water damage?

[WindRyder06]

Scott and Ron,

I don’t think Joe is willing to listen to the voice of experience. Scott, aren’t you an aircraft mechanic for a major air carrier? Don’t you hold an A&P Rating with the FAA? I know if Scott told me that something needed to be fixed on my gyro I would be fixing it. Scott is someone that we all can depend on to help our sport be much safer because of his knowledge and experience.

Ron, as we all know how you came into this group. You did not really want to listen to some of the folks that had been around this sport for many years. Now there are many out there listen to you and take your advice. I know when we first met I did not want to be around you because of your dangerous attitude. That has now grown into something useful because you started to listen to others and you quit being so head strong. You are still head strong but in a different way. Ron is someone that we all can depend on to make our sport much safer because of his knowledge and experience.

Joe, these two guys are trying to tell you something based on their knowledge and experience and the passion for our sport. You see the gyro community has had this BIG black eye for the past several years. That black eye is starting to clear up because people like Scott and Ron and may others. We are all tired of seeing our friends get killed in a sport that they enjoy. They are getting killed because they did not listen to the word of experience. I am not saying that you are going to go out and kill yourself in a gyro and I am not questioning your abilities as a mechanic. What I am saying is I think I would listen to the word of knowledge and experience.

I know that I have changed everything that I was doing with my gyros because I listened to the guys that have been around this sport for many years and want it to become much safer. We want our friends to be around to enjoy it as well! A very good friend told me “fix it but don’t fly it”. To see what he was talking about go to https://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4554 It was a very hard decision to make but I know I did the right thing.


Fly Safe,
Chris

 

[spaceman spiff]

Yes, Thank god.

No doubt your point is: reliabilty and quality are important.

 

[spaceman spiff]

Winryder, Please don't assume i am not listening. Look up a couple posts and see what i said, in particular, notice that I am considering not even persuing a rebuild and just buying a new gyro, that consideration is based in part on comments from these guys saying that the 532 is not the best engine even if it were completely new, amoung other coments as well. if i jump up and salute the great Ron, and say yes sir! and spend 2 grand on a rebuild of a 532, i'm stuck with a 532 that based on other comments he has made is not a good engine anyway. If i go the other way and spend 20 grand on a new bird i might find that i have spent my life savings on something i don't like after two flights. Are you qualified to make that decision for me? Of course not! You are not me.

I have a long shopping list of things i might want, but except for a couple tires and manuals i have not bought anything that comits me to flying this bird, there is a reason for that. i am keeping my options open till i am completly satisfied i am on the right path. i think and decide for myself. i am not a blind obeyer, but to assume i don't listen is completely incorect.

If Scot is a bigshot mechanic and his own bird blew up, am i to suposed to conclude that a profesional mechanic is going to assure perfect safety? if anything it only shows that there are no guarantees no matter what you do.

 

[GyroRon]

Spacey, If you take the gyro apart, Clean and repaint all the tubing... Install the CLT kit.... all new Hardware.... Get a new set of proper sized blades.... Restore the prop, seat and instruments.... and get the engine Completely serviced - including new seals, gaskets, sandblast the exterior, etc.... - The engine, You will end up with a VERY Nice gyro and be into the thing for WAY WAY WAY less than you can buy any new gyro for.

A new Sportcopter is over 20 grand!

Didn't you get this gyro for free? I figure about 4-5 grand and it will be like new again and much better than it was when it was new.

The 532 isn't exactly a ticking time bomb of a engine, but it is a older Rotax... One based heavily on the sled version of that engine. There is only single ignition and that was troublesome, the crankshaft was prone to cracking in half, the rotary valve and water pump had issues etc... But the flip side is we know what the problems are and good shop can put this engine back together better than when it left the factory at Rotax new. I wouldn't be afraid to fly a 532 at all, but I would always keep a open landing zone under me at all times too.

Don't be discouraged, you are on the right path I think.

As for the CLT, again it is obviously not needed to insure that a safe flight can be made - your instructor proved that! But it does have lots of benifits. The gyro is more efficent, it is safer in that it won't be able to Bunt over, it handles better, and lastly... the gyro will be worth more in resale value with it. You will certainly recoup the investment in the CLT when the time to sell comes along.

The raising the seat idea is fine. If you really think about it that is all the CLT kit does. The CLT kit raises everything forward of the mast to keep the original airframe struture intact. But if you want to leave it low, you can and just raise the seat and flip the engine. That is still alot of work and may end up being more work than the bolt on kit Aircommand sells... Don't forget to raise the seat, you also got to raise the stick and underseat control system.

Alot of people learned to fly HTL gyros. I am one of them. Alot of people still fly HTL gyros too. But alot of people have also Bunted over and ended up dead in HTL gyros, and so far no one has been killed in a CLT machine from a Bunt over. That is why I made a CLT my only choice in gyros for me. I feel that the extra safety margin it provides is well worth any drawback the tallness adds.

If you restore your gyro and do it up right it would be easily worth $7500-8500 minimum. I know you see other older low rider aircommands advertised for that kind of price, but they aren't selling for that much except in rare cases.

 

[WindRyder06]

Joe,
I have done exactly what you are doing right now but 8 years ago. I bought an old Gen 1 AC and completely rebuilt it. I changed everything out, only two or three tubes were from the original machine. By the time I was finished I should have bought a new kit.

(I was a Helicopter pilot in the Army and before then I crewed the OH-58 Scout helicopters. I wanted to make sure that everything was 100% operational ready. Remember my ass was under this “Jesus Bolt”.)

If your project is going to cost close to the price of a new kit, get a new kit. There is a great looking Dominator Ultrawhite ready to fly right now posted on this site. The price is right!! All I am saying is please don’t take short cuts with this stuff. The odds are against you. I want to be able to meet you at the next fly-in and have a beer with you.

The 532 engine that you have is a bit peaky on the power. Some people loved that engine but Rotax got away from it for some reason…..

I am not trying to shoot holes in what you are doing, but the posts that I was reading sounded that you were going to do what you were going to do and be damned with the rest of the input. Sorry if I was reading somthing into what you were writing

Fly Safe,
Chris

 

[spaceman spiff]

Peace to you gentelmen.

One of the other options i'm considering is getting the 582 for the restored bird. Not cheap, but having dual sparks and smoother power is worth something.

Got the old bird towed home a few days ago. Possibly good news is the rotors are for 25 feet, not 29 like the guy insisted.

 

[GyroRon]

Either way the rotors are worth enough used to buy a new set of proper sized blades. If they were 29 footers, you would have new blades and change left over after selling them.

 

[spaceman spiff]

Did somebody say beer?!

 

[scottessex]

Spiff,
According to Rotax, any engine 5 years old, regardless of hours should be overhauled.
Last year Lockwood aviation did a buy-back program on older rotax's to get everyone upgraded, and get the old engines out of the system. I am not sure if this was a one time deal, but it might be worth looking into.
I just want anyone else to avoid some of the hassle that I went through.

 

[spaceman spiff]

Called Lockwood this morning. Current price for rebuild of a 532 is $2,600. I was a bit sleepy and felt a bit awkward asking about the status of a buy back, so i didn't ask. I would imagine if they were buying them back they would not be offering to rebuild them. Are you sure they were doing that?

for only 900 more i can get a 503 and only have to pay shipping one way, so basically the new 503 would only be about 700 more...

 

[scottessex]

I was down at Lockwood about 3 weeks ago, they are good people. Yes Rotax did do a buy back thing, but it must have been a one time deal, I was not sure if they were still doing it.
the reason they want you to rebuild after 5 years is that the ozone and UV deteriorate the rubber seals, as well as the intake sockets. The rubber becomes hardened and looses its pliability, the other reason is simply corrosion from ambient moisture on the bearings and crank.
You could tear the engine down and inspect it, then all you would be out is time.
If the engine happens to be clean (no corrosion) then you could get by with new seals and gaskets. Who knows? You living in Arizona, you may not have the problems with moisture that everyone else has. Here in Georgia, a piece of bare metal will start to rust in a matter of minutes in the summer because the humidity is so high.
If you do take it apart, make sure you mark the heads, and cylinders and pistons, so you can get them back together as a matched set.

 

[spaceman spiff]

Finnally awake, called again. Confirmed that the buy back program did happen, but is over. Asked what it was for, She said it was to encourage folks to get a new one with CDI ignition. they were offering 1000$ off tward a new one. Paying you a grand to dump the old?! Thats one heck of a statment.

Would the 503 (49 Horse power?) be more than enough for that bird and a 225 pound rider? would be nice to not have a radiator.

 

[GyroRon]

Spaceman, Here is some ideas to ponder.

1. Send Scott your engine for him to INSPECT and reassemble with all new seals and gaskets etc.... Also there is a aftermarket CDI igntion for that engine you could install if you wanted to. Scott is going in business as a Rotax certified repair station, and I am sure he would be VERY fair on the price with you.

I don't know that you will need all the things a full overhaul requires such as new pistons and crankshaft etc... So the overhaul cost may be half of what you were quoted or maybe even less....?

2. Sell the engine as is and use that money and the money you would spend on the rebuild to buy a nice used low time Rotax 582. Scott Hegar has a nearly brand new latest model 582 for sale - scott posts on the forum if you want to look him up - and I think he said the engine had only about 15 hours and he is asking somewhere between $3000-3500 including the E style Gearbox which has electric starting. Your old engine with gearbox would probably be worth close to $1000 as it sits as long as it isn't completely rusted out.

Forget the 503 on that machine with your weight. You would have to fly it at nearly wide open to fly and you would not be happy with the lack of reserve power. If your going to do this, do it right!

Personally I would be making Scott Hegar a deposit check out ASAP before he sells that 582 to someone else.

 

[spaceman spiff]

Thanks,

A slightly used 582 sounds like the thing for me.
Sent a note to Scott Hegar, to see if it is still for sale.

i'll leave the 532 alone for the moment.

Many thanks for the help.

 

[GyroRon]

Spiffmeister, Again don't let the 532 Scare you. If you fix it right, it is a decent engine.... But of course the 582 would be alot better.

I feel the CLT conversion is far more important than 532 verses 582...

 

[spaceman spiff]

Just watched the California Power Systems CD on rebuilding the 582. Learned a ton.

Do you have info on the CDI upgrade for the 532?

 

[spaceman spiff]

Looks like i just bought a 582.

Been thru a flood though. Wish me luck!

 

[StanFoster]

Spiff: To add what Ron said.....I had a 532 in my Air Command. It had a junk aftermarket ignition in it. I had 10 engine outs with it. Constant problems with the black box...and it just wasnt enjoyable to fly with.

The 532 produces about the same power...but it is peaky. The power comes on real hard and fast but not until around 6000 rpm's. While I was learning to fly my Air Command...this factor was the first thing I noticed as I did my first low flights down the runway. The motor would hit a certain rpm and then the power would just kick in hard. I switched to a 582 and noticed I had much more mid range power which made takeoffs easier. It never let me down in 120 hours put on it.

Outside of the dependability factor....the 582 also was able to fly down in the mid 5000's range and cruise. The 532 had to be revved up more to get it into its powerband.

Good luck with your 582...I am sure you will find it is a dependable and powerful engine.

Stan

 

[GyroRon]

Looks like i just bought a 582.

Been thru a flood though. Wish me luck!

I wouldn't worry too much about that. It was only flooded for a short short amount of time and scott dried it out immediately and had it running.

I used to own a Phantom Ultralight that I put on floats and long story short, the plane ended up sinking and the engine of course was under water for over a hour. When I got it out of the water I did what I could to drain the engine and the next day I got the plane back to the airport and tried to fire up the engine.. started on the 2nd pull and to this day - over 300 hours later and no overhauls - that engine is still running fine.

My only thing I would want, is for Scott to make sure he ran that engine for a hour or two and flushed the gearbox out a few times, after the flood. If he hasn't done that I would ask him to do so ASAP.

 

[spaceman spiff]

Don't flood waters have a lot of suspended grit? Thats the part i am worried about

Sounds like he did a pretty good job of flushing it, but I am wondering if it wouldn't be wise to tear it down anyway to make sure it is clean before i try to fly it?

Thanks for the heads up Stan.

This is really shapping up to be a quite a water-damage thread isn't it?! rain water in the RV fluid, a dunked ultralight on floats, condensation, a flood...