We stripped her naked.

Vance

Gyroplane CFI
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Thank you for the thoughtful post Desmon.

Thank you for the thoughtful post Desmon.

I just have a couple of questions Vance.
If you are able to get things done correctly and in a timely manner what portions of the oral do you need to retest. Is it just endorsements? I have done many orals. Some with Feds and some without. Most often it is also includes teaching moments. I have had grueling 4-5 hour ones but cannot imagine one ever going so long to fatigue someone like that. Even by air flight standards it is far beyond the " legal flight limit " they were totally out of line to do that and not call a continuance if needed.

As for a training gyro. Do you plan to use your aircraft? If so you have flown yours and been I am sure as careful as could be expected. But even then have had repair issues. How do you feel it will hold up to the many stressful situations that a student might put you and the aircraft into?
Have you a plan to get a LODA? While training I treat my gyro just like a school fixed wing does. Meaning I have 100 hr inspections done faithfully. How will this play into your plan? What will you charge for instruction in your machine "wet"? Will you test fly the students gyro, or train them in it? What will be your ground school rates? When you are asked to do a sports CFI Checkride what will be your cost, gyro you will use, and criteria to test by?
Is your gyro night prepaired? How will you give night training required for private and commercial students. Have you flown your Gyro from the back seat for the hours day and night to handle it proficiently.

I promise Vance this is not meant to pick on you. I am just giving food for thought.

I know you probably have considered many if not all of these points. Please forgive me if you have already answered them.

Of course as a CFI it's possible to advise any student that you will only train in certain machines or day only. Or only to a certain level.

For instance I can train in a SparrowHawk but normally refer people to Mike in Provo or Steve in Georgia if that's what they really want to fly.
That is more than a couple of questions. I will do my best to answer them all.

I have tried to answer the questions in the order you asked them. If I missed one you feel is important please ask again.

I am in the hanger and typing this sporadically as we repair The Predator.

A remarkable number of people have stopped by.


Endorsements are all that is left to cover in the oral.

We already covered the teaching tasks in great detail over eleven hours.

The eleven and a half hours were over two days so I did not find it fatiguing.

Terry was very complimentary about my preparation.

Brandon’s instructor oral with Terry took nine hours and Brandon is a lot quicker than I and has a much better memory.

I look a lot up, often in several sources and carefully compose my answers. I am slow to create a lesson plan and Terry didn’t want to use any of them I had.

My friend who used to give initial CFI practical tests for the FAA feels that instructor is the PHD of aviation and it should be more difficult than all other ratings. He gave me a mock practical test and could understand why Terry took so long with me.

I feel Terry was fair and thorough.

He had his tasks to check off and endorsements was the last one.

Assuming things fall into place after the hopefully short oral we will fly.


Yes I have thought about these things a length.

At this time I am not planning to instruct in The Predator. She is a one of a kind and flies differently than any other gyroplane I have flown. I found The Predator is easier to fly from the back seat. I have not decided if I will get a LODA for the Predator. I would have 100 hour inspections done just as we did them with Puff. Puff has a LODA.

I don’t feel a student would be any harder on The Predator than I have been.

The Predator has required less work per flight hour than Puff.

I had more than 26 practice students in Puff and only one scared me and I have a low fear threshold. If I had him today I would handle it better. I have to admit that several surprised me.

I don’t know what my future relationship with Air Gyro will be; if I am training in their aircraft Air Gyro will set the hourly rate.

I don’t know what I would charge for a Sport Pilot CFI check ride. The aircraft will depend on the situation.

I feel the criteria for Sport Pilot is the same as private with some exceptions so an abbreviated PTS for private seems to me a good place to start. I don’t expect it to be cookie cutter simple.

I will be very cautious about test flying a student’s gyroplane and would expect it to be time consuming and expensive. I would not test fly a student’s aircraft without an A&P I am familiar with spending considerable time with it. I take flight testing very seriously and have a low fear threshold. I have several friends who want me to train them in their aircraft.

I have not yet set my ground school rates.

Both The Predator and the Cavalon (Puff) are night legal. I am not a night enthusiast and will find a night cross country of at least 50 miles I am comfortable flying. I have a couple in mind. KSMX is a great place to practice night takeoffs and landings. I could land anywhere on the down wind and the airport is well lit.

I will not train in a gyroplane I am unfamiliar with and I will not transition someone into a gyroplane I am unfamiliar with.

I will not train people who demonstrate hazardous attitudes.

For me it is all about sharing the joy I have found flying gyroplanes and trying to keep people from getting hurt.
 

Vance

Gyroplane CFI
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Thank you for the kind works Jake.

Thank you for the kind works Jake.

We all have conflicts with people no matter who you are.
Vance on the other hand seems to be perceived as incompetent to A LOT of people.
How many of us are in a Hall of fame?
How many of us have tried to set a world record?
How many of us raced cars and motorcycles on a regular basis?
Sure He has a sense of humor equal to a rock, sure he is a little eccentric, but these attributes do not make him incompetent.
Vance has done what most of us dream about doing.
Vance is a walking wealth of experience and knowledge who knows his mental and technical limits.
Vance isn't going to repair his gyro, but get the help of experienced technicians to repair his craft.
Vance doesn't take on the task of building his dream machine that came to a halt,but got experienced technicians to do the welding and fiberglass work.
Look in the mirror and ask your self; What have I accomplished? What is really in my knowledge base?
For a one eyed half a brain debilitated old man, I trust his judgment better than mine.
NUFF SAID.

Vance carry on and make your goals a reality or at least give it your best shot and be proud that you have tried and prouder if you succeed.

I didn’t know a lot of people perceived me as incompetent Jake.

I have been very fortunate in my life’s adventures and had the help of a lot of wonderful friends.

I didn’t race cars much, I actively road raced motorcycles for 23 years, 21 as a professional.

Bonneville is sort of the answer to what do we do after road racing.

Chasing the land speed record for motorcycles was one of my best adventures.

I have chased my dreams and been fortunate enough to catch up with a lot of them.

I don’t weld well with one eye and I am out of practice so Joe helped me out.

We designed the repair together.

I love spending time with Jim Belland and Mariah Gale was a wonderful opportunity to do that.

I don’t do fiberglass well and my friend Vince is an artist.

I have worked with a lot of smart people and learned a lot.

I am proud to know you Jake.
 

Vance

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Thank you Stan!

Thank you Stan!

Well said Jake. I have had the pleasure of sitting with Vance and getting hours of his valuable time just talking. The guy is a genius.....and does more with his 70% grey matter than I will ever accomplish with my 100%.

Vance is a goal setter and then is the most tenacious at making sure he achieves his goals. That's why he has such a phenomenal past following him around .

I thought maybe I am kind of sharp on one little area building curved stairways, but feel much a smaller person when talking with Vance. There is so much I don't know that he has stored away. He can hold his own at a higher level on more topics than anyone I know.

Vance has a different humor....but sometimes I really think he is sand bagging. He comes up with some of the funniest dry humor, that takes my brain a long time before it connects.

Vance is a very driven person, and in a MUCH smaller way, I am driven to try to make something out of my own life.

I have changed directions, but am being far more challenged , and I love it.

God bless you Vance and you will achieve your goal.
I love you Stan.

It is such a joy to have you in my life.

When I count my blessings you are always on the list.

I feel you underrate yourself.
 

Des Garvin

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Having fallowed this thread from the start, I can only make one statement of Vance, "A GREAT SUCCESFUL ACHIEVER" But then what else can you expect of a July 1949 born person. Takes one to be the same to understand. Vance keep your remarkable writing's coming and you will be successful one more time.
Des Garvin :yo::yo:
 

Vance

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Thank you for the kind words Des.

Thank you for the kind words Des.

Having fallowed this thread from the start, I can only make one statement of Vance, "A GREAT SUCCESFUL ACHIEVER" But then what else can you expect of a July 1949 born person. Takes one to be the same to understand. Vance keep your remarkable writing's coming and you will be successful one more time.
Des Garvin :yo::yo:
The thread got more than a little off track.

It was supposed to be about finding and fixing a crack in the frame of a gyroplane.

Thank you for coming along on the adventure.
 

Vance

Gyroplane CFI
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Progress!

Progress!

Joe made too sets of fish mouthed doublers.

One out of scrap .090 of unknown origin and one from .120 mild steel.

We stop drilled the crack and welded the holes.

We started with the .090 doublers and didn’t like the way they welded so we cut them off and used the .120 doublers.

The tab that the bearing block bolts to is only welded on one side and we left it that way because we felt that welding it on both sides would make it more inclined to tear the wall out of the tube.

The fish mouth was to keep from building a stress riser into the repair. We coordinated where the fish mouth ended with where the tab for the bearing block ended again to keep from creating a stress riser.

Too A&Ps inspected the repair and expect it to outlast the rest of the airframe.

I shot some paint on it to keep it from rusting. The flash of the camera hides some of the detail.

We also finished up the rotor and it is greased and back in place. I love having a gantry crane.

The repair on the rear body is coming along nicely.

Tomorrow is Savana’s wedding.

Sunday I will be back down here redoing the fuel lines and putting the floor panels back in place.

Our new latest goal is airworthy by Friday 9/18.
 

Attachments

gyrojake

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There are many ways to skin a cat and that looks like it will work.
I would have gone through a whole different approach which would have been more time consuming with the same structural results but a different cosmetic result.
Good job.
It's amazing how eclectic techniques of repair are.
 

Jazzenjohn

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I'm pretty sure Jake didn't mean how it came out Vance.

I like the repair. The fishmouthed ends make a better strength and stiffness transition to the original tube than straight cut ends would have made.
 

Vance

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I thought Jake was being complimentary John.

I thought you wouldn’t like it because the repair added over five ounces to the airframe.

We were trying to add beam strength to the tube without having to relocate all the tabs or interfere with the body mounts.

There is still a lot of stuff in the way because of the floor. The brake lines go through that floor and a lot of electrical is located on or near the floor. We held it out of the way with zip ties but it still made it a challenging welding environment. The front floor was very tricky to remove but it improved access.

We felt the outside doublers added more beam strength than an inside doubler and it made it easier to maintain the location of the bearing mount tab and body mount tabs.

I may need to clearance the body a little. It is at the painters now.

I preferred the .090 doublers but the material didn’t weld right so we switched to the .120 doublers of known material.

The actual repair took over five hours to complete.

I don’t have a compressor and Joe’s would not run on my power. He is an air tool enthusiast so he kept going back to his hanger (about a half mile away) to fill up his air tank.

We had a lot of visitors to the hangar and periodic inspections and even ATC came by to ask about my three month absence from the sky over SMX and why I wasn’t in the air show.

I don’t expect to see it crack again in that area but it is something I will keep my eye on.

The paint I am using will show a crack sooner. In my experience powder coat tends to hide cracks.

Now for the slow process of putting her back together trying not to have any parts left over begins.

Today’s focus is Savana’s wedding.
 
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All_In

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First we only have ONE legal CFI in the entire state of CA. Jon Stark however he only instructs in an 18A so I and the rest of us must travel to Organ, Utah, or Arizona for training.

CA needs CFI’s desperately!!!
We need them so badly that I’ve been contemplating training to become a CFI. However my bell curves are bound to go down sometime so I wonder being the same age as Vance if it's too late. I’ll keep training and will have to reevaluate my state each day.

I believe we have enough information to evaluate Vance’s ability and for those who do not know me I tell it like it is especially to family and friends.
That is difficult to risk friendships over but feel obligated in order to be a good friend!!!
I choose to assume that the questions critique of should Vance become a CFI was offered in the same spirit, in this case for public safety, and was not just hate.

I owned a FBO with a flight school for over 10 years. I’ve evaluated 100’s probably 1000’s of FW CFI’s.

The 1st thing we evaluated in an instructor was can they recognize, take-over the controls and recover before the students put themselves in danger.

We did this by putting the hood on them and having them stare at their lap, head down while I maneuvered the aircraft into unusual attitudes and always putting her in a spin and then telling them to recover just after the 1st or 2nd spin.

Does not matter how good or bad a teacher they are, if they cannot recognize and recover people will be hurt or killed.

Not all of them could recover!

I have evaluated Vance’s skills while watching his take-offs, landings, air-shows and I’ve flown with him as a passenger on an ‘E’ Ticket RIDE.

1. Vance has shown that he is one with the machine and can recognize and recover for himself and any student. = PASSES the most important test. Flies better than or as well as any of you YOUNG two eyed non-brain damages pilots with reflexes fast enough to fly airshow routines with a spacial awareness that demonstrates he can stay in the box!

2. He has shown that he can overcome all of his disabilities as he only started learning piloting, navigation, flying in controlled airspace, and aerodynamics after he had his brain damage and he adds every item you can image to his check lists. If interrupted on his pre-flight he starts over. PASSES learning new subjects and overcoming short term memory loss.

3. PASSES! He is now an EXPERIENCED (1500 hr+) private and commercial pilot passing I suspect a harder test and examination from inspectors than pilots without a disability.

4. He has demonstrated that once learned he retains information well enough to be one of the respected experts on here and he teaches piloting, regulations, communication, weather breifing, navigation, and aerodynamics that is usually 100% correct. PASSES being able to retrain and pass on knowledge learned even after brain damage.

5. Full disclosure of risk evaluation to public as a disabled pilot/CFI. PASSES again he is the only pilot I’ve flown with that required me reading an inherent risks of flying in an experimental aircraft with a one eyed, brain damaged pilot.

Vance is a class act who tells it like it is. I LIKE THAT… as I do the same!

I believe the above should answer anyone questioning his ability at this time to become a CFI!

I also believe with his knowledge, experience learning from so many instructors to select the best teaching practices and his piloting skill level he will be one of the best CFI's we have.

I hope to follow in his footsteps!
 
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Vance

Gyroplane CFI
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Thank you for the kind words John.

Thank you for the kind words John.

First we only have ONE legal CFI in the entire state of CA. Jon Stark however he only instructs in an 18A so I and the rest of us must travel to Organ, Utah, or Arizona for training.

CA needs CFI’s desperately!!!
We need them so badly that I’ve been contemplating training to become a CFI. However my bell curves are bound to go down sometime so I wonder being the same age as Vance if it's too late. I’ll keep training and will have to reevaluate my state each day.

I believe we have enough information to evaluate Vance’s ability and for those who do not know me I tell it like it is especially to family and friends.
That is difficult to risk friendships over but fell I must to be a good friend!!!
I choose to assume that the questions critique of should Vance become a CFI was offered in the same spirit and was not just hate.

I owned a FBO with a flight school for over 10 years. I’ve evaluated 100’s probably 1000’s of FW CFI’s.

The 1st thing we evaluated in an instructor was can they recognize, take-over the controls and recover before the students put themselves in danger.

We did this by putting the hood on them and having them stare at their lap, head down while I maneuvered the aircraft into unusual attitudes and always putting her in a spin and then telling them to recover just after the 1st or 2nd spin.

Does not matter how good or bad a teacher they are, if they cannot recognize and recover people will be hurt or killed.

Not all of them could recover!

I have evaluated Vance’s skills while watching his take-offs, landings, air-shows and I’ve flown with him as a passenger on an ‘E’ Ticket RIDE.

1. Vance has shown that he is one with the machine and can recognize and recover for himself and any student. = PASSES the most important test. Flies better than or as well as any of you YOUNG two eyed non-brain damages pilots with reflexes fast enough to fly airshow routines with a spacial awareness that demonstrates he can stay in the box!

2. He has shown that he can overcome all of his disabilities as he only started learning piloting, navigation, flying in controlled airspace, and aerodynamics after he had his brain damage and he adds every item you can image to his check lists. If interrupted on his pre-flight he starts over. PASSES learning new subjects and overcoming short term memory loss.

3. PASSES! He is now an EXPERIENCED (1500 hr+) private and commercial pilot passing I suspect a harder test and examination from inspectors than pilots without a disability.

4. He has demonstrated that once learned he retains information well enough to be one of the respected experts on here and he teaches piloting, navigation, and aerodynamics that is usually 100% correct. PASSES being able to retrain and pass on knowledge learned even after brain damage.

5. Full disclosure of risk evaluation to public as a disabled pilot/CFI. PASSES again he is the only pilot I’ve flown with that required me reading an inherent risks of flying in an experimental aircraft with a one eyed, brain damaged pilot.

Vance is a class act who tells it like it is. I LIKE THAT… as I do the same!

I believe the above should answer anyone questioning his ability at this time to become a CFI!

I also believe with his knowledge, experience learning from so many instructors to select the best teaching practices and his piloting skill level he will be one of the best CFI's we have.

I hope to follow in his footsteps!
That is an interesting way to evaluate a CFI John.

I didn’t realize I was being tested.

I worry about my ability to communicate gyroplane concepts with you John. We seem to get stuck on semantics.

My hope is that the aircraft will make a good teaching aid so you will be able to connect what you know with what you are learning.

There are two active gyroplane CFIs in California besides J.R. that I know of. One CFI is up by Sacramento and flies the Angry Bird Magni and another in Los Angles who is without an aircraft. I took some ground school from the one in LA and I felt he was very good. I have met the one in Northern California but have not flown with him.

I don’t have time right now to look up their names. I can find their names for you if it is important.

They are both listed in the FAA database.

Arizona and Utah aren't that far away.
 

All_In

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Not sure over 10,000+ logged FW, 260+ ultralights, sailplane, hang-gliders
That is an interesting way to evaluate a CFI John.

I didn’t realize I was being tested.

I worry about my ability to communicate gyroplane concepts with you John. We seem to get stuck on semantics.

My hope is that the aircraft will make a good teaching aid so you will be able to connect what you know with what you are learning.

There are two active gyroplane CFIs in California besides J.R. that I know of. One CFI is up by Sacramento and flies the Angry Bird Magni and another in Los Angles who is without an aircraft. I took some ground school from the one in LA and I felt he was very good. I have met the one in Northern California but have not flown with him.

I don’t have time right now to look up their names. I can find their names for you if it is important.

They are both listed in the FAA database.

Arizona and Utah aren't that far away.
I know the power of words Vance! These could do damage.
I suspect that we all test which instructor we select and words of doute posted that are based in questions of truths, where the anwser is YES, have lasting power to not only question ourselves but dissuade others.

So I did a fair evaluation for others to consider of your skill bases on what they can see and read here and make a fairer evaluation.

You could teach me the basic's enough to get my licensee that's not where you an I have had problems it's advanced physics and rotorcraft aerodynamics.

And buddy, Yes you have been a pain in my butt asking me not to post because I confuse you until I have more time in type calling me delusional out of your frustration, I suspect, when you do not know the anwser well enough to be able to explain to me which sentence is wrong and why so I could learn and correct it.
Name calling is not a good teaching skill and every question needs an anwser even if it's the teacher bringing in a book and telling you the anwser is in here.

Teachers did this to me my entire school life. Until an older woman while in college told me. You know why he called your question stupid? "Because he did not know the anwser!" I've never let teacher get away with that again except for you on this forum and only out of respect!

You gave me insight into flying gyro planes before I took my first instruction. Which the instructors may not have noticed, but I knew; the procedure from your an others descriptions on here so I knew what to expect and do. I haven't had an instructor do an actually blade flap yet. But I know what to do and bet I act almost automatically the 1st time as I've imaged actually doing each step so often. That what you and others can do on this forum and you will do in person!

You will make a GREAT CFI!
 
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Jazzenjohn

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5 OUNCES Vance !!??!!? What the heck did you patch that tube with... Depleted Uranium??? JK
 

j bird

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CFI, George M. Woods
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Magni M16
 

MarkG

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Vance, Glad to hear the Predator is on the mend!! Will you make El-Mirage this year? My friends Gary Brewer, Bob and Bob are all planning to be out there....
 

Kolibri

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Vance, before you continue to falsely disparge my particular RAF as "poorly maintained" you can first own up to and apologize for the previous erroneous accusation about my flying passengers with a "cognizant defect in the rotor system".

Anyone who has been around me knows I don’t rush anything to do with aviation.
Well, you posted that your own IA thought you were rushing things. Just quoting you, Vance.

Anyone who flies or trains with me will know the extent of my limitations and have made a careful risk assessment.
So you keep saying. I'd like to read that spiel.

I am not in great physical condition and at some point I will have to give up flying. I will cross that bridge when I come to it.
I have strong doubts that you are likely to correctly self-diagnose that point, nor listen to others whom you believe prematurely urge your retirement. As you wrote, "overconfidence is my nemesis".

Sorry, but I'm not as impressed with your judgment as you are. Example: not even on a mild dare (but merely a question from ATC about Predator's service ceiling) you took her to ~12,500' when you'd previously ascertained that your personal hypoxia ceiling was only ~8,500'. Then, at that ~12,500 you made an admittedly hypoxic decision to shut down your engine for a 15nm glide to homebase.

Sure, you're highly skilled, but it'd have been great if you were a CFI before you got all banged up from your motorcycle crashes, lost an eye, and damaged your memory. To do so now seems hubristic.

I think you've too many "weak links" in your "chain" and thus it's inappropriate to take up students. Stay active, live your flying dream, but leave others out of it is my unsolicited advice. You won't do that, of course, but rather continue your lifelong trajectory of relentless "Look at me!" exhibitionism. At least when you were racing, you were solo.

Regards, Kolibri
 

Vance

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Vance, before you continue to falsely disparge my particular RAF as "poorly maintained" you can first own up to and apologize for the previous erroneous accusation about my flying passengers with a "cognizant defect in the rotor system".


Well, you posted that your own IA thought you were rushing things. Just quoting you, Vance.


So you keep saying. I'd like to read that spiel.


I have strong doubts that you are likely to correctly self-diagnose that point, nor listen to others whom you believe prematurely urge your retirement. As you wrote, "overconfidence is my nemesis".

Sorry, but I'm not as impressed with your judgment as you are. Example: not even on a mild dare (but merely a question from ATC about Predator's service ceiling) you took her to ~12,500' when you'd previously ascertained that your personal hypoxia ceiling was only ~8,500'. Then, at that ~12,500 you made an admittedly hypoxic decision to shut down your engine for a 15nm glide to homebase.

Sure, you're highly skilled, but it'd have been great if you were a CFI before you got all banged up from your motorcycle crashes, lost an eye, and damaged your memory. To do so now seems hubristic.

I think you've too many "weak links" in your "chain" and thus it's inappropriate to take up students. Stay active, live your flying dream, but leave others out of it is my unsolicited advice. You won't do that, of course, but rather continue your lifelong trajectory of relentless "Look at me!" exhibitionism. At least when you were racing, you were solo.

Regards, Kolibri
I thought you wrote you had made your point.

You have made your position clear so it is time for you to stop repeating yourself.

Please find something else to do.

I am not interested in trying to find a new way to tell you that you don’t need to train with me, I would not accept you as a student, I would not fly in your gyroplane and I feel you need more training because you write repeatedly that your instructor gave you misinformation and was dishonest.

I am going to continue to pursue my goal of becoming a gyroplane certified flight instructor.

Your appear to me to be incapable of changing your mind about anything so for me to try to communicate with you is pointless.
 
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Vance

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Nipomo,California
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Vance, Glad to hear the Predator is on the mend!! Will you make El-Mirage this year? My friends Gary Brewer, Bob and Bob are all planning to be out there....
At this time it doesn't seem likely I will make The Ken Brock Freedom Fly In in The Predator.

I am trying to stay focused on the CFI practical test and it would be stupid if I broke her and my 60 days expired.

As much fun as eleven and a half hours of oral was: I would rather not repeat it from the beginning.
 

PW_Plack

Active Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
8,538
Location
West Valley City, Utah, USA
Aircraft
Sport Copter Vortex 582
Total Flight Time
FW: 200 Gyro: 51
I have strong doubts...

...I'm not as impressed with your judgment as you are...

...I think you've too many "weak links" in your "chain..."
Fortunately for all of us, the opinions of a self-important, anonymous forum troll will not likely keep Vance from his goal, nor discourage any of us who look forward to taking instruction from him.

Given the body count of your personal choice for CFI, I hope you'll excuse me for discounting your advice on how to make such a choice.

I'd like to read that spiel.
That would require stepping out from behind your keyboard and interacting in-person with the community, which doesn't appear to be your style. So as one who has flown with Vance, I will tell you that the disclaimer covers both him and his machine. It is so complete and brutally honest, and accompanied by Vance's equally candid verbal explanation of his disability, that some people at first think it's dark humor.

You should stick to slamming Dofin. At least you have some first-hand knowledge on the topic.
 

RotorTom

Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2008
Messages
841
Location
Colorado
Aircraft
Enstrom 480B, CTLS, Ercoupe
Total Flight Time
5000+
Kolibri is a coward. Cowards need anonymity.
 
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