US gyoplane paranoia

BEN S

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Hey Tom..

Hey Tom..

Long time no talk..How you doin?
I don't have any problem with a manufacturer defending his designs, I have a major problem with his attitude toward American pilots and there attempt to better a product.
Ben S
 

getut

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I must defend Raphael a little.
I have not yet met any gyro manufacturer that encourages modification of "their" design.
Bensen, Fetters, Brock, Boyette, Vanek, Hollman are some that come to mind. Jerry Barnett got his hackle up when I asked him about landing gear weakness and denied any such weakness. (in spite of several roll-overs)
I have many more anecdotes of this nature.
Tom, Even from the small amount of time that I have been in gyros, I agree with you that they are not exactly **happy** about any modifications to their design.

BUT... with that said, at least in every discussion that I have ever heard where Ernie is involved, he listens intently and will give you his honest mind on what you present to him whether it be good OR bad. He will also tell you flat out that in the implementation phase, whether you pull it off well or not is all on you. I suspect most other US vendors will have the same mind set.

No one could ask for or expect any more than that.

Honest, respectful feedback is what people need and what they will be thankful for. It is some of the best marketing anyone can do in any business.
 

choppergabor

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Oh Robert I can totally agree with that! The costumer service in most of the ex eastern bloc countries are just like this! (some says it's coming here too soon.....) If you have a problem with their product it is certainly your fault 99% of the time. And if you want to have them fix it....well good luck. You can't return a brand new wash machine after 7 days. Oh yeah and you'd better have the original box!!! My niece just had that kind of experience. :) Oh boy. So it is really a mentality issue with them. I guess a cultural thing. Not your typical capitalistic system that is consumer driven. It's just manifesting itself more open in a smaller environment like the forum.
 

PW_Plack

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A problem with a product is an opportunity for a manufacturer. Handling it honestly and fairly, exceeding the customer's expectations, creates good will which cannot be bought. (HKS comes to mind in its handling of early engine cooling issues.)

If, however, I'm told, "we've never heard of this problem before," and it turns out you have, sorry...we're done.

Didn't a Canadian kitmaker (which subsequently folded) become famous for this at one point with fiberglass rotorblades?
 

RotorTom

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Don't miss the point ...

Don't miss the point ...

THE MAIN PROBLEM WITH CELIER is NOT that he dislikes our modifications. Who cares? We love them.

THE MAIN PROBLEM IS THIS: HE CONTINUALLY DENIES PROBLEMS AND DOES NOT SHARE INFORMATION CRITICAL TO SAFETY UNTIL HE IS FORCED TO BY OWNERS TALKING TO EACH OTHER.

I provided the owners website because we could NOT depend on him to share information.

RAPHAEL HAS OUT AND OUT LIED TO ME ABOUT PROBLEMS I EXPERIENCED SAYING THAT I WAS THE ONLY ONE.

Our owners site pisses him off because we talk to each other and can refute his lies.

That is why he wants to start a new owners site. Can you imagine what information that site would publish?

What Raphael needs to realize is that we LOVE the Xenon. It is superior. But he doesn't have a clue about customer service and honesty.

He should stay in the design room and shut up in public. He needs to repair the company's public image or people will stop buying no matter how nice the product.

Maybe it's time Artur comments since he if the real money behind Raphael anyway.
 

Heron

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Whoa Nelly!!!
Now you guys got me thinking . . . (joke away) :D
Are those mods extremely necessary or an improvement? As we all know, every subsequent machine will be improved, rigth?
Hey Stan
Thanks for the diplomatic effort, but if I may add, poor choice of awards there, Kovacs sound more like some neighboor of Vlad The Impaler . . .stakes, belly and hearts makes me shiver . . . :D
Me and Gabor communicate by osmosis . . .
Chuck is right, people don´t realize some stuff they have for granted, came from USA, my Mom always say the same, they stole our music . . .nonsense!
RAF´s would still sell with all the efforts from our Forum experts to warn people, some even got stuborn and got burned . . .literally!
You should see Larry´s blue eyes when you say the words: I think there is a problem with . . . and before you finish there comes the Jedi Saber, woommmm!!!! :D
It is all ok, no big deal on any side, really . . .
Heron
 

RotorTom

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Seriously Heron, that Brazilian hooch must be good stuff.
 

Heron

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Not really, there are some pretty light stuff around!
The hydroponic tea is the best you can find and they have no nationality.
I hope by now you guys realized what you are doing and mellow out a bit, my son says it best:
- Dad, where all this "certainty" comes from?
Happiness is the control of our frustrations. . . think about it!
Heron
 

animal

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Hum,a company that does not want to listen to it's customers on safety or comfort mods... where have I heard this before?

Oh yeah I remember that of the so sleek and pretty Bunt-O-Matic
 

Attachments

gyroplanes

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Fiberglass blade problems? RAF? You guys can bash away on RAF. Every RAF customer I knew (many) had nothing but good to say about RAF's customer service.
RAF continuously upgraded the machine and issued service bulletins about safety issues.

RAF did shun the NCLT issue, but they were not alone in shunning the NCLT issue. Several manufacturers would hear nothing of it.
Many still do.
But, CLT issues aside, can you name a more professional gyro kit or plans manufacturer and show example? EVER?
I'm not familiar enough with Magni or it's clones.... but I'd like to discuss this to help improve the breed across the board.
 

dick

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Good One...........I Think

Good One...........I Think

Put lipstick on a hog and what do you have?
I think that one musta went over my head....What do you have Chuck??? Cuz we gota lata lonely pig farmers around these parts......Dick
 

C. Beaty

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Ask Heron. He can explain it to you better than I can with his new found articulacy.
 
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Heron

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That´s what I said, strong words kinda go overboard while trying to reposition stances.
Xenon is a good machine, it can be great, just give them some time.
Xenon Tom is about do get another nick, it seems . . .
RAF got on the down side and could not fly out of it.
Heron
 

StanFoster

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Any further argument from either side just causes loss of respect and further divides our community here. No wonder we are so fragmented.



Stan
 

Dmorris

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I currently own a 2015 CarbonCub. I have owned a 2013 Carbon Cub, 2 RAF 2000's, Xenon, A36 & several
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Any further argument from either side just causes loss of respect and further divides our community here. No wonder we are so fragmented.



Stan
I agree with Stan 100%! I don't dare reccomend this site to anyone and that's sad. Heck the only reason I've been on the last few days is out of morbid curiosity.
 
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Hi everyone,

The lies and stupid attitude of the Tom, using his superiority as a "famous"radio or television trouble maker, turned me on, for sure. Thus, i am like the duck, all his bad words do simply slide on me without much effect. Because i am at the controls of this company, what ever he says (and he does not have a clue of our organization here).
So his tries to discredit me are so...childish.

I shall then repeat:

Yes we do service our people
Yes we do support them (at least the ones asking for it)
Yes we do listen all the time to all (smart and kind) remarks
Yes we keep improving permanently
Yes we are back in the USA (isn't that the best proof ?)
Yes we will have a new Xenon owner website, but NOT operated by us definitely as Tom try to say...No comments.
So please, let us work in peace, as i read, yes our community is fragmented, yes this forum is wonderful for info exchange. I am only disapointed of Tom's attacks repeatidly.I would have expected more from such an educated person...
I dont care you dont like me Tom. Simply respect the work behind the Xenon. You are of course free to paint it flashy pink, make any mods you want without any consultation of the mother company, it is just not smart. Think of reversing the roles...??? Your reactions would be a million times worse.

I would like to thanks all our supporters in the USA, and for all the prizes we got there, this is touching the heart definitely. Thanks and honnor to mister Bensen, otherwise, we would probably not exist.
As being back in the USA very soon, we shall do our very best through our dedicated and experienced people there, to provide the service you expect.

For the best of all, for the pleasure to fly gyros, i salute all.
 

HESulzer

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Thought on US gyroplane paranoia

Thought on US gyroplane paranoia

Rational common sense would dictate that any gyroplane design that has a proven and safe hjstory was designed by a quailfied engineer to meet the required specifications for safe durable constuction and operation. Any deviation and or modification has a 100% chance of resulting in dangerous and hazardous results. Only fools dare tread in such a manner.

That being said, I am looking for an unused/unmodified set of plans for a Barnett J4B2. Please contact me at [email protected].
 

RotorTom

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I agree with Stan 100%! I don't dare reccomend this site to anyone and that's sad. Heck the only reason I've been on the last few days is out of morbid curiosity.
You know David,

Of all people I am surprised that you find this thread "morbid".

The issues and information presented are of extreme value. And you know our owners site has been of extreme value in getting owners to communicate.

The issue has never been "morbid" insults. The issue has never been "modifications". Anyone can modify their experimental aircraft.

The issue is factory response to problems. In the beginning there was no response until owners started communicating with each other. I have history and a host of owners that attest to that.

I have never disputed the value of the design. I have never disputed the superiority of the Xenon. But I will not sit by when a company treats people like crap and looks down their noses at customers.

I have been through these battles before. And there is never a negative outcome to shining a light on business practices. Those who do great work love it ... and those who don't run like cockroaches from the light.
 
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