US gyoplane paranoia
- Thread starter PTKay
- Start date
RotorTom
Member
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2008
- Messages
- 847
- Location
- Colorado
- Aircraft
- Enstrom 480B, CTLS, Ercoupe
- Total Flight Time
- 5000+
Two titles
Two titles
We can now add to Raphael's title. He is Arrogant and a LIAR.
Your post is so inaccurate, I will not waste my time going through it point by point. But to say the Sport Copter prerorator is crap and the throttle splitter from Lockwood is junk ... is just plain wrong.
You are the worst of the worst when it comes to business people. You treat owners like garbage. You have no sense of customer support and you continually belittle ideas unless you think of them.
In a word: YOU SUCK.
I have the benefit of listening to owners too. And I hear the stories. Wanna bet that there are more owners who dislike you than like you? Why is that?
Examine yourself. Then do yourself a favor. Remove yourself from the day-to-day operations you arrogant fool! Let Artur deal with us. He is kind and open-minded.
Those who have followed the progress of the Xenon, those who read our owners website and those who have personal experience with you know you are an arrogant liar and an a-hole.
I am arrogant only when it comes to helping people. My career speaks for itself. I have been doing it for a long time.
Two titles
We can now add to Raphael's title. He is Arrogant and a LIAR.
Your post is so inaccurate, I will not waste my time going through it point by point. But to say the Sport Copter prerorator is crap and the throttle splitter from Lockwood is junk ... is just plain wrong.
You are the worst of the worst when it comes to business people. You treat owners like garbage. You have no sense of customer support and you continually belittle ideas unless you think of them.
In a word: YOU SUCK.
I have the benefit of listening to owners too. And I hear the stories. Wanna bet that there are more owners who dislike you than like you? Why is that?
Examine yourself. Then do yourself a favor. Remove yourself from the day-to-day operations you arrogant fool! Let Artur deal with us. He is kind and open-minded.
Those who have followed the progress of the Xenon, those who read our owners website and those who have personal experience with you know you are an arrogant liar and an a-hole.
I am arrogant only when it comes to helping people. My career speaks for itself. I have been doing it for a long time.
RotorTom
Member
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2008
- Messages
- 847
- Location
- Colorado
- Aircraft
- Enstrom 480B, CTLS, Ercoupe
- Total Flight Time
- 5000+
I wish you well with your US plans. We need support here in the country. As far as an owners website ... have at it. Imagine a site run by you for owners! With your track record it will be like the Communist Party hosting a freedom website for the Chinese.
ms80831
PRA member since 1973
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2008
- Messages
- 1,546
- Location
- Colorado Springs CO.
- Aircraft
- Cessna 210 +, Xenon RST, Citabria
- Total Flight Time
- 2000+
Dear Raphael
I said it before and I will say it again. You build a great product. It is the only 2 place gyro that performs well at gross weight in the high density altitude environment of the Colorado Pikes Peak Region.
BUT, you really need to re evaluate the value of having 10 experimental US machines available for innovations. We can (and do) try things that make your great product even more pleasing to use. I added an electric trim. It adds to my flying pleasure and adds only a few pounds. I understand that the EU weight restriction is 450 KG. Other countries including the US have a higher weight limit and would benefit from some options that might not fit the lower weight requirement.
I also acknowledge that I didn't design the trim mechanical components, I used off the shelf parts. I am sure you could make a better one. Please do.
We US Xenon owners are not your adversaries. We are your biggest fans in this entire country. Xenon Tom included. He never fails to acknowledge that the Xenon is a superior machine.
HOWEVER, user feedback from real world problems, (and solutions suggested) are a source of information that can have a positive effect on your product. You already admit you do take suggestions, improve on them and incorporate them. So why begrudge your owners a Thank You for making you aware of a problem, or if you were aware, confirming an issue.
You do yourself and your product no service in the tone of the replies you give on this worldwide public forum.
Tom is a professional consumer advocate with a long running program on regional radio and television. He can be provocative and even arrogant, and it harms him very little.
You however as the president and designer of a small foreign aviation company, do not enjoy the luxury of such talk. Every time he tweaks you into displaying what appears to the readers here as an arrogant or immature attitude, you lose far more than your opponent.
Please make sure your emotions are in check and your brain is engaged before you hit the send button.
I gladly include myself in your list of Xenon friends and supporters.
Mark Shook
I said it before and I will say it again. You build a great product. It is the only 2 place gyro that performs well at gross weight in the high density altitude environment of the Colorado Pikes Peak Region.
BUT, you really need to re evaluate the value of having 10 experimental US machines available for innovations. We can (and do) try things that make your great product even more pleasing to use. I added an electric trim. It adds to my flying pleasure and adds only a few pounds. I understand that the EU weight restriction is 450 KG. Other countries including the US have a higher weight limit and would benefit from some options that might not fit the lower weight requirement.
I also acknowledge that I didn't design the trim mechanical components, I used off the shelf parts. I am sure you could make a better one. Please do.
We US Xenon owners are not your adversaries. We are your biggest fans in this entire country. Xenon Tom included. He never fails to acknowledge that the Xenon is a superior machine.
HOWEVER, user feedback from real world problems, (and solutions suggested) are a source of information that can have a positive effect on your product. You already admit you do take suggestions, improve on them and incorporate them. So why begrudge your owners a Thank You for making you aware of a problem, or if you were aware, confirming an issue.
You do yourself and your product no service in the tone of the replies you give on this worldwide public forum.
Tom is a professional consumer advocate with a long running program on regional radio and television. He can be provocative and even arrogant, and it harms him very little.
You however as the president and designer of a small foreign aviation company, do not enjoy the luxury of such talk. Every time he tweaks you into displaying what appears to the readers here as an arrogant or immature attitude, you lose far more than your opponent.
Please make sure your emotions are in check and your brain is engaged before you hit the send button.
I gladly include myself in your list of Xenon friends and supporters.
Mark Shook
drtomcor
Newbie
My first post. I don't know a lot about gyros yet.
I once read a quote from the chairman of Archer Daniels Midland, the soybean giant, "Our customers are our enemies, our competitors are our friends".
I think that even in the small world of gyros, this can happen.
I once read a quote from the chairman of Archer Daniels Midland, the soybean giant, "Our customers are our enemies, our competitors are our friends".
I think that even in the small world of gyros, this can happen.
BEN S
Active Member
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2007
- Messages
- 2,328
- Location
- YUMA,AZ
- Aircraft
- Sportcopter Vortex "light"
- Total Flight Time
- 200+
Wow...
Wow...
I have travelled in France and met many French people and frankly I am NOT suprised at all to hear you talk down to us lowly Americans. It seems to be a national pastime, but I guess it's just in your nature. I noticed that you type in English very well for someone that might just as well have been taught German at an early age were it not for some dumb American idiots who decided to meddle in YOUR countries affairs.
As a buisnessman myself....your a "Tete Merde"! Why on gods green earth would you attempt to insult and disparage an entire sector of possible sales?
As for you thinking your going to open an "American" subsidiary? Good F**kin luck! If I was Sportcopter or Butterfly or any other american made gyro company I would paste your rude response to the front page of my website with a question, "Do you really want to give these guys your money?"
I am possibly looking at a two place enclosed in the far off future and you sir just made those plans a little easier.
I would like to offer you a position as a marketing and advertising specialist at my competitors gun shop in Yuma. Seriously, please consider this offer.
Ben S
Wow...
I have travelled in France and met many French people and frankly I am NOT suprised at all to hear you talk down to us lowly Americans. It seems to be a national pastime, but I guess it's just in your nature. I noticed that you type in English very well for someone that might just as well have been taught German at an early age were it not for some dumb American idiots who decided to meddle in YOUR countries affairs.
As a buisnessman myself....your a "Tete Merde"! Why on gods green earth would you attempt to insult and disparage an entire sector of possible sales?
As for you thinking your going to open an "American" subsidiary? Good F**kin luck! If I was Sportcopter or Butterfly or any other american made gyro company I would paste your rude response to the front page of my website with a question, "Do you really want to give these guys your money?"
I am possibly looking at a two place enclosed in the far off future and you sir just made those plans a little easier.
I would like to offer you a position as a marketing and advertising specialist at my competitors gun shop in Yuma. Seriously, please consider this offer.
Ben S
Heron
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2003
- Messages
- 7,545
- Location
- Bauru - Sao Paulo - Brasil
- Aircraft
- Golden Butterfly
- Total Flight Time
- 7.5 h.
There! Now it is all out piss contest . . .
They are all Bensens one way or another . . .genoma thing you know?
Narcise only loves mirrors . . .
The french-american thing is true, it was born after the english-french thingy.
Ande grew stronger after WWII . . .
Raphael is on the loosing side, french operating from Poland, talk about jokes!!!
Carry on boys interval time is long . . .
Heron
but seriously, you guys think the market will consider Forum shenanigans for decisions?
Oh! when in France you better speak something other than English, it is like been in Miami and not speaking spanish.
They are all Bensens one way or another . . .genoma thing you know?
Narcise only loves mirrors . . .
The french-american thing is true, it was born after the english-french thingy.
Ande grew stronger after WWII . . .
Raphael is on the loosing side, french operating from Poland, talk about jokes!!!
Carry on boys interval time is long . . .
Heron
but seriously, you guys think the market will consider Forum shenanigans for decisions?
Oh! when in France you better speak something other than English, it is like been in Miami and not speaking spanish.
Last edited:
ms80831
PRA member since 1973
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2008
- Messages
- 1,546
- Location
- Colorado Springs CO.
- Aircraft
- Cessna 210 +, Xenon RST, Citabria
- Total Flight Time
- 2000+
A few will. What it harms is trust. Customer service after the sale IS an important factor in a buying decision on a product that costs over $100K.
Companies spend millions on their public image. Any competitor would love to have his rival post something like this. What an unearned bonanza of marking gold for them.
STILL, the machine Raphael sells is the best in its class right now. That says and counts for a lot. They are doing many things right. With a better customer service message, they would be unbeatable.
Last edited:
choppergabor
Newbie
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2009
- Messages
- 4,864
- Location
- Sunshine State
- Aircraft
- N65GK Behemoth
- Total Flight Time
- Too few to mention
Lookie I have found the advertisement just for American consumers!
Cool. Kind of telling isn't it
ROFL
Cool. Kind of telling isn't it
ROFL
Last edited:
Passin' Thru
Newbie
Gabi, you are BAD! :first:
choppergabor
Newbie
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2009
- Messages
- 4,864
- Location
- Sunshine State
- Aircraft
- N65GK Behemoth
- Total Flight Time
- Too few to mention
LOL Ben working as hard as I can to change both of those facts
Thank you Pete
Thank you Pete
StanFoster
Active Member
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2003
- Messages
- 16,955
- Location
- Paxton, Il
- Aircraft
- Helicycle N360SF
- Total Flight Time
- 1250
Heron- Gabor can not respond to your comments as he has you on ignore. I will be the mediator between you two. Gabor,.....Heron says you are one fine gentleman and would love to meet you someday and buy you a steak for your belly.
.Heron... Gabor says you are a gentleman also and would like to buy you a stake for your heart........
ha just kidding....
You two.....kiss and make up!!
Stan
.Heron... Gabor says you are a gentleman also and would like to buy you a stake for your heart........
ha just kidding....
You two.....kiss and make up!!
Stan
choppergabor
Newbie
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2009
- Messages
- 4,864
- Location
- Sunshine State
- Aircraft
- N65GK Behemoth
- Total Flight Time
- Too few to mention
Aaaahhhhhhhhhhh if that's his position at this moment it might change back to a no good son of a batch (it won't allow the other word!) as soon as he gets sober. Let's just stay....away
:focus:
gyroplanes
FAA DAR Gyropilot
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2004
- Messages
- 6,055
- Aircraft
- (2) Air Commands, (1) Barnett, (1) Parsons modified 2 place, (1) Beechcraft Sundowner
- Total Flight Time
- 2650
A date for the weekend?
getut
A 'lil twisted
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2006
- Messages
- 682
- Location
- Salisbury, NC
- Aircraft
- Drop Keel Parsons
- Total Flight Time
- 175 gyro / 200 ppg
You guys are hurting your own cause by resorting to some name calling and graphics, but if you have real gripes, which you do, voicing them on a public forum is a great way to get results and a change of behaviour... but not if you have the name calling and graphics which is stuff that will ultimately get this thread locked or deleted entirely.
Then there won't even be any searchable record of those gripes for people in the future.
Then there won't even be any searchable record of those gripes for people in the future.
Last edited:
choppergabor
Newbie
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2009
- Messages
- 4,864
- Location
- Sunshine State
- Aircraft
- N65GK Behemoth
- Total Flight Time
- Too few to mention
Robert I don't see anything offensive there except Raphael's comments that would render the thread being deleted. These are real time unaltered comments that are pretty eye opening if you ask me. As of my "art" (that's what you call it for protecting one's opinion) it is pure unaltered art. Apparently it is somewhat entertaining to some. Most of the time moderators only delete the offensive post anyways. (and I have experience with that!)
Apparently it is somewhat entertaining to some. Most of the time moderators only delete the offensive post anyways. (and I have experience with that!)
Last edited:
Nearly everyone likes to believe his own culture, music, automobile, gyrocopter or whatever is the best.
I was once driving my VW Beetle in France with a French friend on board when on the radio, tuned to a US Armed Forces radio station came the song “load 16 tons and what do you get, another day older and deeper in debt” by Tennessee Ernie Ford.
My friend exclaimed; “You Americans! You steal all of our French songs.”
I’ve heard 16 tons in several European languages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteen_Tons
I was once driving my VW Beetle in France with a French friend on board when on the radio, tuned to a US Armed Forces radio station came the song “load 16 tons and what do you get, another day older and deeper in debt” by Tennessee Ernie Ford.
My friend exclaimed; “You Americans! You steal all of our French songs.”
I’ve heard 16 tons in several European languages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteen_Tons
gyroplanes
FAA DAR Gyropilot
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2004
- Messages
- 6,055
- Aircraft
- (2) Air Commands, (1) Barnett, (1) Parsons modified 2 place, (1) Beechcraft Sundowner
- Total Flight Time
- 2650
I must defend Raphael a little.
I have not yet met any gyro manufacturer that encourages modification of "their" design.
Bensen, Fetters, Brock, Boyette, Vanek, Hollman are some that come to mind. Jerry Barnett got his hackle up when I asked him about landing gear weakness and denied any such weakness. (in spite of several roll-overs)
I have many more anecdotes of this nature.
I have not yet met any gyro manufacturer that encourages modification of "their" design.
Bensen, Fetters, Brock, Boyette, Vanek, Hollman are some that come to mind. Jerry Barnett got his hackle up when I asked him about landing gear weakness and denied any such weakness. (in spite of several roll-overs)
I have many more anecdotes of this nature.
getut
A 'lil twisted
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2006
- Messages
- 682
- Location
- Salisbury, NC
- Aircraft
- Drop Keel Parsons
- Total Flight Time
- 175 gyro / 200 ppg
I think the the stance that Raphael has taken here brings up some real concerns. I would hate to see this thread closed for pushing the limits of what the mods will deem as acceptable. I did find it funny, but a picture of a steaming pile will be offensive to some and name calling already has a history of getting threads canned here.Robert I don't see anything offensive there except Raphael's comments that would render the thread being deleted. These are real time unaltered comments that are pretty eye opening if you ask me. As of my "art" (that's what you do for protecting one's opinion) it is pure unaltered art.
So I'm just saying that keeping the posts strongly worded but civil will have the best chance of having a good outcome for the Xenon on the US market.
Having seen what I have seen here, I know I would not buy one unless there is a sea change in behavior and attitude from Celier aviation. And not just one that shows up as a marketing guru standing behind Raphael with button tied to electrical probes if he gets "off message".