Vance Breese Mentone 2020

fara

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Guys:
At Sun N Fun, the aircraft that is to be flown for a vendor at the fly-in or airshow has to be given a sticker before being allowed to fly from the field. That sticker denotes that fly-in staff have come over, looked it over and checked its paperwork to be in order. This has been done for over a decade at Sun N Fun, Sebring Expo and more recently at Deland Expo etc.
 

Greg Vos

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available on Youtube too

Great and to the point informative, no agenda here in these videos just a gentle reminder of basics and great to get follow up info on accidents 👍
 

hillberg

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Sorry Ben I thought it was rhetorical and I didn't reply as by Oct 24th when you asked I thought had that been the case that riddle would have been solved. Do I understand? I assume you are making a nod towards FAR Part 103 and no doubt with 103.7 peoples approach to flying such aircraft becomes increasingly cautious. From John's response in post 130 I suspect it is academic in this case?

To John's points its clear there is sensitivity around reconciliation of the issues and others are trying to make the case that this is all about the God-damn paperwork and commies. Hoist the flag. Good grief it is unbelievable. You do have regulation in the US, even FAR Part 103 lays down regulation.

For whatever the reason, the aircraft hadn't gone through the process it should have [process read regulation]. It wasn't known about because nobody checked. The tide went out when the aircraft got pranged mainly because of a lack of training / familiarity on the aircraft and a overly keen attitude to get into the air. All those things are dangerous and have killed more than many people in the past. It common aviation parlance its called a lack of airmanship.

Airmanship from our friends wikipedia:-

"A review paper presented at a NATO research and training symposium on military aviation human factors defined airmanship as "a personal state that enables aircrew to exercise sound judgment, display uncompromising flight discipline and demonstrate skillful control of an aircraft and a situation. It is maintained by continuous self-improvement and a desire to perform optimally at all times." Combining modern academic and industry definitions, it's accepted now that airmanship is a multi-dimensional concept involving skilful control of an aircraft, making good decisions about the flight, and is tightly linked to flight discipline"

Keep safe.
We are not in the military - FAA levels of safety pt 121, pt 135,pt 91 are all levels of risk management to the non participating public.

The owner is responsible party to the maintenance of the aircraft. Not the pilot not the mechanic not the IA holder Not the event holder

and all standards of the FAA are MINIMUM STANDARDS - NATO is a waste of an organization "The Russians are coming FILL OUT THE FORMS!"

Your example is comparing Hand Grenades to Cumquats - Aviation came 1st. Not the regulations get it straight man...
 

All_In

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Guys:
At Sun N Fun, the aircraft that is to be flown for a vendor at the fly-in or airshow has to be given a sticker before being allowed to fly from the field. That sticker denotes that fly-in staff have come over, looked it over and checked its paperwork to be in order. This has been done for over a decade at Sun N Fun, Sebring Expo and more recently at Deland Expo etc.
Hi Abid, I have never been to Sun and Fun.

Some questions.
Do they inspect all paperwork for all aircraft flying in?
How many volunteers or paid employees do they have to check all the aircraft flying in and out?
As you know we provide a different color dot to pilots that are flying at our event after they have a pilot briefing each day. Even if they were checked out and heard the briefing the last 4 prior days they have to have a new briefing and new color dot to fly.
 
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hillberg

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Hi Abid, I have never been to Sun and Fun.

Some questions.
Do they inspect all paperwork for all aircraft flying in?
How many volunteers or paid employees do they have to check all the aircraft flying in and out?
As you know we provide a different color dot to pilots that are flying at our event after they have a pilot briefing each day. Even if they were checked out and heard the briefing the last 4 prior days they are supposed to have a dot.
Demonstration pilots and aircraft - If you want to fly demos they check the basics pilot cert & Medical - Aircraft the limitations (the FAA issued limits and Special type certificate) You get the briefing and that is all. No log books either end nada. As for the sticker everyone gets them even those walking through the gate (Advertising and nothing more)
 

Philbennett

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How dare you suggest we inspect the paperwork more than you do.
How do you know that is it not the exact same percentage of all American gyroplane owners do not follow 1-5).
Having an unregistered gyroplane fly and have an accident has never happened before at any of PRA chapter fly-in either in the last ten years since I've been attending!

Let's examine the evidence and call a space a spade.
Your country does not inspect at fly-ins either
and You have no solution for what you could have or should have done differently
your last attempt to be right is your pompous attitude that you Brits are superior in registering their aircraft.

Only common sense answer for your posts right from the start = You and Greg have or had a vendetta against Vance and now your arguments have proven baseless without a solution. Your true indent is busted my friend and we all now know the reality.
Gee's get over it. Forgiveness would have saved you the embarrassment of your feeble complaints about a problem that has only occurred once in the last 50 fly-in around the country in the last 10 years. Rebel without a cause!

Just relax yourself. There is no racism here and lets not add to the distraction by trying to make it UK v USA.

As Fara just highlighted to you the process of eminent good sense and just to add some clarity for UK events. Fly-ins UK style are not the mass Oshkosh or Sun 'n Fun type meetings in the main, simply because we are a tiny little island. A fly in for us is a mere gathering of like minded individuals and there are no pleasure flying just owner/drivers if you like landing, having a natter and a cup of tea and going home at the end of the day. In that context there is little to check because not much happens.

If however you go to a bigger event, for example the LAA (light aircraft association) fly in and then offer pleasure flights then you will sign to agree to T&C's that include your aircraft is all that it needs to be.

I would also draw your attention to the CAA "ginfo" site (link here) https://siteapps.caa.co.uk/g-info/

If you visit that site anyone can instantly check the validity of a variety of metrics on the aircraft. Instantly. Which includes the permit validity period and that it is insured.

Not one of my posts to Phil was I defending or answering for Vance, Greg, he right off the batt started going after Vance by attacking what PRA should have done to turn him in. when that didn't work he switched to attacking PRA and me personally.

I'm defending PRA. First, read how PRA should have called it major damage, from everyone who wasn't there.
Then it was PRA should have turned Vance and everyone involved in.
Read how PRA covered it up. PRA has never called the FAA for any of the accidents. They call us.
Read how inept we were in handling it. But he has no better solution other than to imply in his country we would have to check the paperwork.
Read how he implied we were negligent and liable for not asking for paperwork.
I call BS, the FAA looked into it and all of his complaints are about what PRA should have done. Where are your logical complaints about Vance in the last 20 pages from Phil? I've only defended Phil's continued condemnation of PRA and my actions solely because he has a vendetta against Vance and my explaining the FAA did has not what Phil had hoped of a public hanging. Somehow PRA is to blame in Phil's mind.

I don't think you are on anyones side John but you have started to become emotive with the suggestion of vendetta! I mean to even suggest that when I am just making a valid critique on a woeful lack of airmanship is the exact point I'm making.

Look its an opinion and I get you are being the nice guy because you actually deal with the individuals and so on but in playing things down, in suggesting its a one off, in suggesting that the paperwork makes no difference then don't you see that sends a message? You are playing the whole thing down and it was a woeful piece of airmanship on all sides.

Your problem is instead of just saying yes this shouldn't have happened and we will look at ways to ensure similar doesn't happen again, you lash out at the person spit balling the obvious snag and claim there is now a vendetta against the pilot. Are you literally insane? I don't know the guy, I have little likelihood of meeting the guy, I've no real interest in him, the aircraft, the aircrafts owner. I'm just saying "hey all these things that kill you... these are the holes in the cheese that can line up.."
 

All_In

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Great and to the point informative, no agenda here in these videos just a gentle reminder of basics and great to get follow up info on accidents 👍
It is an excellent learning example and that is the silver lining I look for, in life!!!
What PRA will now add to our briefing and teach the public is to
  1. Teach pilots it is their personal responsibility to check the paperwork of aircraft they test-fly or borrow.
  2. Teach that if the throttle quadrant is different than what you have training/experience with to practice taxiing until you have mastered it.
  3. If you use your helmet in a borrowed aircraft it may take several minutes of TESTING with multiple radio check requests while taxiing to assure that it will not cut out while flying. This actually happened to me once years ago in a FW I bought for the dealership. It worked on the ground and the take-off but could not hear anything at about 200 feet off the deck. I waggled my wings all around the reentered pattern and they gave me a green light to land.
  4. We have been teaching the FAA ASRS forgiveness program Jon shared. ASRS - Aviation Safety Reporting System - Electronic Report Submission
  5. But did not think of suggesting using it in this incident and that is where I fell I failed personally as a PRA representative and I will try and do better in the future at all of the above.
BTW, that is what I've observed that is what Vance has been teaching since it happened from what I've seen and heard.
 
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WaspAir

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In the UK however there is a collected sense of responsibility which aligns with a notion that everyone is better served if we do the right thing.
That attitude is not rare in U.S. general aviation. It is especially easy to see in club operations, in my experience, where a safety culture is strongly maintained. It is particularly intense in my glider club where our interdependence upon mutual support for even the most basic operations is unavoidable.
 

All_In

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Just relax yourself. There is no racism here and lets not add to the distraction by trying to make it UK v USA.

As Fara just highlighted to you the process of eminent good sense and just to add some clarity for UK events. Fly-ins UK style are not the mass Oshkosh or Sun 'n Fun type meetings in the main, simply because we are a tiny little island. A fly in for us is a mere gathering of like minded individuals and there are no pleasure flying just owner/drivers if you like landing, having a natter and a cup of tea and going home at the end of the day. In that context there is little to check because not much happens.

If however you go to a bigger event, for example the LAA (light aircraft association) fly in and then offer pleasure flights then you will sign to agree to T&C's that include your aircraft is all that it needs to be.

I would also draw your attention to the CAA "ginfo" site (link here) https://siteapps.caa.co.uk/g-info/

If you visit that site anyone can instantly check the validity of a variety of metrics on the aircraft. Instantly. Which includes the permit validity period and that it is insured.



I don't think you are on anyones side John but you have started to become emotive with the suggestion of vendetta! I mean to even suggest that when I am just making a valid critique on a woeful lack of airmanship is the exact point I'm making.

Look its an opinion and I get you are being the nice guy because you actually deal with the individuals and so on but in playing things down, in suggesting its a one off, in suggesting that the paperwork makes no difference then don't you see that sends a message? You are playing the whole thing down and it was a woeful piece of airmanship on all sides.

Your problem is instead of just saying yes this shouldn't have happened and we will look at ways to ensure similar doesn't happen again, you lash out at the person spit balling the obvious snag and claim there is now a vendetta against the pilot. Are you literally insane? I don't know the guy, I have little likelihood of meeting the guy, I've no real interest in him, the aircraft, the aircrafts owner. I'm just saying "hey all these things that kill you... these are the holes in the cheese that can line up.."
My friend that you have it out to get Vance and anyone you perceive as supporting him even just the messenger is no longer debatable in my opinion.
I understand, Vance argued with you in threads in the past and your angry and now Like Gerg paying him back. I've argued with Vance exactly the same 3 or 4 times at least.
The major difference between the way Vance and I have forgiveness for the other we realize to have different options is normal and there was no real reason to forgive him as we both paid nothing for the other's opinion.
I do not care if I'm right only wish to learn the truth through tough debate with Vance and others at times.

I've given as well as I've received with Vance and he does not hate me either. He has helped PRA/me the day after the argument.
Bro, I'm not angry at you for attacking me or PRA now that I understand your motives it makes perfect sense. But I'm only the messenger for what PRA saw and did and what the FAA ruled supported what PRA observed it was a hard landing. Then you started all over again attacking the messenger of TRUTH.
But stop picking on me when you offer no help and change at least 3 or 4 we should-haves. It's changed from PRA should claim it was major damage need to file an accident report to we should have turned them all in, to your latest excuse how it PRA fault. It's the owner's and pilots' fault and PRA does not want to check paperwork any more than the FAA, or the EAA does at fly-ins.

Phil PRA is the only messenger, I talked to the FAA and ask him how could PRA manage it better. I asked him to come next year a present a seminar of his choice. He chose to teach the forgiveness program Jon shared and that the FAA is a friend, not a foe, and the FAA in almost all cases only asks to fly with an instructor reteaching the areas where you broke the law no matter how aggrieves.
 
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All_In

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That attitude is not rare in U.S. general aviation. It is especially easy to see in club operations, in my experience, where a safety culture is strongly maintained. It is particularly intense in my glider club where our interdependence upon mutual support for even the most basic operations is unavoidable.
Jon that is the same attitude at all of the PRA chapters fly-ins I've attended. I get at least 1 or 2 complaints about pilots nonsafe flying in their opinion. I have to go talk to the pilot in every case. Often there are two stories where I must go back and request the other pilot come in person and discuss it all 3 together. 1/3 of the time the complainer does not want to do that only report it anonymously and hang the pilot without a hearing from both sides
We have suspended pilots.
Consider that at our fly-in there are at least 10 Phil's some with personal grudges. Others are people I swear are looking to complain or show how much they know and what a great in the stands while they are safely on the ground pilots they are.

Poor Ron Awad was the most abused. Often by the CFI that trained him and used to fly the same way himself. Ron used to get beat up so much for flying on the edge of the flight envelope as they all said pilots will kill themselves copying his maneuvers. Part of it was jealousy plain and simple.
I have seen few pilots even try to learn most of those maneuvers and the few that do they are lazy maneuvers which means they are not at the edge of the envelope.
Most were hypocrites as all of those same pilots would rave years later about the Red Bulls team doing even more aggressive gyroplane maneuvers as being so cool and teaching what a gyro will do. Which is what they were criticizing Ron Awad for doing. Human nature is easy to understand if you try.
 
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fara

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Hi Abid, I have never been to Sun and Fun.

Some questions.
Do they inspect all paperwork for all aircraft flying in?
How many volunteers or paid employees do they have to check all the aircraft flying in and out?
As you know we provide a different color dot to pilots that are flying at our event after they have a pilot briefing each day. Even if they were checked out and heard the briefing the last 4 prior days they are supposed to have a dot.

No not all aircraft flying in. Just the ones flown by vendors or at vendor booths that will be flying during the fly-in
 

fara

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Just relax yourself. There is no racism here and lets not add to the distraction by trying to make it UK v USA.

As Fara just highlighted to you the process of eminent good sense and just to add some clarity for UK events. Fly-ins UK style are not the mass Oshkosh or Sun 'n Fun type meetings in the main, simply because we are a tiny little island. A fly in for us is a mere gathering of like minded individuals and there are no pleasure flying just owner/drivers if you like landing, having a natter and a cup of tea and going home at the end of the day. In that context there is little to check because not much happens.

If however you go to a bigger event, for example the LAA (light aircraft association) fly in and then offer pleasure flights then you will sign to agree to T&C's that include your aircraft is all that it needs to be.

Phil PRA Mentone is not that big of an event like Oshkosh or Sun N Fun or even Sebring.
It really is like the events you are talking about where like minded individuals gather to have a little fun. Gyroplanes are niche within a niche in the US
 

fara

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Demonstration pilots and aircraft - If you want to fly demos they check the basics pilot cert & Medical - Aircraft the limitations (the FAA issued limits and Special type certificate) You get the briefing and that is all. No log books either end nada. As for the sticker everyone gets them even those walking through the gate (Advertising and nothing more)

No. They check AROW (Airworthiness Cert, Registration, Operating Limitations and Weight and Balance) are present in the aircraft not just check pilot cert and/or medical. Briefing etc. is for the pilot(s) that will fly demos etc. at the show but the machine gets a separate check.
 

Martin W.

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Guys:
At Sun N Fun, the aircraft that is to be flown for a vendor at the fly-in or airshow has to be given a sticker before being allowed to fly from the field. That sticker denotes that fly-in staff have come over, looked it over and checked its paperwork to be in order. This has been done for over a decade at Sun N Fun, Sebring Expo and more recently at Deland Expo etc.
fara .... I like your posts (very much) , I like you , and I like your company and your aircraft.
I also think the cautions implemented at Sun and Fun are a good idea ... it is all about safety.

However a person can turn that whole thing on its ear by doing the following:
google ....... "crash at Sun and Fun"
google ....... "accident at Sun and Fun"

Plenty of them , and unfortunately many were fatal to pilots and spectators. I wish that was not true. I know you always focus on safety fara and we all thank you very much.
 

BEN S

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Phil, I have followed this thread since the beginning, I do not see any vendetta in your posts or animosity.
John seems to be throttleing back some and thats good.
Your questioning the environment of HOW this could have happened is a valid point and one we all need to consider. I find that some of the most hazardous situations I have been in happened at fly-ins!
The three "C's" will bite you!
I was asking about the weight of the aircraft because our part 103 would require no license on the part of the pilot or aircraft!
I did not know if you had a similar exemption in the UK.
It is entirely Vances fault this happened. NO ONE ELSES!!
If there were to have been more serious consequences and the NTSB or FAA were called in, they would have chalked it up to pilot error....period. doesn't matter if the owner didnt get it registered or the PRA didnt check it out first.
This is how things are done here.
Guys put a nail in this one, there is but one person who could have ANYTHING to add to it and he is being quiet over what he had already said.
Are there lessons to be learned here? Yup.
Is one of those lessons "shit happens"
Yup....move on. Fly safe. And if this makes Vance a better CFI good it will filter down to his students.
I have always said I would rather fly with a pilot who has had an accident then one who is waiting to....
 

All_In

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Phil, I have followed this thread since the beginning, I do not see any vendetta in your posts or animosity.
John seems to be throttleing back some and thats good.
Your questioning the environment of HOW this could have happened is a valid point and one we all need to consider. I find that some of the most hazardous situations I have been in happened at fly-ins!
The three "C's" will bite you!
I was asking about the weight of the aircraft because our part 103 would require no license on the part of the pilot or aircraft!
I did not know if you had a similar exemption in the UK.
It is entirely Vances fault this happened. NO ONE ELSES!!
If there were to have been more serious consequences and the NTSB or FAA were called in, they would have chalked it up to pilot error....period. doesn't matter if the owner didnt get it registered or the PRA didnt check it out first.
This is how things are done here.
Guys put a nail in this one, there is but one person who could have ANYTHING to add to it and he is being quiet over what he had already said.
Are there lessons to be learned here? Yup.
Is one of those lessons "shit happens"
Yup....move on. Fly safe. And if this makes Vance a better CFI good it will filter down to his students.
I have always said I would rather fly with a pilot who has had an accident then one who is waiting to....
Well, it is times like this that I truly want to just quit. not sure you are worth the effort? I'm so tired of the Phil's!!

I wish he was attacking and blaming you, Ben!
 
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All_In

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I give up. If Phil is correct then it was PRA's fault and I should resign for my failure.
 
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All_In

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I will recommend only posting to contact PRA's attorney from now on
Keep all first-hand knowledge to the board members to create training programs as we now do.

That will avoid providing evidence of PRA's negligence, as I provided Phil to sue us in this case.

Example of what I recommend the persons who take over for me only share and post from now on and nothing else.

What PRA will now add to our briefing and teach the public is to
  1. Teach pilots it is their personal responsibility to check the paperwork of aircraft they test-fly or borrow.
  2. Teach that if the throttle quadrant is different than what you have training/experience with to practice taxiing until you have mastered it.
  3. If you use your helmet in a borrowed aircraft it may take several minutes of TESTING with multiple radio check requests while taxiing to assure that it will not cut out while flying.
  4. When transiting to a different category ride have a CFI/pilot/owner familiar with the aircraft on the ground with radios you have tested to tell when your flaring too high and to go around, or increase airspeed etc.
  5. We have been teaching the FAA ASRS forgiveness program Jon shared. ASRS - Aviation Safety Reporting System - Electronic Report Submission
  6. But did not think of suggesting using it in this incident and that is where I fell I failed personally as a PRA representative and I will try and do better in the future at all of the above.

.
 
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hillberg

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No. They check AROW (Airworthiness Cert, Registration, Operating Limitations and Weight and Balance) are present in the aircraft not just check pilot cert and/or medical. Briefing etc. is for the pilot(s) that will fly demos etc. at the show but the machine gets a separate check.
Been there 4 times same stuff You brought the items to the tent. Not once did they look at the machine. Get briefed daily and out the door.
 

anthom

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Been there 4 times same stuff You brought the items to the tent. Not once did they look at the machine. Get briefed daily and out the door.
That is exactly how it was done when I took part in the Angelina County Air Show in 2018. The FAA checked my aircraft paperwork and my Pilot Certificate (sport, so no medical). No machine check. There was the detailed briefing and off we went to do our demo.
 
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