We stripped her naked.

Vance

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Mild steel frames really don't need stress relieving if you know how to weld them properly

I have built midget and full sized sprint cars using 1020,1025 seamless tubing without any

problems. Mild steel tubing tends to take vibrations and crack less than harder steels.

Piper cubs also used mild steel tubing as did most of the pre and post war II small planes

of that period. Mig welding would be better than gas welding,with regards to frame stress.


Best regards,
Thank you for a more knowledgeable, useful opinion Eddie.

My respect for you continues to grow.
 
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j4flyer

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Vance good catch on the crack and thanks for shutting down the discussion on materials. I can assure everyone the choice was very well debated and investigated prior to its selection. As you know the materials used were never made a secret to anyone asking.
 

HobbyCAD

Homebuilt Heli Enthusiast
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One can TIG weld an airframe out of 4130N, and not need to do any stress relieving or post weld heat treat it. The 4130N tubes of our Seabird Seeker airframe is thrown in the jig, TIG welded, and that's it. After that it's corrosion protected and painted, end of fabrication process. I suspect the Maule is made the same.

As was correctly stated, many older airframes out there were in fact made from mild steel, not CroMo. The Tiger Moths in the hangar next to us are an example.

Cheers,

F.
 
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tuyvuong46

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Hello - chúc m?i ngu?i cu?i tu?n vui v?,
Các b?n ho?c ngu?i quen c?a các b?n c?n mua xe nâng hÃ*ng FORKLIFT thì liên h? mình nhé, Thúy HoÃ*ng - 0909648178 | Có c? xe nâng m?i - xe nâng cu - cho thuê xe nâng dÃ*i h?ng vÃ* ng?n h?ng. C?m on m?i ngu?i. Mình ? bên"xe nâng Nissan" .
 

Vance

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A delay in the plans.

A delay in the plans.

The repair has been postponed till Friday morning to better manage schedules.

There are probably two days of work to put her cloths back on and hook everything up plus an inspection from Coastal Valley Aviation and a condition inspection sign off.

Savanah is getting married this Saturday so I am aiming for Tuesday, September 15 for the maintenance flight.

This will be the first flight for The Predator since June, 2014.
 
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Kolibri

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That's a lot of cycles, and I wonder if any other AI or A&P would have noticed the frame crack that you missed. I.e., were you lucky that he in particular caught it since not everyone else would have? Vance, I suspect that you're bordering into unnecessary risk with The Predator, as well as with yourself and your passengers.

A little backstory to illustrate that I am not trying to pick on you:

My FW CFI lost his medical years before I was his student, but got it back. He was a fine instructor, very patient and thorough. A week before my PTS, Dave had a stroke. (He had been up with a student just days before.) The stroke rigified his body ("stiff as a board") and his wife had to slide him out of the chair onto the floor. Had the stroke happened in the cockpit, he'd have probably jammed one or both of the pedals, and a student would have had no small amount of trouble landing safely. Dave never regained consciousness, and died on the day we'd scheduled for my checkride. His family touchingly referred to me as his "last success". Nobody thought he had been taking unnecessary chances with his health; the whole thing stunned us all.

However, after your horrific near-fatal motorcycle accident, loss of one eye, TBI effects, and about a decade from statistical mortality, most CFIs would be retiring from flight instruction, not embarking on it. Also, California already has gyro CFIs, all of whom are competing for students -- which makes me wonder what purported advantage you'll claim over younger-but-more-experienced CFIs without your handicaps.

After reading hundreds of your posts, my sense is that you very much prefer (if not rely upon) order, sequentiality, simplicity, and predictableness. I've seen very little patience for nuance. Thus, I am sincerely concerned that you could easily become overwhelmed during an odd and confusing cascade of unplanned events with a student. Any mind can "tilt" with an overload of stimuli, and it seems fair to say that you're more at risk of this after the TBI.

I guess it boils down to the never-irrelevant argument of "can" vs. "should". My impression is that you doggedly pursue challenging goals, although at times with questionable prudence. You've all but implied this yourself in some of your posts. Now, I've no doubt that some gyro pilots who know you will rise to your defense. However, my opinion is not unique, but shared by some gyro pilots who do know you.

In short, perhaps The Predator's crack and your having failed the CFI oral exam are the "universe's way" of getting your attention? While I do appreciate your technical savvy and experience, and have often learned from your posts, as a fellow gyronaut I would urge deep reflection and the widest counsel about the wisdom of your becoming a CFI. Isn't remaining "merely" a gyro pilot enough of a personal victory, and the fairest thing to students?

Respectfully, Kolibri
 

eddie

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kolibri you really need to man up and take a few calculated risks,it sounds like from your

posts that you really afraid to fly in a gyro or take any kind of risk without fear of death.


geez its just a small crack in the frame for christs sake not the end of life as we know it.

Vance's life is his to live the way he wants to,butt out with your comments.



regards,
 

Vance

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Some reasonable questions.

Some reasonable questions.

That's a lot of cycles, and I wonder if any other AI or A&P would have noticed the frame crack that you missed. I.e., were you lucky that he in particular caught it since not everyone else would have? Vance, I suspect that you're bordering into unnecessary risk with The Predator, as well as with yourself and your passengers.

A little backstory to illustrate that I am not trying to pick on you:

My FW CFI lost his medical years before I was his student, but got it back. He was a fine instructor, very patient and thorough. A week before my PTS, Dave had a stroke. (He had been up with a student just days before.) The stroke rigified his body ("stiff as a board") and his wife had to slide him out of the chair onto the floor. Had the stroke happened in the cockpit, he'd have probably jammed one or both of the pedals, and a student would have had no small amount of trouble landing safely. Dave never regained consciousness, and died on the day we'd scheduled for my checkride. His family touchingly referred to me as his "last success". Nobody thought he had been taking unnecessary chances with his health; the whole thing stunned us all.

However, after your horrific near-fatal motorcycle accident, loss of one eye, TBI effects, and about a decade from statistical mortality, most CFIs would be retiring from flight instruction, not embarking on it. Also, California already has gyro CFIs, all of whom are competing for students -- which makes me wonder what purported advantage you'll claim over younger-but-more-experienced CFIs without your handicaps.

After reading hundreds of your posts, my sense is that you very much prefer (if not rely upon) order, sequentiality, simplicity, and predictableness. I've seen very little patience for nuance. Thus, I am sincerely concerned that you could easily become overwhelmed during an odd and confusing cascade of unplanned events with a student. Any mind can "tilt" with an overload of stimuli, and it seems fair to say that you're more at risk of this after the TBI.

I guess it boils down to the never-irrelevant argument of "can" vs. "should". My impression is that you doggedly pursue challenging goals, although at times with questionable prudence. You've all but implied this yourself in some of your posts. Now, I've no doubt that some gyro pilots who know you will rise to your defense. However, my opinion is not unique, but shared by some gyro pilots who do know you.

In short, perhaps The Predator's crack and your having failed the CFI oral exam are the "universe's way" of getting your attention? While I do appreciate your technical savvy and experience, and have often learned from your posts, as a fellow gyronaut I would urge deep reflection and the widest counsel about the wisdom of your becoming a CFI. Isn't remaining "merely" a gyro pilot enough of a personal victory, and the fairest thing to students?

Respectfully, Kolibri
You are entitled to your opinions and they were nicely presented.

I enjoy teaching and my practice students have enjoyed learning.

I do not take my failing the oral part of the practical test to be a sign that I shouldn’t pursue becoming a CFI. If anything I am encouraged because the challenge has been narrowed down to endorsements and flying while teaching to commercial standards. Before the challenge was all of part 61 and part 91 of the FARs, all of the AIM, the Flight Instructors Handbook and the Rotorcraft Flying Handbook. It is the first time I felt the goal of becoming a CFI was in reach and the task was managable.

The environment of the oral is very challenging to my poor memory. When I have students I will be prepared and organized.

I have heard anywhere from 50% to 80% of the applicants fail on their initial CFI practical test.
A friend of mine who used to give initial instructor practical tests for the FAA gave me a mock practical test and asked me at the end what I was going to do if I failed. I told him I would retest. “Perfect” he said.

Terry complimented me on my preparation several times throughout the eleven and a half hour oral.

As to the question of marketability; I have six friends who call me regularly to ask about my status who want to start training as soon as I become a CFI. Four of them (two couples) are delaying ordering two Cavalons until I become a CFI. They were all my practice students. There are many more who have made an oral commitment but are not as pushy. I have explained to all of them that I feel Michael Burton is a better instructor. Any one of them would more than pay my out of pocket expenses to become a CFI if I instructed them to private pilot.

I have not made an effort to market something I don’t have. Only time will tell if there is a market. I don’t see why it matters. I have learned a lot on this adventure and if I stopped today it would be time well spent.

I tell everyone I fly with the nature of my handicaps and the nature of experimental aircraft so they can make it a part of their personal risk assessment.

I have flown with 23 CFIs and I would not recommend some of them. I feel I can do better than many of them.

I do not take the crack in the frame tube as a sign The Predator is not safe. It was a different IA who found other cracks in the frame. None of them would have caused a catastrophic failure including this one. I don’t expect to be teaching in The Predator anyway because it is a one of a kind gyroplane and flies very differently that anything commercially available. I have given over 150 introductory lessons in The Predator without charge and it would be nice to get something to cover expenses. As a CFI with a LODA I could charge for introductory lessons in The Predator.

I have no intention of becoming a full time CFI. If there is too much work I will start a flight school and hire it done.

My mother drove and worked until she stroked out at 89. The last time I checked my blood pressure it was 120 over 80.
 
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Kolibri

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kolibri you really need to man up and take a few calculated risks,it sounds like from your posts that you really afraid to fly in a gyro or take any kind of risk without fear of death.
LOL, eddie, I continue to fly an RAF which was co-built and "maintained" by Coffin, so perhaps I'm one of the bravest gyro pilots on RWF. ;) And I flew ~80 hours in my first year with it.

_________
Thank you for the courteous reply, Vance.

None of the tubes we repaired have broken again.
At some point "repairs" morph into Band-Aids. How close do you want to flirt with that?

I have demonstrated my knowledge by maintaining The Predator in airworthy condition for more than 1,300 hours.
Yes, but quite a bit of good fortune has also been "demonstrated". For example, this most recent crack was:

the latest of several previously repaired
though not critical, serious enough to deny airworthiness
openable by hand (i.e., well-developed and poised to soon fully propagate in the air)
unnoticed by you (as were others)
found only during a condition inspection (vs. any of your own pre-flights) by an A&P who resisted being rushed
admittedly "not the first crack we found and it won’t be the last" as the "over 1,500 hours . . . and the thousands of cycles are catching up with her".

She already has time in excess of what the designer/ builder contemplated. After your 1,300+ hours of your vigorous flying, don't you think she's by now paid for herself in enjoyment? You may want to seriously consider retiring The Predator instead of playing catch-up to further cracking (which you may not personally discover before such causes real trouble).


Now the most pressing task is to repair the Predator so I can schedule the re-test.
The truly "pressing" thing about any of this is your determination to get it all Over With, for example your post of 19 August:

It was good the IA didn’t sign The Predator off because we found a crack in the frame on Monday. He felt we were rushing things to try to finish up on Friday.
http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=613413&postcount=259
Three weeks later you're apparently (again) rushing to get her back in the air because you don't want to re-take the entire oral exam. While you seem to have some good assistance on the weld job for a competent repair, your rather breathless account of it all reminds me of "get-there-itis" where pilots rush through a pre-flight. (Had the head mechanic from Coastal Valley Aviation succumbed to your inspection tempo, he might not have discovered this non-obvious crack. Think about that.) Did it ever occur to you that everyone involved is rearranging their schedules to accommodate a repair on a crack that was present for the past 14 months?

From reading your thread, I'm getting an "Argh, I'm sooo close!" frustration from you. Wouldn't it be wise to Zen-out on this and really take your time, regardless of the oral exam expiration? With your daughter's wedding on Sunday, you seem to have enough on your plate as it is.

In my opinion, getting your CFI means so (too?) much to you that you are repetitively rushing matters. Stop. Relax. Re-center.

As far as your becoming a CFI at all, though others may disagree I still see you as on the wrong side of too many Bell curves. I've made my point on that, and won't belabor it. While I've qualified admiration for your determination, IMO taking up students is going too far . . . and I'll leave it at that.

Regards, Kolibri
 
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Vance

Gyroplane CFI
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More words to say the same thing.

More words to say the same thing.

LOL, eddie, I continue to fly an RAF which was co-built and "maintained" by Coffin, so perhaps I'm one of the bravest gyro pilots on RWF. ;) And I flew ~80 hours in my first year with it.

_________
Thank you for the courteous reply, Vance.


At some point "repairs" morph into Band-Aids. How close do you want to flirt with that?


Yes, but quite a bit of good fortune has also been "demonstrated". For example, this most recent crack was:

the latest of several previously repaired
though not critical, serious enough to deny airworthiness
openable by hand (i.e., well-developed and poised to soon fully propagate in the air)
unnoticed by you (as were others)
found only during a condition inspection (vs. any of your own pre-flights) by an A&P who resisted being rushed
admittedly "not the first crack we found and it won’t be the last" as the "over 1,500 hours . . . and the thousands of cycles are catching up with her".

She already has time in excess of what the designer/ builder contemplated. After your 1,300+ hours of your vigorous flying, don't you think she's by now paid for herself in enjoyment? You may want to seriously consider retiring The Predator instead of playing catch-up to further cracking (which you may not personally discover before such causes real trouble).



The truly "pressing" thing about any of this is your determination to get it all Over With, for example your post of 19 August:



Three weeks later you're apparently (again) rushing to get her back in the air because you don't want to re-take the entire oral exam. While you seem to have some good assistance on the weld job for a competent repair, your rather breathless account of it all reminds me of "get-there-itis" where pilots rush through a pre-flight. (Had the head mechanic from Coastal Valley Aviation succumbed to your inspection tempo, he might not have discovered this non-obvious crack. Think about that.) Did it ever occur to you that everyone involved is rearranging their schedules to accommodate a repair on a crack that was present for the past 14 months?

From reading your thread, I'm getting an "Argh, I'm sooo close!" frustration from you. Wouldn't it be wise to Zen-out on this and really take your time, regardless of the oral exam expiration? With your daughter's wedding on Sunday, you seem to have enough on your plate as it is.

In my opinion, getting your CFI means so (too?) much to you that you are repetitively rushing matters. Stop. Relax. Re-center.

As far as your becoming a CFI at all, though others may disagree I still see you as on the wrong side of too many Bell curves. I've made my point on that, and won't belabor it. While I've qualified admiration for your determination, IMO taking up students is going too far . . . and I'll leave it at that.

Regards, Kolibri
I feel it is time for you to step away from the mirror. You are flying a poorly maintained kit aircraft with a terrible safety record. You have an automobile engine on it that has a poor reputation for reliability as an aircraft engine. In my opinion you will never catch up with the maintenance on your aircraft and the person who recently signed off your RAF with a leaking tank as airworthy taught you a bad lesson.

You received flight training from someone who you have repeatedly written is not a qualified gyroplane instructor and you feel he gave you some misinformation and yet you immediately went out and gave unsuspecting people a ride in your aircraft despite a known defect of the fuel tank and a poor understanding of the aircraft’s weaknesses.

My unsolicited advice to you is to get more training, more flight hours and understand the maintenance better before taking people for rides in your RAF.

Based on your posts I don’t expect you to understand that.

In my opinion any crack in the frame needs to be repaired before any aircraft is airworthy. It doesn’t matter how dangerous it is. The last crack I repaired that in my opinion made her not airworthy was on the step to get in the aircraft. The step is not a flight critical component.

I would never be the one to discount luck.

In my experience the more I learn and the harder I work the luckier I get.

The reason I was working on The Predator in August was I wanted to fly her in the Thunder over the Valley Air Show at KSMX. This is the first Thunder Over the Valley airshow I have missed flying in five years.

I stopped working on The Predator because I felt I needed to focus on studying for the practical test and plan A was to use a Cavalon for the Practical test and plan B was to use The Predator for the practical test. I had my priorities and stopped working on The Predator.

When I returned from the practical test I wanted to determine how long it would take to repair and see if that fit the time line for the retest. The predator didn’t come with a maintenance manual and flat rates so each operation takes on its own timeframe. We have to reach the area, determine the reason for the failure and design and fabricate the repair based on available resources.

We expect to finish the repair on Friday morning and start putting her back together. I am having the rear fiberglass repaired and it won’t be done till 9/16. I hope to have her back together and airworthy by 9/17. If it doesn’t work out I will go to plan B which is to borrow the Cavalon for the practical test.

Anyone who has been around me knows I don’t rush anything to do with aviation.

I like to chase my dreams and make each day of my life as special as it can be.

Fortunately you don’t have to use me for a gyroplane instructor and I don’t have to accept you as a student.

I road raced for 23 years and only crashed three times on a level where most crash four times per season. I stopped motorcycle road racing when I was 40 because I felt I was too old to do the machine justice even though I won my last race. I felt there was a disconnect between what my mind thought I could do and the limitations of my body. I only raced at the Isle of Mann once because I scared myself. I am a man who knows his limitations.

I crashed the streamliner in 1995 at around 300 miles per hour and didn’t race her again because my neurologist advised against it. He feels head injuries are cumulative and tipping over is a part of racing streamlined motorcycles at Bonneville. I gave up the dream of being the fastest man on two wheels because of my personal limitations.

The last time I raced at Bonneville was 2001 on an open bike. I have not raced there since because it is expensive although I have a partially finished Hayabusa project in the wings that might bring me back. I attend most Bonneville Speed Weeks to share what I have learned with those who have less land speed racing experience and I am a part of a team who is racing a Sportster that we built 35 years ago that is still setting records. I have been spending money to recover from a financial reversal 2005 and flying gyroplanes. I have my priorities.

When I was inducted into the Dry Lakes Racing Hall of Fame in 2008 most of the people at the ceremony were much older than me and many are still racing to this day. Most that are not here had great adventures till the end.

I have learned much about risk assessment and management over the years and would like to share what I have learned with my friends. It appears to me being a gyroplane CFI is a good way to do that.

I feel that to retreat from challenge and adventure would be a sure way to shorten my life.

Anyone who flies or trains with me will know the extent of my limitations and have made a careful risk assessment.

Based on your posts I don’t expect you to understand any of this.

I am glad you feel you have made your point and I look forward to you leaving this thread.

Writing the same thing twice is pretty much my limit.

I am old (66) The Predator is old (16 calendar years & 60 gyroplane years) and I have limitations because of my multiple traumatic brain injuries. I am not in great physical condition and at some point I will have to give up flying. I will cross that bridge when I come to it.

I have access to much newer machines.

It is hard for me to imagine that you actually believe I have not considered all of this. I suspect you are just making an effort to be annoying.
 

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j bird

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Vance, all I can say "touche"
 

RotorTom

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Holy crap Kolibri ... you really have to work at being that much of a jerk.
 

M._Springer

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Vance is a class act.

Vance is a class act.

I have flown with him a number of times in the Predator and enjoyed every flight. He makes better landings with one eye than a lot of people do with two eyes.
Marion
 

Vance

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Thank you for the kind words.

Thank you for the kind words.

Thank you Arnie and Jay; I don’t like to be so harsh. My nature is not well suited to debate or repetition.

Nicely put Tom. I admire the way you can say so much with so few words. I often miss the mark on that and waste a lot of time trying to address every point in the hopes someone reading will learn something or the fear that someone will believe what someone has written.

Thank you Marion I always enjoy flying with you and your children. I am proud to have flown three generations. I can’t think of a greater vote of confidence. Thank you for being one of my aviation mentors. I learn so much each time I fly at El Mirage.

I can understand wanting to express his point of view once and he is not alone in questioning my becoming a CFI and the health of The Predator. He is not the first to take my openness as weakness and the way I express my confusion as ignorance.

When he repeated himself I suspected he was trying to pick a fight with me until I realized he was probably just looking in the mirror and realized he lacked an understanding of aviation despite his bluster. It is natural for him to be afraid of his aviation decision making.

I am concerned for his safety because of the way he imagines he has found the answers.

I never stop looking for better answers and try to pass it forward as I find them.

I forgot to mention three of the best gyroplane CFIs I have flown with are my age or older; Terry Brandt, Chris Burgess and Jim Mayfield.
 

M._Springer

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Vance re your statement

Vance re your statement

that three of the best CFI's you have ever flown with were your age or older, I like to see grey in the hair of my airline captain and my doctor, or anyone who has some control over my life and safety.
Marion
 

okikuma

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Life is full of self appointed experts who are legends in their own mind. Perhaps the good Lord has created them to show us how not to be. Vance, I can vouch you're not one of "them."

Wayne
 
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Texasautogyro

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What will you train in?

What will you train in?

I just have a couple of questions Vance.
If you are able to get things done correctly and in a timely manner what portions of the oral do you need to retest. Is it just endorsements? I have done many orals. Some with Feds and some without. Most often it is also includes teaching moments. I have had grueling 4-5 hour ones but cannot imagine one ever going so long to fatigue someone like that. Even by air flight standards it is far beyond the " legal flight limit " they were totally out of line to do that and not call a continuance if needed.

As for a training gyro. Do you plan to use your aircraft? If so you have flown yours and been I am sure as careful as could be expected. But even then have had repair issues. How do you feel it will hold up to the many stressful situations that a student might put you and the aircraft into?
Have you a plan to get a LODA? While training I treat my gyro just like a school fixed wing does. Meaning I have 100 hr inspections done faithfully. How will this play into your plan? What will you charge for instruction in your machine "wet"? Will you test fly the students gyro, or train them in it? What will be your ground school rates? When you are asked to do a sports CFI Checkride what will be your cost, gyro you will use, and criteria to test by?
Is your gyro night prepaired? How will you give night training required for private and commercial students. Have you flown your Gyro from the back seat for the hours day and night to handle it proficiently.

I promise Vance this is not meant to pick on you. I am just giving food for thought.

I know you probably have considered many if not all of these points. Please forgive me if you have already answered them.

Of course as a CFI it's possible to advise any student that you will only train in certain machines or day only. Or only to a certain level.

For instance I can train in a SparrowHawk but normally refer people to Mike in Provo or Steve in Georgia if that's what they really want to fly.
 

gyrojake

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We all have conflicts with people no matter who you are.
Vance on the other hand seems to be perceived as incompetent to A LOT of people.
How many of us are in a Hall of fame?
How many of us have tried to set a world record?
How many of us raced cars and motorcycles on a regular basis?
Sure He has a sense of humor equal to a rock, sure he is a little eccentric, but these attributes do not make him incompetent.
Vance has done what most of us dream about doing.
Vance is a walking wealth of experience and knowledge who knows his mental and technical limits.
Vance isn't going to repair his gyro, but get the help of experienced technicians to repair his craft.
Vance doesn't take on the task of building his dream machine that came to a halt,but got experienced technicians to do the welding and fiberglass work.
Look in the mirror and ask your self; What have I accomplished? What is really in my knowledge base?
For a one eyed half a brain debilitated old man, I trust his judgment better than mine.
NUFF SAID.

Vance carry on and make your goals a reality or at least give it your best shot and be proud that you have tried and prouder if you succeed.
 

StanFoster

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1250
Well said Jake. I have had the pleasure of sitting with Vance and getting hours of his valuable time just talking. The guy is a genius.....and does more with his 70% grey matter than I will ever accomplish with my 100%.

Vance is a goal setter and then is the most tenacious at making sure he achieves his goals. That's why he has such a phenomenal past following him around .

I thought maybe I am kind of sharp on one little area building curved stairways, but feel much a smaller person when talking with Vance. There is so much I don't know that he has stored away. He can hold his own at a higher level on more topics than anyone I know.

Vance has a different humor....but sometimes I really think he is sand bagging. He comes up with some of the funniest dry humor, that takes my brain a long time before it connects.

Vance is a very driven person, and in a MUCH smaller way, I am driven to try to make something out of my own life.

I have changed directions, but am being far more challenged , and I love it.

God bless you Vance and you will achieve your goal.
 
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