I did my first spin entry entirely inadvertently, in a botched power-on stall, at age 16. It scared the living Jesus out of me (and my CFI, who recovered and explained what I had done wrong). Now I enjoy them but most of the planes I fly are placarded against them, and I'm usually flying from Point A to Point B.

cheers

-=K=-

Well that windsock looks to be near a full value crosswind, so he probably kept the tail down longer to enhance is yaw control as it appears to have a pretty small rudder. If you watch the takeoff run, you can see the left wing lift a few times, then immediatly drop into the wind as soon as the plane gets airborn. His takeoff looks OK for that much crosswind.

As for training, I got my FW ticket back just after the FAA removed the spin requirement. You can get spin training if you ask for it, and I did. It was a very worthwile experience, and I personally feel it should never have been dropped from the requirements.

My last checkride, I got a little behind during a departure stall and stepped on the wrong rudder pedal and entered an inadvertent spin in a C150. Since I had been doing so well up to that point(first time flying with this particular CFI), we were both caught off guard by it and did a few rotations untill we both got our heads back in the game and initiated the proper recovery. He had never experienced an inadvertent spin before and was wondering why it happned till I spoke up and said that I stepped away from the ball. Because we were both so slow on the recovery, we went back up and did two more intentional spins for practice. That is why they are so deadly at low altitude. Very disconcerting and requires some carefull, thoughtfull reaction and altitude to recover. The only way to survive one at low altitude is to not have it.

Accelerated stalls can be a real eyeopener also, it is like tripping off the edge of the grand canyon:) It happens very fast and is very disorienting with all the aircraft pitch and roll in such a short time. If you are coordinated when it breaks, it will all settle out, if you are not, hope your seatbelt is tight and everything loose has been secured...

In this case, the pilots peripheral vision probably told him he was going faster than he was used to(forgot about the 10+ tailwind), and he listened instead of glancing at his airspeed to make sure his wings had enough airflow to fly... Very sad.
 
Yep. Military airplanes have AoA indicators and some experimentals have them now, also. A good AoA indicator is vastly better than an ASI for preventing spin entry.

You can't spin if you don't stall uncoordinated (although you can force the yaw by simply throwing power on at the moment of the stall). You can shorten that to, you can't spin if you don't stall. But stall is actually a function of angle of attack, not speed, at least not directly: airspeed is only one of several things that influences AoA. The others include weight, CG location, and acceleration. The best known accelerated stall is a stall in a steep bank, but that's not the only kind. You can actually stall with an abrupt pull-up from a dive. wings level, and this is also an accelerated stall. It's generally unwise to practice this type of stall in non-aerobatic aircraft, for fear of overstressing the airframe.

One occasional mishap occurs when some pilot feels like he wants to be Patty Wagstaff and tries to loop or roll without the right (a) airplane and (b) instruction. The a/c may stall out of the inverted position and actually enter an inverted spin. If you're not an experienced acro pilot, who has trained in this particular recovery -- rotsa ruck.

There are prangs in NTSB of everything from Ercoupes to King Airs (in 135 service, no less!) from exactly this kind of thing. Of course, it begins with one or more hazardous attitudes. A few years ago, Riddle tossed three students when they discovered they'd rolled one of the Mooneys they used to use for commercial training. They got caught when maintenance found signs of overstress in the airplane -- the carrythrough, wings and engine mount were all deformed and the machine was good for scrap.

When you buy a used aircraft, you're buying everything that previous owners and pilots did to it, which is a good reason to steer clear of rental/school aircraft unless you have a mech you trust with your life.

Literally.

cheers

-=K=-
 
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