US gyoplane paranoia

ms80831

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Does that big EXPERIMENTAL lettering on the " commercial aerial applicator's " (Crop Duster's) airplane mean he can't charge for spaying pesticide on your crops?

Lots of Aircraft get put in the EXPERIMENTAL category.

51% amateur built

E-LSA (meets LSA performance, but not manufacturing standards)

WarBirds (The were certainly built in a factory)

Crop Dusters.

There is no one size fits all, when referring to Experimental Aircraft.
 
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WaspAir

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We have a gentlemen on the port here who has modified his Pilatus PC-12 rendering it "experimental".
You are absolutely right.
Very good approach, but as you mentioned above,
he de-registered the certified aircraft, and re-registered it as "experimental".

If **** hits the fan, it will be him, not the Pilatus taken to responsibility.
I'm curious about this -- in what experimental category is it registered now? It can't possibly be "Experimental Amateur Built" because he didn't do 51% of the building. An airplane of that type wouldn't be very useful in "Experimental Exhibition", "Experimental Air Racing", "Experimental Market Surveys", or "Experimental Crew Training" so I wouldn't expect it to be registered that way. "Experimental Research and Development / Showing Compliance" only makes sense if you're using the plane to test and develop STCs for sale, but not using the airplane as transportation.

In general, you can't just drop your Standard Airworthiness, do any old mod you wish, and keep flying as usual. It has to fit one of the categories, and there are significant restrictions on use for each.
 

ms80831

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Wasp Air

What Experimental sub category is a War Bird in? A Crop Duster?
 

gyrodeputy

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Registration vs airworthiness not the same thing

Registration vs airworthiness not the same thing

My research shows that there is a distinct difference between registration and airworthiness. Many are confused by this and often make mistakes assocated with the two.

Experminental is NOT the way the aircraft is registered. It is the type of airworthiness that the individual aircraft is given. Standard, expermental and restricted are some of those types. Of course there are sub classifications to the expermental catagories. In addition the FAA can issue to a standard airworthiness a suplimental type certificate or STC. For example: A person has a Cessna 172 and wants to modify it in some way that meets the FAA standards, is done by a A & P mechanic etc, the FAA will issue the STC.

A crop duster may be a modified aircraft that may have had a type certificate but is modified in such a way that it no longer is compliant with the certificate. However, the owner may choose to do experimental airworthiness to make the STC process much simpler and easier to deal with.

There are certain things that are given exceptions for commercial operations like crop dusting. If you ever want to ruffle feathers, try to go after a farmin operation. Farmers have an incredibly powerful and large lobbying group. For example in most states a farmer does not need a commercial drivers licence to drive most commercial vehicles if it is in support of his farming operation. The government (including the FAA) give a lot of lattitude to them because they need it to survive and their lobbiests have convienced the polititians it should be as such.

Often the aircraft then is issued a "restricted" airworthiness certificate. Restricted places in a number of other levels of control or rules for that aircraft as directed by the FAA. One example of restricted could be former military aircraft. They can be either expermental or restricted, but will NEVER be issued a standard airworthiness.

On the other hand, registration is nothing more that the tail number assigned to the aircraft.

That is my research, as previously stated, I have been wrong before, and would love to know if I am wrong on this one.

Stay safe
 

gyrodeputy

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Platipus category or registration???

Platipus category or registration???

I'm curious about this -- in what experimental category is it registered now? It can't possibly be "Experimental Amateur Built" because he didn't do 51% of the building. An airplane of that type wouldn't be very useful in "Experimental Exhibition", "Experimental Air Racing", "Experimental Market Surveys", or "Experimental Crew Training" so I wouldn't expect it to be registered that way. "Experimental Research and Development / Showing Compliance" only makes sense if you're using the plane to test and develop STCs for sale, but not using the airplane as transportation.

In general, you can't just drop your Standard Airworthiness, do any old mod you wish, and keep flying as usual. It has to fit one of the categories, and there are significant restrictions on use for each.
I just looked at the picture...it does not have an "N" number, it has HB-FPG on the tail it's not US or Canada, it is switzerland or liechtenstein. This aircraft is not a US aircraft.
 
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ms80831

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I just looked at the picture...it does not have an "N" number, it has what looks like Canadian registration...who knows what the do???
Heath

I think that was a generic picture. The caption reads, "Here is what one looks like" Says to me, it was not THE specific one.

Looks like HB- FPG. Canada registration begins with C. HB would be Switzerland (Home of Pilatus) or Liechtenstein.
 
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WaspAir

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Wasp Air

What Experimental sub category is a War Bird in? A Crop Duster?
Warbirds are usually "Exhibition and Racing". They never had a Standard Airworthiness certificate to begin with, and were not "converted" to that category.
Crop Dusters are usually "Restricted".
 

ms80831

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Warbirds are usually "Exhibition and Racing". They never had a Standard Airworthiness certificate to begin with, and were not "converted" to that category.
Crop Dusters are usually "Restricted".
Thanks.

Yet warbirds are flown for "transportation" and recreation all the time. Hmmmm.
 
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ms80831

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Back to the Xenon.

It also "never had a Standard Airworthiness certificate to begin with"

I think the real answer is what I said before. An adjustment in the way the factory looks at the US registered Xenons. Seems to me they have been far more beneficial than trouble. And they admittedly have been a heap of trouble.
 

WaspAir

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Thanks.

Yet warbirds are flown for "transportation" and recreation all the time. Hmmmm.
Yes, there are ways to fudge it a bit. You are supposed to file an annual list of planned airshows at which you will exhibit, so many list everything they can find on the calendar, and that lets them fly between sites. You also can do all the proficiency flying you think you need, usually within 300 nm of your base, and sometimes the distinction between proficiency and fun gets thin.

There have been many sailplanes in use in the U.S. that were certified in Europe (not in the U.S.) but imported and registered here in the exhibition and racing category, on the premise that they will be flown in glider contests. The owners would fly them cross-country every chance they could, treating every x-c as practice for a race. U.S. certification through JAR is easier now, so less of that goes on.
 

brett s

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The ag helicopters I flew were all restricted category, none were experimental - some were dual category, standard when spray gear was removed & restricted with it installed.
 

ventana7

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I have heard the FAA has recently been looking into how they can exercise more control over "Exhibition" category aircraft and were going to clamp down somehow on those who were trying to use it as a loophole for aircraft that were not really being used for exhibition.
 
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To Xenon Tom,

My goodness. You are really the one of most ARROGANT and IRRESPECTFUL guy over here. I do not understand such attitude, and such a long list of lies... Who are you to judge me, the company...??? Just a guy that bought a machine to another one that designed it along many years, involving big monies, life sacrifices...So you do not deserve to be a Xenon Owner with such attitude. Please sell your machine, as you say on another place on the forum, you have no time to use it. You prefer your Robi (one of the most unstable helicopter on the planet - Made in USA...even if it is the most popular, it does not mean it is good...), and you probably spend a lot of time on this forum because you have nothing better to do in life... You are a trouble maker, destructive attitude.
No wonder that many Europeans do not like the american attitude.
Thanks God, i do have wonderful friends in the USA, to compensate.

Now let's have a close look at what you call facts...! LIES.

IMPROVEMENT: New Style Doors - The old doors did not hold up in flight. There were several incidents where doors flew off. The factory d not even acknowledge a problem until the noisy Americans raised hell. And even then we had to come up with a better hinge and latch system.
New (actual) doors have been made here, without a single help from the USA, neither for their design. Wrong point. Good try. But is a C.A (CELIER Aviation) job.

IMPROVEMENT: Flexible Pre-rotator - This was totally American designed and installed. Raphael saw it and tested it at Bensen Days and loved it. But instead of using the proven American System (from Sport-Copter) he designed his own (inferior) system.
The system exists in Europe before americans even tried it...True about the fact that I saw it in the USA as well, nothing special with that. True we bought one (Sport Copter)in the USA, tried it, and throw it away, too poor design, too poor performance, too heavy. By the way, in one of our garages this item is somewhere and available for anyone to pick up here. So, looking at that flexible, i believed i could improve it. We made after long research, a contract with a world known specialist of Flexibles (that USA cars and more use too) from Switzerland, several prototypes were made, many tests for the final version that is now made exclusively for us. This is NOT of the shelf item...The RPM allowed beat anyone else, as the possible torque and transmissible power. So again here Tom speaks about things he does not even have a clue. Only trying to put doubts in people brain. What a smart and responsible attitude. A C. A improvement.

IMPROVEMENT: Bendix Reinforcement Collar - American designed and fool-proof. Raphael did not even recognize the problem until we exposed it. Then he did not use ours ... he designed and installed his own inferior one.
Again here, Tom does not understand what he talk about. Our actual system, include a double stage bearing, to create a good momentum holding system, when the US model has a basis one point holding, opposite to the gear contact point, anti-logic ! and of course destroying all around. See photos published earlier by you. Our system is much lighter and efficient. Oh, i forgot, the US philosophy is always: bigger is better... :) This is why we see flying monsters that requires 200 hp to lift a poor payload / empty weight ratio... Another C.A improvement.

IMPROVEMENT: Turbo Inner Cooler (for RST model) - This provides forced cooling air into the turbo and modifies the waste gate to better adjust to altitude. WE DID IT FIRST. Raphael designed his own without altitude compensation!
There is no relation between an Inner cooler (Intercooler) and waste gaste... The first Intercooler was made in accordance with us by Mike Bantum in Florida, our actual representative. But we desired to improve its efficiency, and we did it the right way. See some photos in our website. There is NO altitude compensating deveice other than the original waste gate. Tom GO BACK to your mechanic lessons.

IMPROVEMENT: Reinforced Turbo Oil Sump - Provides more support for flanged tube that connects to engine to relieve some of the mechanical advantagethat can cause the tube to fail as a result of engine vibration. ANOTHER US IMPROVEMENT.

Unfortunately for you Tom, this was done directly from the factory. Maybe you thought about it, well done, but not at your credit.

IMPROVEMENT: Better Fuel Filtering - to replace the factory supplied paper canisters. In the US we switched to a dual port marine fuel filter assembly with a spin-on filter element. It provides better filtering and water separation, with a place to drain off water if it accumulates. ANOTHER US MOD!
This is a true US and stupid mod ! If it was that smart, we may have integrate it. Why we did not ? Simply because it is expensive for nothing, heavy for nothing (oups sorry, this is the american way). Our "basic"dual filtration system is absolutely proven today, as for a few grams of technology, the special filtration fiber, does react with fuel dirt by changing color, making it so easy to spot when change becomes necessary. How much it cost ? 3 Euros... Weight ? 25 gr...safe and proven. Besides, our fuel tanks are made from certified and fuel and fire proof resins, that DO NOT attract moisture like US models... Also, each of our tanks is equiped with a low point and a special shape with drain valve, to guaranty to catch the big dirts. It works and is approved today by civil aviation. NOT A USA IMPROVEMENT BUT DEGRADATION of design.

IMPROVEMENT: Primary Fuel Pump On/Off Switch - It is a safety switch that remains on until you intentionally lift the cover to turn it off. It allows you to turn on the master switch without having the pump run the entire time. AN AMERICAN
MOD!

THIS IS THE MOST STUPID AND DANGEROUS MOD YOU COULD COME UP WITH. Why, simply because this is playing with life. Just imagine a passenger curious about this strange switch and test it... The proper way to use avionics without having the pump running by default (a safety good thing) is so simply by installing a switch for direct supply to avionics. And we do it since long time on customer request.
You are now demonstrating Tom, that indeed you are a dangerous person for aviation.



IMPROVEMENT: Heavier Trim Spring for pitch trim to give more authority. YOU GUESSED IT! First "made in America".
You threat Europeans like piece of ****, you deserve the boomerang effect Tom. The trim spring improvement was also made by C.A. If you did or someone did it in the US in parallel, great no problem, but no one FROM the USA told us about... Like usual, you NEVER communicate with us. Guess why your website Xenon-owners is NOT linked in our manufacturer website...??? guess why ??? dont you think the Xenon owners would deserve a bit more intelligent attitude from you regarding us ? Dont you think it would be smarter to collaborate intelligently with us ??? Nooooo.......... too hard for you and your stupid proud. All other distributors / owners aournd the workd do the right way with us... YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE ALONE. I RECOMMEND THE XENON OWNERS TO HELP HIM CHANGE HIS ATTITUDE or to initiate another website in connection with us. As we are very open and happy to communicate both ways.

IMPROVEMENT: New Location for Cyclic Strap - We did this first. Then got word that the factory had an ingenious idea for the same thing. (The cyclic strap did not do a good job of keeping the rotor head steady during taxi operations.)
Again, poor Tom...you lose your mind. This was done looonnng ago... !!! NO USA MOD.

IMPROVEMENT: Larger Oil Cooler - Many owners experienced red-lining oil temperatures. THE FACTORY DENIED THERE WAS A PROBLEM. We adapted to a large oil cooler for better temps. Now the factory acknowledges it.

This USA mod is a non sense. Because adaptating car radiator simply do not work. They are not designed for air use, for flow problems. Instead since looonnng time ago we use a dual ROTAX radiator, for those who need to fly in hot places. WE DO NOT acknoledge this USA MOD. Pure invention from Tom.

IMPROVEMENT: Split Cowling - If you've ever had to get to the Xenon engine and needed more room than the two access panels give you ... then you know the hassle involved in removing the main cowling! You have to remove the prop, pre-rotator assembly, push-rods and many other items to get it off. With the split cowling modification you can easily remove each half of the cowling. We did it here FIRST!
Another cool lie from Tom. The story is this: it is true that it was not easy to access completely to the engine for an annual check for exemple. Customers around the world did ask for this improvement. So we did modify our molds to implement that mod. I think Tom made any molds ??? I have heard that some customers decided to modify it directly, saving the cost to change them. No problem with that. Understandable.
Bottom of the line = customers smart request = correction from the manufacturer.

IMPROVEMENT: Throttle Cable Splitter - It is recommended that a new throttle cable be run to a new splitter which branches out to the dual carbs. The splitter is available through Lockwood Aviation Supply. It is more precise than the splitter built by Celier Aviation.
NOT APPROVED ! But we are intelligent to have ordered one from Lockwood, but again that part was thrown away, we lost out time and money. We admit, that our early version was not good. So, we went to the drawing board, and we designed a smart part. Today approved by CAA (civil aviation authority). Why we did that ? Simply because by mesuring the Rotax vibration frequency, we discovered that it was necessary to stabilize the splitter. This is why today our splitter is made from aircraft certified tube (the outer gold part) and inside is a smart bronze and with an exact weight, to "sing" accordingly to the Rotax harmonics. Bye bye your " improvement" ...
C.A. job is correct.

IMPROVEMENT: In-Line Closed Air Intake System - The old FACTORY system pre-heated air and was susceptible to dust and debris. For cooler intake air and more air volume, US owners added a naca vent, then directed air through a K&N Universal Cold Air Intake Assembly.
The system you talk about was indeed wrong. That was the early stage of developement of the now famous RST. Indeed, your mod IS NOT implemented by the factory for dynamic flow reasons. We of course tried that too. But our actual system, provides a dynamic input to the turbo, thus discharging it from unnecessary forces, making a longer turbo TBO...
Wrong USA mod.

IMPROVEMENT: Fuel Check Valves - If you want true redundancy in your fuel system, you need to extend the fuel lines from the output of your fuel pumps and install check valves in each line along with pressure sensors. Then, one of the lines fail, the good pump will not pump back through the bad line. The pressure sensors will alert you to the bad side immediately. ANOTHER US MOD!

This was done long ago for the European German market as it is obligatory. For the other countries was not. We simply later decided to integrate it as standard. Beside the actual RST fuel pumps DO integrate a automatic valve. NOT USA IMPROVEMENT, but C.A.

IMPROVEMENT: Turbo Oil Check Valve - Xenon RST Turbo units do not have seals in them. So there is nothing to keep oil from flowing into the "dry" side (air intake) of the turbo. The new check valve installed in-line with the turbo oil line will keep oil from siphoning back into the air chamber, GLORY TO THE US!
Glory to the US... Poor Tom...
In fact i will start to forgive him as i see his technology level is close to null...
But indeed, we do have a valve. The Turbo oil valve is original from Rotax Austria, and was adapted to the RST engine, and by the way the correct name for this engine today is: CA912ULT, as it was re-certified. We dont do mods just like that here in Poland... So the valve is C.A. made but with internal Rotax parts.


IMPROVEMENT: Improved Door Hinge Pins - The hinge pins should be replaced with bolts of the diameter so a locking nut can be used. Previous door hinge pins loosened from vibration AND EVEN THE NEW DOORS FLEW OFF. God Bless the USA.
Yes i will repeat after Tom : May God bless america... Big need !
This is also done by the factory since long time. But in the USA Tom feels the Xenon gourou, and do not need to communicate with the factory, otherwise he would have known it much before. Anyway, he is smart enough to have done the mod. No glory.
Our doors DO NOT fly off, when people simply do not forget to close them !!!!!
Would anyone want to say that our certification people at the CAA dont know they job ?
I would love to see any american gyro try pass our certification... Big laugh...

IMPROVEMENT: Straight Exhaust Pipes - The original muffler on the Xenons have been know to crack around the mounting flang where or around the weld that holds on the pipe which ataches to the engine. This occurs because the muffler hangs so far out without adequate reinforcement. The muffler also gets very hot and causes high temperatures under the engine cowling. WE BUILT NEW STRAIGHT PIPES FOR BETTER POWER AND LESS HEAT!


What a beautiful final lie Tom !
Indeed, i will agree that the earlier exhaust was not perfect. Yes we had some cracks, yes it was heating things around.
YES I DESIGNED the new and perfect exhaust, as for all the rest of the system. You may have copied what we have done here, jalous like you are about me, as you may never have accomplished anything like it in your life... Where is the point of jalousy...??? Shall i be jalous that an american first steped on the moon ??? Tell me more about the Wright Brother, with respect for them...the American big mouth like to say about them to be the first motorized airplane in the air...ah aha... But french Clement Ader was much before...But for sure, we are not as good as you to lie, and to organize the " show" and let people believe what is right to believe, even if it is not true.
I now want to apologize here for the American people, as i do love you and your country. So much achievement was done over there. I simply put here Tom back in its cage, where he should stay humble and quiet.

And i could go on and on...hum, i read this somewhere up...

So TOM, as per ALL the previous messages to you, you do not change, you like to be the trouble maker, the gourou, to get the credit of imaginative improvements. Fine. But you always refused to come over here, face to face with the Xenon designer and its wonderful and dedicated team, that with your stupid message you insult deeply and repeatedly without respect. You do not feel necessary to have ANY contact with the factory...what an idiot attitude for someone driving the Xenon-owner forum.
We are finalysing our plans to be back in the USA very soon, as we open our own company there. We will then be able to supply kits, spare parts, advices, customer support. We will definitely built another Xenon-owner website, so you shall be forgetten. Fo the best of all and owners.
This is the very best answer and motivation for the american people, that we do not abandon no one, we are proud of having good fans in the USA, and they deserve that we make more efforts.
As we do care very much about our customers, we also do acknoledge our mistakes and snags, we do have the strong motivation to improve all that is possible.

I hope readers will understand my fight back, i do not tolerate to sacrifice my time and life for such guy like TOM lies and insults. But things need to be put back on tracks.
Critisize is easy in an instant and for free, desiging and building a winner machine needs years and millions...

Bye Tom.
 

Heron

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Raphael
Focus your energy and truck on.
Thanks for taking time to explain your side of the story.
Heron
 

choppergabor

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Raphael I resent you calling Tom one of the most arrogant. I own that title! So bug off of him. Just between you and I you haven't created a lot of potential US buyers with your America bashing. I am also European origin so I do understand your superiority complex since I grew up being taught just that. It is obvious you are the one who has no clue of the American ingenuity and practicality. So let me enlighten you about how things are done in the real world. We don't care about your sacrifices and money you have spent to bring the machine alive. We care about the outcome and the performance. We care about getting value for our money. So when you don't deliver we complain and start making modifications. So get off your high horse for a second and make friends instead of enemies here in the US. They might be the ones (again) who will save your butt. Contrary to the fact that obviously in your mind they are all brainless, useless, know nothing about noting. BTW. If you don't like us that much you can boycott the US by not using another great Polish (or was that too American??? Well Al Gore claimed it to be his once.... :)) invention the internet!
 
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Thanks Heron, appreciated,
bye Choppergabor. No time to lose with you.
Some guys here are specialist to critisize true designers / manufacturers, when these same guys have not much done by themselves. Easy !
No wonder that we are not that interested to participate in this forum...
See you soon America. Invitation to all, big mouths included to meet us.
For sure Heron, i and we do focus hard on a great future. Smilling faces will get red soon... Wait and see.
 

Heron

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No need to blame de Forum, it is some members that have a different attitude and more colorfull ways.
As a manufacturer, your product says it all, mistakes or not.
Every machine presented brings us closer to the perfect gyro and add options to the public.
Gabor knows it all, he is European and American indoctrinated, best of both Worlds and he can rewrite the Bible.
So silly to tie public perception of a machine with behavior on this Forum . . .I have a friend that I love dearly that thinks the same, but he is coming around and I will see the day he comes back posting.
This Forum is the best source for gyro lovers in the World.
Xenon is a great machine and
Gabor is a very important member of this Schoolyard of Ours.
thanks
Heron
 

getut

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Well, I think that post from Raphael kicked me over the edge. Even if money were no object, I would never give any of it to them. I couldn't live with myself knowing I had funded the sharpening and honing that anti-American sentiment, and better-than-thou arrogance.

An experimental rating is something that is a PLUS to many people in the US market. I know of many here in the US, who take delight in modifying their aircraft. Myself included. Many of also call and discuss the ramifications of our modifications with the designer of the aircraft and talk it over amongst many people before making a change. But we do so WILLINGLY. Keep in mind, I don't own a Xenon, but trying to tell us that we don't touch OUR MACHINE without calling the factory is ludicrous. Once the money has changed hands you lose the right to ANYTHING with that aircraft.

Raphael, if you talk to people with respect, lose the better-than-thou attitude, and show that you can discuss the TRUE value of a modification in an open-minded and un-prejudiced fashion, I think people would be knocking at your door to get your "take" on modifications they are thinking about making. Someone's credentials in aircraft design don't mean squat. Discuss ideas on the merit of the design and be honest. Some of the best ideas for things come from people who can look at something from a different "angle".

Shooting everything down, and bad mouthing everything because it didn't come from your mind or because you haven't had the opportunity to change the design .01% to be able to call it yours will, and obviously IS, driving everyone away. Tell them them they CAN'T do it and they'll probably laugh at you. Tell them they can't do it without your permission and you'll be lucky if they ONLY laugh.

Most American designers will discuss any idea that you have. They will discuss it openly and honestly. If they like it they will tell you. If they dislike it, they'll tell you that too. But very seldom is there any hint of "do it my way or hit the highway". That says quite a bit for them.

Do some of those things and perceptions might change, but as it stands now and from what I have seen of you, I couldn't live with myself if I gave you any of my money, even if I were to receive the best aircraft known to man for that money.
 
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C. Beaty

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Hmmm…………..2 blade, underslung teetering rotor, pusher engine, tricycle landing gear. Most likely using a 5200 series double row, tapered race ball bearing in a bearing block below the teeter pivot.

It’s a Bensen!
 

bmoore2156

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Hmmm…………..2 blade, underslung teetering rotor, pusher engine, tricycle landing gear. Most likely using a 5200 series double row, tapered race ball bearing in a bearing block below the teeter pivot.

It’s a Bensen!
No it's not! Bensens don't have doors. :)
 
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